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#761473 - 11/13/03 10:46 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Gryphon,

This ruling is by no means trivial. This guy did not build machine guns from scratch but modified otherwise legal (if incomplete) firearms. And from the Ninth Circuit? Earth shaking.
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#761474 - 11/13/03 10:52 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Larry Offline
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Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I guess that means it's ok for me to keep that tennis ball shooting cannon I made out of coke cans when I was a kid...... \:D
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#761475 - 11/13/03 11:04 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:


The Ninth Circuit says we can build and own machine guns as long as we don't sell them. [/b]
Not only that but you can sell the pieces that can be made into one.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#761476 - 11/13/03 11:19 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
detritus is a flexible word. In this case it could be any refuse.. the cells that drift off your arms and into the air, or bodily waste, or hair that falls out. The detritus of your ancestors enlivens us all. [/b]
Yeah..... they always told me Indian manure was the best thing in the world for growing hyacinths.......
\:D
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#761477 - 11/13/03 11:21 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Making a machinegun is not hard to do.

Let's just say I know folks who have done so.

All you need is a de-milled parts kit, and you can reconstruct a receiver from either sheet metal, or ordinance grade steel pipe - whichever is appropriate to the firearm.

Or at the simplest, you can just drop an auto-sear, and a selector switch into an AR-15, or an AK.

This latest ruling is shocking. Really shocking.

Next thing you know, they'll let us have silencers. Glad I stocked up on washers... ;\)
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#761478 - 11/13/03 11:58 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
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Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Please continue with the legal precedents for your case. All are being taken with due consideration and attention. In the meantime, I am content with Shantinik's arguments, as he clearly established in my mind what privileges to property I have through Royal perogative and the traditions of Common Law. It is unfortunate that some of his fellow countrymen cannot accept the facts of their own history or traditions.

Also, JB there is not any need for you to demonstrate that you can be devoid of manners and have to resort to crude expressions in order to disagree with me or with anyone else for that matter. After all, you are neither Jerry Springer or a trashy radio phone-in host catering to popular and mass insipidness. Not only is it unbecoming of you, but it reinforces the herd mentality that has become all to common here and caused Benedict to start this thread in the first place.

Like I said, I'm no liberal.
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#761479 - 11/14/03 06:28 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
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Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Renauda,

Apparently, you took me far more seriously than was intended as I failed to with you. I really didn't think you were serious about all that king and country nonsense. After all, the rights affirmed by our Constitution were not conferred upon us by a king either. However, if you feel it is essential to the discussion I would have to wonder why you find silly arguments about can openers and fishing lures more compelling than those made by a federal judge. Might it just be what you like to hear? I have heard no reasoned rebuttal of this judge's arguments from either you or Shantinik other than to say he does not understand British Common Law. Hence my confusion about your actual seriousness. What is it that he does not understand? What specific point has he got wrong?

I apologize if I have said anything to offend you. It really was not my intention. Perhaps you can direct me to the nuance of British Common Law that allows my government to deprive me of property that enjoys explicit protection under our Constitution or that allows it to prevent me from protecting myself with whatever means I have at my disposal. It is possible that Shantinik has, in some subtle manner, done this already and I was distracted by his references to fishing tackle and common household items (we right-wingers are so easily distracted) so please try and limit such references. They really smack of condescension.
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#761480 - 11/14/03 09:17 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Manitou Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/08/02
Posts: 1044
Loc: Colorado
Detritus:

This is French word, originally from Latin.
Simply means, trash or litter. Its description though refers less to the main trash heap, or garbage and more to those loose peices of jetsam or floaties (in the case of water) that are apart from the greater heap of trash. Though I've never heard it used to describe parts of a family tree.

Interesting how the US dislikes France, yet, loves to use French words... ?

Manitou
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#761481 - 11/14/03 09:45 AM Re: Au revoir les amis !
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
romance languages - that's what we have.

