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#761383 - 11/11/03 12:56 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
John Andrew.. maybe you could tell us a little about yourself. I was so surprised to read you had a teenage son. Why are you for the democrats? \:\) [/b]
What would you like to know, apple? Married, three kids, two daughters and a son. Live outside of Palm Springs, CA.

I am not for the Democrats per se. I do, though, have a pretty strong sense of my own values. If I compare what Mr. Bush has done with the values expressed in the Al Gore speech that pique posted in another thread, my values tend to agree with Al Gore.

I don't understand how any American could not have the values that are expressed in that speech. Nor do I understand how any American can support what Mr. Bush has done to this country. I think the damage is deep and long lasting.

However, this does not mean I think the Democrats are the answer -- except as the only viable alternative to stop the hemorrhaging,
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#761384 - 11/11/03 01:11 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
Why would erstwhile civil servants deport a Canadian to Syria in spite receiving confirmation that he was who he said he was?[/b]
Whoa, pardner. I read the links you sent me as well as others related to the case. It appears to me that your RCMP may have given some information on this guy the US authorities that caused his deportation. I saw questions about whether the RCMP also misled authorities here and there and hampered Arar's return to Canada. I also see that Prime Minister Chrétien said that he is adamant that he will not allow an independent inquiry into the case of Arar. What's up with that?

"Opposition MPs...say Canadians need to know what the RCMP or the Canadian Security Intelligence Service had to do with the [deportation]...Canadian Alliance Leader Stephen Harper says the government is trying to hide something...U.S. officials say they deported Arar because they suspected him of being a terrorist based on information from several intelligence sources. Arar says the Americans had a copy of the lease for his Ottawa apartment." The RCMP broke into Abdullah Almalki's house a couple of months before he was arrested in Syria, too.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761385 - 11/11/03 01:31 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Gryphon:

Read what I said earlier "all the facts have yet to come on this" and "there may be Canadian gross incompetence/negligence" at play. For once, I think the Opposition is right- the Government is hiding something which is embarrassing. In any case if there was suspicion (and so far the Solicitor General insists that he was not under investigation by either the RCMP or CSIS) Arar should have been deported to Canada not Syria. Didn't even have to do that- he was in transit awaiting a flight back to Canada in the airport. Why was he not turned over to Canadian authorities is the question at hand.

If Chretien is PM at the end of next week it will be a long time- expect to hear his final resignation in the next week or so. Paul Martin will Canada's new PM after the weekend anyway.

There is growing pressure form all sides for a public inquiry in this and the William Sampson case. If one takes place there will a lot of red faces- therefore Ottawa is promising an internal inquiry. Not the least of which be that it will be alleged or maybe even discovered that US intelligence agencies are conducting covert intelligence gathering on Canadian citizens under the noses of and with the benign collusion of the RCMP and CSIS, Dept of Foreign Affairs and the Privy Council. Of course The government does not want a full public inquiry as will It will potentially become an issue of national sovereignty. Think of the ensuing international scandal if Canada were obliged by its own legal sytem to expel US citizens or diplomats for espionage activities on its soil.

Not only will the American government have to deny but so too will the Canadian government. Very, very embarrassing no matter what side of the border you reside.

Sorry to hear that your spouse was not enthusiastic about your Ronald Reagan picture. My was the same over my picture of Trotsky- but she got over it.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761386 - 11/11/03 05:31 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:


In case Big Brother is reading this under the Telecomm Act and I really want to show that I not a liberal, does anyone here have the music and words for the *Internationale* in English? I only have the Russian version. [/b]
Here goes: (I have some wonderful recordings, too
\:\) )

The Internationale [variant words in square brackets]

Arise ye workers [starvelings] from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth [forthwith] the old tradition [conditions]
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.

No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side.

No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty [give up their booty]
And give to all a happier lot.
Each [those] at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot.

