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#761353 - 11/10/03 04:57 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
The courts have ruled there is a constitutional right of individual ownership for arms that 1) can be used in a state militia; and 2) can reasonably be expected to used effectively against an encroaching government.

WMDs and rocket-propelled grenades are in. Pistols are out.

Suitcase nuclear weapons are interesting. It is likely that the U.S. government has no authority to ban them. But they are not permitted under international law. But, then, who cares about international law?

Anthrax? beats me.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#761354 - 11/10/03 04:58 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
WMDs and rocket-propelled grenades are in. Pistols are out. [/b]
Utter nonsense.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761355 - 11/10/03 04:59 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
...is to just walk away (too bad my name's not Renee).
[/b]
Wasn't that recorded by Left Banke? a propos? \:D [/b]
Hey, cool. That does it. I'm changing my name. :p I've got the most wonderful recording of that song done by David Wilcox & Pepe d'Augustino.

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#761356 - 11/10/03 05:00 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
See JB, no nonsense here: there is no excuse and even the courts agree!
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761357 - 11/10/03 05:20 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
See JB, no nonsense here: there is no excuse and even the courts agree! [/b]
Wrong. But I don't have time to go into this right now.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761358 - 11/10/03 05:29 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
No need for any explanation right now or any time. You see, it's all quite irrelevant if the government choses to encroach on anyone's rights. They'll do it anyway through the wisdom of the *Patriot Act* and tell everyone how good they really feel because the country still has Wal-Mart to cater to all its material needs.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761359 - 11/10/03 05:37 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Whatever. :rolleyes:
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761360 - 11/10/03 05:57 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Whatever. :rolleyes: [/b]
That's the best, if not the most honest, excuse I have heard yet. JB, as I have suspected all along, you really are a decent chap.
\:\)
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761361 - 11/10/03 06:35 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Quoting myself! \:D

 Quote:
I can't help but think that even if you don't like what others say, or the insults which I agree are all too frequent, it is always enlightening to know what other people are thinking. You get that on this forum, warts and all.
With all that followed, after I said this, I can't help but think I was right, for what it's worth.

Now, where's that frog? Have we all been "enlightened", warts and all? \:D

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#761362 - 11/10/03 07:51 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
gryphon,

Forgive me if I only quote one part of your very eloquent post, but I thought it sort of sums it all up. You said:

 Quote:
Thereís no need to go into a detailed litany of people like benedict did. Just because we disagree with someone on a topic or two doesnít mean we donít like them. Thereís nothing better Iíd like than to have a good steak dinner with kathyk or Ariel or bcarey, swap stories over a bottle or two of wine, talk about our families and music. Maybe even about politics or religion. But because we have different opinions doesnít mean we arenít or canít be friends. After a rough start, I think Ariel realizes this, and I would hope that kathyk and bcarey and everyone else does as well. As for myself Iíve said a few things that Iíve regretted later. Not necessarily the content of the post, but sometimes the tone. And Iíve even on occasion apologized for the way I might have said something, but not for my views. And I donít expect anyone else to, either, but I do expect them to be able to back up what they say, especially if they accuse someone else of something.
I believe it is important to remember, that we are just ordinary people (on a forum) trying to grasp an understanding of where the other person is coming from, regardless of each person's life experiences, our country, cultural heritage, religious affiliation (or lack of), and how this will impact our lives now and in generations to come.

I don't know about the rest of you, but personally, I find it both enlightening and fascinating. I really do want to hear what each person has to say, whether I agree or disagee (sometimes vehemently).

It might behoove us all to remember that words spoken with the loudest voices sometime are not heard. Yell at your children and in fear of your rath, they do not hear. They just tune out. Speak in a reaonable voice, and they just might comprehend what you are saying.

Friends? Yes! I agree!

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#761363 - 11/10/03 08:13 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Very nice, bcarey.

\:\) Jodi

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#761364 - 11/10/03 09:52 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Renauda wrote:
 Quote:
No, I am not a liberal and I resent being referred to as one since it is so typically partisan. Rather, I would take your semi-automatic and automatic weapons away. Not very liberal of me is it?
If you are prepared to fight, and die for that belief, come ahead.