The french words sound the most beautiful, like music.
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love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#761482 - 11/14/03 01:11 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Nor does it preclude me from using my hunting rifle to defend my home. [/b]
A friend of mine, a union pipefitter and staunch Democrat, is an avid hunter. Not only in Michigan, but he spends his vacations hunting in the Dakotas, Arizona, and New Mexico. He is not an NRA member, nor does he particularly advocate the ownership of any type of firearm for any reason (as I do). Several years ago I showed him the anti-sniper rifle legislation that was proposed in the Senate. His eyes became as big as saucers because, as he noticed, it outlawed his hunting rifles. They were just regular bolt action high powered rifles capable of killing an antelope at a distance (or political leader on the Washington Mall). ;\)

People are so silly.
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#761483 - 11/14/03 01:21 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
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Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Same idea behind the so-called "cop killer" bullet.
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#761484 - 11/14/03 01:42 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
JBryan:

Apology accepted and I too will govern my own actions so as not to be condescending.

I have read and reread the Emerson link Jolly provided. From it I have a much better appreciation for the complexities of this debate.
It is not as clear cut as either side may argue.

Clearly there was a precedent for individuals to arm themselves under both the tradition of Common Law and affirmation in the English Bill of Rights in the 17th Century. The framers of the American Constitution later reaffirmed what was already in existence under English Law and expanded upon it to include the right of States to maintain a well regulated militia. Not sure if I am entirley correct here but I think I am at least on the right track.

Where there seems to be some difficulty with interpretations is the extent to which the Federal government can regulate the Peoples' Right to bear arms and a State's right to maintain the Peoples right to bear arms in a regulated State militia. In otherwords at a subnational level the right seems to be clear and individual states may regulate the registration and ownership of individual firearms. At a Federal level however it does not seem so clear and I get the impression that the Constitution actually encumbers Federal legislation or jurisdiction.

You may or may not be aware that in this country there is battle going on between some provinces and territories with the Federal Government regarding the registration of personal firearms. Given our Common Law traditions and the powers granted to the Fedearl Governemnt in the BNA Act of 1867, it is clear that Ottawa has the legal right to set requirements for the acquisition of not only firearms but also the acquisition of ammunition. What however is being debated and challenged at the subnational level is the jursidiction of Ottawa to require a province to enforce the registration of personal firearms. The Alberta Government has steadfastly refused to enforce the Federal legislation on requiring the registration of personal firearms other than handguns. It is not so much the right of ownership that is in question here but rather the right of the Federal Government to demand the registration of private chattel property.
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#761485 - 11/14/03 01:57 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
in this country there is battle going on between some provinces and territories with the Federal Government regarding the registration of personal firearms....the registration of personal firearms other than handguns...the right of the Federal Government to demand the registration of private chattel property. [/b]
How are handguns different from long guns as far as chattel property? If you can require the registration of one you can require the registration of the other. They are both chattel property. So if a province follows the national law on one why do they balk at the other?

And yes, we are very aware of your legal matters regarding firearms. The US follows it pretty closely.
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#761486 - 11/14/03 02:06 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:

In otherwords at a subnational level the right seems to be clear and individual states may regulate the registration and ownership of individual firearms. At a Federal level however it does not seem so clear and I get the impression that the Constitution actually encumbers Federal legislation or jurisdiction.