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#761387 - 11/11/03 05:35 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Renauda wrote:
 Quote:
No, I am not a liberal and I resent being referred to as one since it is so typically partisan. Rather, I would take your semi-automatic and automatic weapons away. Not very liberal of me is it?
If you are prepared to fight, and die for that belief, come ahead.

The right to possess and bear arms goes back to the dawn of time, it is the right of self defense. Now, you can get silly with your extrapolation of logic, as Shant has done with WMD, but personal weapons are just that - personal. [/b]
Now there are state constitutions that explicitly provide for possession of weapons to be used in self-defense, but you know as well as I do that the U.S. Constitution explicitly does NOT make such a provision, as is well-established in case law.

Now who's getting silly?

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#761388 - 11/11/03 05:40 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
The US Constitution does affirm the individual right to own and bear arms. The purpose for that owning and bearing is not explicitly circumscribed.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761389 - 11/11/03 05:44 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Jolly is correct, Shantinik. Self-defense means against another man or the state or another state. We do explicitly have the right to own arms.

Now who's getting silly? You are.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#761390 - 11/11/03 05:47 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Why thank you for the lyrics Shantinik. ;\)

I thought that Jolly established yesterday that this argument over guns was actually over private property rights. As you had demonstrated to my satisfaction at least, that the ammendment guaranteed the right of the people to bear arms against government encroachment on such things as the right to own and possess private property. Wasn't that what the Civil War was all about?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761391 - 11/11/03 06:49 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
The US Constitution does affirm the individual right to own and bear arms. The purpose for that owning and bearing is not explicitly circumscribed. [/b]
True. But Miller is pretty clear about the context for individual ownership. And that view has been well-established within the federal courts for more than 60 years:

.

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.

The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power -- "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress." With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia -- civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time. [Citing further sources, e.g., the Virginia Act of October 1785 providing for a Militia of "all free male persons between the ages of eighteen and fifty years," with certain exceptions.]"

But, Jolly, you are correct, they can be possessed for personal self-defense, but AGAINST GOVERNMENTS, not individuals.

Suitcase nukes, anyone?

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#761392 - 11/11/03 07:00 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
they can be possessed for personal self-defense, but AGAINST GOVERNMENTS, not individuals.[/b]
There is no proscription against using them against an individual.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761393 - 11/11/03 07:06 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by Comrad shantinik: The Internationale [variant words in square brackets]

Arise ye workers [starvelings] from your slumbers
Arise ye prisoners of want
For reason in revolt now thunders
And at last ends the age of cant.
Away with all your superstitions
Servile masses arise, arise
We'll change henceforth [forthwith] the old tradition [conditions]
And spurn the dust to win the prize.

So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally
And the last fight let us face
The Internationale unites the human race.

No more deluded by reaction
On tyrants only we'll make war
The soldiers too will take strike action
They'll break ranks and fight no more
And if those cannibals keep trying
To sacrifice us to their pride
They soon shall hear the bullets flying
We'll shoot the generals on our own side.

No saviour from on high delivers
No faith have we in prince or peer
Our own right hand the chains must shiver
Chains of hatred, greed and fear
E'er the thieves will out with their booty [give up their booty]
And give to all a happier lot.
Each [those] at the forge must do their duty
And we'll strike while the iron is hot.[/b]
From every "the" and "ye" to every phrase and line to every stanza: a lie.

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#761394 - 11/11/03 07:09 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
jkeene Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/08/03
Posts: 701
Loc: Central Florida
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense.
[/b]
If I reasoned the way you just did, I'd come to the conclusion that women couldn't own guns.

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#761395 - 11/11/03 07:09 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Shantinik: True. But Miller is pretty clear about the context for individual ownership. And that view has been well-established within the federal courts for more than 60 years:

.

"In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State, 2 Humphreys (Tenn.) 154, 158.

The Constitution as originally adopted granted to the Congress power -- "To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress." With obvious purpose to assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of such forces the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end in view.