The right to possess and bear arms goes back to the dawn of time, it is the right of self defense. Now, you can get silly with your extrapolation of logic, as Shant has done with WMD, but personal weapons are just that - personal.

You know, this is a nation that collided ona series of beliefs in the 1860s, and still didn't resolve all their differences 655,000 dead men later.

At least in the South, the right to own firearms runs at least as deep as the passions in 1860, if not deeper.

Even Grant had enough sense to let the former Confederates keep their personal weapons.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#761365 - 11/10/03 10:40 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
Not all Americans agree that the ammendment protects an individual's "right to bear arms"[/b]
Some people believe in the tooth fairy, too. The Bill of Rights are all individual guarantees, and it has never been ruled differently. Not only can I show you contemporaneous writings by the same authors that corroborate this but the many individual state constitutions, such as Michigan's, that explicitly guarantee the right of the individual to own firearms for self-protection. But that isn't the argument here (especially since our right to bear arms is to protect ourselves from the government as much as anything else). It was "America's culture of violence" when in actuality France has far more crime than America. Yes, France's murder rate is 70% of America's (3.9 v 5.6) but their other crime overwhelms the US to garner it the 66% increase to get it up to the 4,000 v. 7,000 level. For example violent theft.
 Quote:
In the US the rate is 10/100,000- the highest in the developed world. Wouldn't have anything to do with the proliferation of guns (and hand guns in particular) in the US?
[/b]
Uh, no, take a look at countries such as Switzerland where they all have guns and the average Joe has fully-automatic machine guns and ammunition in his closet. They don't go on murderous rampages, do they? Besides, I already told you it was 5.6, not 10. Scotland's is 15.3, heck, even Luxembourg is higher at 11.3. And actually France's rate is rising. In 2002 it was 4.0, but I am using 2001 figures because 2002 figures aren't in for all countries yet. So really what we're talking about is that the US has a .0016% of population higher murder rate. And actually I see that Canada is 4.1, not less than 2 as you stated, so you're fairly close to the US, too. You're even more murderous than France up there. You barbarians!

But I digress.
 Quote:
No, I am not a liberal and I resent being referred to as one[/b]
Then I apologize. But you can surely understand my confusion when, in reply to the assertion that this is becoming a right-wing haven, you said "Not if I can help it. This *Savoyard* hasn't even started to scrap." It was an honest mistake, and is the only reason I mentioned your name in with the liberal crowd. I can certainly understand your resentment, and I humbly apologize once again.
 Quote:
Rather, I would take your semi-automatic and automatic weapons away. Not very liberal of me is it? [/b]
Oh, quite. You and Ted Kennedy would get along famously! :p
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761366 - 11/10/03 10:50 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I am particularly entertained by the notion that the Miller Decision affirms my right to own a bazooka but not a handgun. The ruling was based on the fact that a sawed-off shotgun is not exactly standard military issue. Sidearms, on the other hand, always have been along with quite a bit else. However, Shantinik always did apply logic in ways unimagined by most of us. Fun house logic is what it appears to be.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761367 - 11/10/03 11:08 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Yes, on occasion I have thought about posting a (too) lengthy discussion of the Miller Decision in response to something or the other here, but have never gotten around to it. Not only does it confirm our right to own the equivalent of current military firearms, but if it hadn't been a default decision it most probably would have come out entirely different! That entire thing was screwed up and should be reheard in the courts, even though today's courts are far more liberal.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761368 - 11/10/03 11:14 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
oh shoot! wrong thread
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, √ēun (apple in Estonian)

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#761369 - 11/10/03 11:46 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
[QUOTE]Some people believe in the tooth fairy, too.... And actually I see that Canada is 4.1, not less than 2 as you stated, so you're fairly close to the US, too. You're even more murderous than France up there. You barbarians! ....
You and Ted Kennedy would get along famously! :p [/b]
Do you believe in the tooth fairy? I don't. But I understand you believe in the right of private property, so do I. If you really need guns... well, you seem like a responsible person so I guess they can let you have your private property so as to avoid another civil war.