The Militia which the States were expected to maintain and train is set in contrast with Troops which they were forbidden to keep without the consent of Congress. The sentiment of the time strongly disfavored standing armies; the common view was that adequate defense of country and laws could be secured through the Militia -- civilians primarily, soldiers on occasion.

The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. "A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline." And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time. [Citing further sources, e.g., the Virginia Act of October 1785 providing for a Militia of "all free male persons between the ages of eighteen and fifty years," with certain exceptions.]"[/b]
That's all very nice but there is nothing in this language that precludes an individual from using his constitutionally protected ownership of firearms for the purposes of self-defense. Nor is there any such language in the Costitution which, in any case, would be disinterested in the right to self-defense per se, it being pretty well understood that a person should have such a right free of interference from the government. That is the way it must be at least until the government decides to take on the responsibility for our personal security, which it has not and, until a police state is established, can not.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761396 - 11/11/03 07:16 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
You are correct that nothing in the Constitution precludes anyone from using surplus nuclear weapons against their neighbor's cat. Only that the Constitution doesn't protect this person against the government outlawing their use (for other than militia-related perhaps, or even their possession (for other than militia-related purposes), in the context of the Second Amendment. The NRA attempted to try this one in the Supreme Court in 1981, with both Burger and Rehnquist holding against them, and they haven't dared go near the Court since.

Burger's opinions on the issue are already well-known:

http://www.guncite.com/burger.html

As Burger notes, the federal government has no more need to grant the right to bear hunting rifles than it does to regulate the use of fishing tackle. But there is no federal Constitution reason why they couldn't take it away.

Some of those fishing lures, though, can be absolutely deadly in the wrong hands.

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#761397 - 11/11/03 07:23 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
You are correct that nothing in the Constitution precludes anyone from using surplus nuclear weapons against their neighbor's cat. [/b]
Nor does it preclude me from using my hunting rifle to defend my home. If the government wants to try and make a law explicitly proscribing self-defense (the Constitution already will not allow them to proscribe gun ownership) they can just give it a try. ;\)
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761398 - 11/11/03 07:27 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
nothing in the Constitution precludes anyone from using surplus nuclear weapons against their neighbor's cat.[/b]
Well if any animal was more deserving...
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761399 - 11/11/03 07:52 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Bill S. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 109
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
nothing in the Constitution precludes anyone from using surplus nuclear weapons against their neighbor's cat.[/b]
Well if any animal was more deserving... [/b]
gryphon, on that one, I have to agree with you... \:D \:D \:D

Lock & Load! ;\)

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#761400 - 11/11/03 07:58 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Originally posted by shantinik:
nothing in the Constitution precludes anyone from using surplus nuclear weapons against their neighbor's cat.[/b]

I think the framers of the Constitution assumed that future generations would be able to apply common sense to their logic.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#761401 - 11/11/03 08:14 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Common sense??? If that was so plentiful, why would mass migration to the new world be so necessary - - let alone a new constitution?

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#761402 - 11/11/03 09:14 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Who said it was plentiful?

It simply prevailed. ;\)
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761403 - 11/11/03 09:48 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Original intent.

You know, one can become so convuluted in their "intelligent" arguments, that cats suddenly begin to bark.

Face it, Shant, the Framers understood property rights, yes, but the right to self defense was considered God given, and not even within the provence of government. Self defense was a well accepted commodity long before the Magna Carta was even written.

In fact, the use of weapons was so prevalent during the 1700s, that firearms were routinely used to assuage breaches of honor. Not to mention sharp cold steel, if guns were eschewed by the challenged party.

Seems like we sometimes aren't near as civilized as we think we are. An armed society is most definitely a polite society.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#761404 - 11/11/03 11:00 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
...cats suddenly begin to bark.

Face it, Shant, the Framers understood property rights, yes, but the right to self defense was considered God given, and not even within the provence of government. Self defense was a well accepted commodity long before the Magna Carta was even written.

[/b]
I once had a Maine Coon cat named Nelson who would fetch beer bottle caps as well as any Retiever.

C'mon Jolly you said it was all about private property and even I conceded the point. Why now switch to self defence- that's Larry's argument or excuse.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761405 - 11/11/03 11:08 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I actually view gun ownership not merely as a Constitutional issue but as a basic human right. Property rights are, indeed, inextricably intertwined.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761406 - 11/12/03 12:19 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
I see, so property (i.e. guns and WMD) are in but universal health care for all is out because it is a commercial commodity that should be bought and sold.

Oops, don't tell me... health care is not on the agenda right now since we're talking guns and other weapons (let's be egalitarian about this; not every interest group or stakeholder uses guns as the preferred weapon of self defence- some may prefer knives or even WMD as Shantinik pointed out).

I realize it's a very serious issue so don't think I am poking fun. Good gracious, Larry wrote last evening how one municipal county (or whatever you call them) actually legislated that everyone had to have a handgun on the premises. I suggested a .454 Casull in that way not only the intruder would get taken out but so would my wall, my neighbours wall, my nosey neighbour and as Gryphon suggested, probably the neighbour's irksome cat.

But it's not about self defence it's all about private property. Next time I go to renew my house insurance I'll tell the bank "it's okay everything's covered, I have a policy and rider with Smith and Wesson."
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761407 - 11/12/03 12:24 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
No, you have the right to provide for your own health care just as you have the right to provide for your own defense.

Tell me Renauda, if you are accosted, attacked, injured or even killed, can you or your surviving family (if there are any) sue the police for failure to protect you? Because you can't here in the colonies. It's already been in court. Someone called 911 when their home was being broken into, but they were dead by the time police arrived. The family sued but lost because the police are not obligated to protect you.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761408 - 11/12/03 12:28 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
I see, so property (i.e. guns and WMD) are in but universal health care for all is out because it is a commercial commodity that should be bought and sold [/b]
I believe I could be forgiven for believing that you are poking fun but unless you are proposing universal government provision of firearms or even universal government provision of personal security (without the police state that would have to go along with it) then, yes, you would be correct.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761409 - 11/12/03 12:48 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Gryphon:

No I cannot sue the police.

Nor do I feel that I need a gun to defend my home or my person when I am on the street alone. My wife also feels that way here in this country and "elsewhere" where perhaps packing a piece almost makes sense.

My home despite the surrounding "barbarianism" is quite safe.

I wish to keep it that way. There are enough, if not too many, weapons here that are solely designed to kill people. These are not for hunting game they are for hunting people.

I have many aboriginal friends who rely on hunting game to feed their families. Hunting in our country is their "right" 365 days per year on all crown land or private land with permission. I am not aboriginal and hunting is my privilege. The present gun laws threaten their right to hunt and I am therefore opposed to the present gun law. I could care less about my privilege.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761410 - 11/12/03 12:54 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Well you're perfectly safe in Canada. Your homocide rate is only 4.1, but here it's 5.6!
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#761411 - 11/12/03 01:00 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Never felt safer. In fact, even the hockey stick has been retired to the garage.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761412 - 11/12/03 07:01 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
At least part of the reason why we who live in areas without restrictive gun laws can feel safer is that criminals acually make reasoned judgments with regard to risk assessment. You may not even actually own a gun but they don't know that and that has an impact on their activity.

I realize that you have limited the weapons you would like to see banned to semi-automatics (you included automatics as well which I found puzzling given that they are already very difficult to own legally). These weapons are no more lethal than the ones you would allow so that puzzsles me as well. However, the best weapons for self-defense are precisely those that have been designed to kill people or, at least, are not intended for hunting. A 12 gauge pump or even a hand gun makes a far better home defense weapon than a bolt action hunting rifle. Also, concealed carry can have little impact on crime if one is restricted to hunting rifles. That is, of course, unless you are willing to allow revolvers which would seem somewhat inconsistent as well.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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