As of last Wednesday the murder rate in Canada was the same as in the UK- 2/100,000 according to a Special report that I watched on our "public" broadcasting station the CBC. It said the US is 10/100,000 so I will believe that number.

I actually would like to sit down with Ted and hear a few of his stories- I'm sure he has a few good ones- especially about how his father ran guns to the Provo IRA during the Irish Civil War, ran a bottlegging operation during prohibition, and was a Nazi sympathizer prior to WWII. I wwould also like to hear first hand from a member of a family whose strong religious affiliations became a matter of patiotic concern for the more conservative elements of the country when his brother sought and won the presidency. You see I am old enough to remember that election and what sort of religious intolerance was published in the press at the time.

I'm sure too that as a good Irishman Ted and I would have a couple of drams while I listen.

No need to get mad- just enjoy the fireworks. \:\)
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761370 - 11/10/03 11:50 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Renauda, can you cite those figures someplace? I mean, where did the CBC get them from? Just because they broadcast Red Green doesn't mean they can always be trusted. :p

My favorite Ted Kennedy story: as you may know he is on the Judiciary Committee. So he's interviewing a judicial candidate and asks his opinion of the Second Amendment. The guy (and I wish I could remember which one it was, but I watched it) told him that it was a personal guarantee that ensured the common man could fight against the government if needed. Ol' Ted was apoplectic! It was hilarious, and he demanded that the guy apologize to him and all of America. He didn't.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761371 - 11/10/03 11:57 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
With pleasure but I'm sure you won't like it:

http://www.cbc.ca/natureofthings/show_murder.html

In the meantime "keep your stick on the ice." :p
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761372 - 11/11/03 12:07 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Several years ago, a small town on the outskirts of Atlanta was facing a rising crime rate due to being located so close to Atlanta, and Atlanta creeping up against them. They made national news coverage with their solution, mostly because the liberal press thought they were going to get to come back in a year and laugh at them.

The national media called the town "backward", "ignorant", and in general portrayed them as nothing more than a bunch of inbred idiots who didn't know any better. What had they done to cause all this attention? They passed a law *requiring* every citizen to have a handgun.

Oh, the news media went wild! The assured the nation they would be back in one year to report on what a failure it would be. But the news media never came back. They *still* haven't gone back. Here's why:

The new law made it a misdemeanor to not have a handgun in the home. If someone broke into your home, when the police arrived to investigate, they had to ask to see your handgun. If you didn't produce one, you were given a steep fine.

When the first year was up, the news media wouldn't report what happened. Crime dropped almost totally to zero. They had been plagued with home invasions - not a single one occurred. Burglaries had been off the charts - not a single burlary occurred. Some residents wore their handguns out in the open, in holsters. They'd walk down the street with their guns strapped on. That was in the late 80s. Today, it is still against the law to not own a handgun, and to not have one in the home. And today, the crime rate in Kennesaw is *still* almost nonexistent.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#761373 - 11/11/03 12:09 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
I didn't see any statistics, nor obviously where they came from, in your link. However you can view my sources by looking at Interpol and other actual police organization figures. Interpol says you're at a 4.1 murder rate per 100,000. Interpol states that the US rate is 5.6, which exactly matches the FBI Uniform Crime Reporting statistics. And remember, in Scotland they're killing each other right and left with their assault weapons (frozen haggis, I think), at a rate three times that of the US!!! Obviously we must impose a five-day waiting period on haggis!

So if the FBI reports 5.6, and Interpol reports 5.6, where is this Elliot Leyton guy getting his 10 number from? And why does he think it is the highest murder rate of any civilized country? It is far from that. I gave just a couple of examples of countries that were higher. There are lots more. Similarly, where is he getting his Canadian numbers from that are actually less than half your actual homocide numbers?! Or are you telling me there's just a group in Lyon, France that's throwing darts at various Canadian phone books and declaring them "murdered" to inflate your homocide rate. I knew they couldn't be trusted!
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761374 - 11/11/03 01:02 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
the *Patriot Act* [/b]
The Patriot Act? Do you even know what it entails, what it says exactly? I wouldn't think so by your statement. I'm surprized by your remark. I would expect this from a liberal who complained that Bush has done nothing to make the country safer from terrorism, while at the same time is complaining that Bush is enacting laws to combat terrorism that go too far.

And this admonishment comes from a country that is so interested in its citizen's rights that it fully protects such basic things as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and self protection. Or am I confusing you with someone else?

Hey, maybe you really are a liberal? :p
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761375 - 11/11/03 01:48 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
They passed a law *requiring* every citizen to have a handgun....The new law made it a misdemeanor to not have a handgun in the home. If someone broke into your home, when the police arrived to investigate, they had to ask to see your handgun. If you didn't produce one, you were given a steep fine.
[/b]
Strange, coming from people who do not like government interfering in their daily lives. Did they also give out civic citations signed by the mayor and Sherriff for those protecting themselves and their families with S&W .454 Casulls? What about those who preferred a 20 or 12 guage shotgun for home defence or were they fined for carrying inadequate *insurance*?

Gryphon:

I have no idea where he got his numbers and I really don't care. For all I know I may have misheard his statement and they may have been X:1 million, although I don't think so. Leyton was lecturing to some University students and stated that the murder rate in Newfoundland was 1:100K and that the Canadian stat was 2:100K as was Britain's (Scotland didn't count I guess because it is not yet a sovereign nation).

I actually don't know much about the Patriot Act except that it was apparently used to deport a bonafide Canadian citizen who was legally transiting JFK Airport en route home to Ottawa back to his country of birth, Syria, where he was tortured and languished in a Damascus cell for a year before being brought back to Canada. Why would erstwhile civil servants deport a Canadian to Syria in spite receiving confirmation that he was who he said he was? It is one thing to deport someone carrying false papers back to their country of birth but quite another to deport them back there if they travelling with legal documents proving that they were legal citizens of another. All the facts have yet to come on this case so there may very well be Canadian collusion or gross incompetence/negligence involved. It would not surprise me either way.

Here's how we see it here:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/arar_statement.html

In case Big Brother is reading this under the Telecomm Act and I really want to show that I not a liberal, does anyone here have the music and words for the *Internationale* in English? I only have the Russian version.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761376 - 11/11/03 01:54 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
I am old enough to remember that election and what sort of religious intolerance was published in the press at the time.[/b]
Religious intolerance? Please, you make it too easy. The question was whether Kennedy, a Catholic, would be loyal to the US and uphold our laws first or whether he would follow the pope and the Catholic Church. Gee, I can't think of any parallel situations today, can you?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761377 - 11/11/03 02:06 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Gee you're really having fun tonight trying to get under my nails. No I can't think of an similar situation today, at least not here where a person's religious affiliation or non affiliation is not an issue and hasn't been for quite some time.

Sorry...hey, did I hear a mouse trap snap? You have to be more careful when you set those things Gryphon, they sometimes snap back on your fingers. :p
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761378 - 11/11/03 09:44 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
Gee you're really having fun tonight trying to get under my nails.[/b]
Sorry, I think I'm feisty because my wife is still angry about that whole Reagan picture thing. You know when mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761379 - 11/11/03 10:21 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
She makes your life hell because of a television show?

Goodness me. Maybe she needs to reset her priorities.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#761380 - 11/11/03 10:30 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
As usual JA comes to play tennis with a set of golf clubs. :rolleyes:

lb

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#761381 - 11/11/03 10:40 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
John Andrew.. maybe you could tell us a little about yourself. I was so surprised to read you had a teenage son. Why are you for the democrats? \:\)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, √ēun (apple in Estonian)

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#761382 - 11/11/03 12:35 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by gryphon: You know when mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.[/b]
Truer words were never spoken.

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