[/b]
This is essentially correct. While the Supreme Court has taken the position that the other enumerated rights in the Constitution shall be protected by the States as well as the Federal government as an equal protection issue under the Fourteenth Amendment, it has not seen fit to take that position with regard to the Second Amendment. I am not saying that is necessarily a bad thing. While it prevents nationwide implementation of gun registration or confiscation it also permits individual communities like New York City or Kennesaw, Georgia to enact the firearms regulations that make sense for them. I am not in any position to tell the people of New York or California what their gun laws should be but I can choose to live elsewhere if I do not care for the restrictions. This is all in the spirit of federalism wherein each individual state is like a laboratory for different types of governance and people can vote with their feet as well as see what really works and what does not. At present, for example, 39 states now have CCW laws. I cannot say that it would work everywhere but it has worked well enough that it has grown to 39 states from the original 1 (Florida) over a decade ago.
_________________________
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#761487 - 11/14/03 02:29 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
[QUOTE]How are handguns different from long guns as far as chattel property? If you can require the registration of one you can require the registration of the other. They are both chattel property. [/b]
Practically there is no difference so you are right to be confounded by the obvious non sequitor . What is different is the national (peoples') attitude towards rifles and shotguns versus handguns. Overall there is a national consensus that handguns are in the first place not necessary for private possession since they cannot be used legally (in any province or territory) for any form of hunting. Secondly, since handguns may be concealed there are restrictions on their placed on their possession and transport. In order to own a handgun legally I must not only be a member of a registered shooting range or gun club, but I must also carry a valid "Conveyance Certificate" permitting me to transport the weapon on public roadways from my home to the shooting range, from my home to the gunsmith's and return.

 Quote:
So if a province follows the national law on one why do they balk at the other?
[/b]
Public opinion in this province does not support the Federal registration of rifles and shotguns. Aboriginals also see it as a violation of their Treaty Rights. Everyone agrees that it will serve no purpose other than to criminalize otherwise law abiding citizens.

Albertans and Westerners in general, hate it because it was a arbitrary decision made without consultation with the provinces by an idiotic Cabinet Minister from Toronto. We will not comply.
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#761488 - 11/14/03 04:00 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
We will not comply. [/b]
What do you mean "We will not comply." It's your national law, damnit! When the RCMP comes marching in there to arrest your ministers and gun owners, what are you going to do about it?
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#761489 - 11/14/03 04:16 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
When I say we will not comply I mean that the Provincial prosecutors will not bring it before the Provincial Court of Queen's Bench. The RCMP will have to file those charges in a Federal court in order to prosecute. In otherwords, the provincial authorities will not cooperate. Therefore if John Doe is charged with several criminal offences the Provincial courts will only hear those charges that do not fall under the Federal Gun Law. It forces the RCMP to prepare additional paperwork and restricts the evidence the Crown can use in convicting a felon. Comply is perhaps too strong a word- cooperate is better.

Actually there is now talk that Alberta may cancel the arrangement it has with the RCMP and set up its own Provincial Police Force which will not enforce the Federal Gun Registry. What are we going to do? Well, just watch us- the next ten years will determine the future of the Confederation.
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#761490 - 11/14/03 05:09 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Oh God! Well, it can't be another Shiloh. Bloody Pond would have to be Bloody Hockey Rink.
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#761491 - 11/14/03 05:27 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Jolly Offline
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Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Americans, when considering handguns, are like no other people on the face of the planet.

In fact, our Army considers the handgun an offensive weapon, unlike any other country. Most nation's armed forces consider the weapon to be a badge of rank, a tool to "encourage" enlisted compliance, or perhaps a defensive weapon.

Not us. \:\)
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#761492 - 11/14/03 06:29 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Oh God! Well, it can't be another Shiloh. Bloody Pond would have to be Bloody Hockey Rink. [/b]
No I doubt whether our passions run that deep that we allow ourselves the crucible of what Shiloh entailed. Nor will be as hard hitting and entertaining to be billed as a repeat of a certain Bruins and Rangers Stanley Cup Quarter Final series that took place in 70's.

Rather it will be the travesty watching how a pack of short sighted greedy and jealous siblings fight over the bankrupt estate of a not yet rigored parent. The carnage of the public purse will be unmatched and the stench of unclaimed and unplundered wealth will attract opportunists and carpetbaggers from all directions. In the end we will return to what we were originally- a resource rich playground for adventuring monopolists living abroad.
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#761493 - 11/14/03 07:00 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Okay, I give up. I have absolutely no idea what you're saying. Please spell it out plainly as to what will happen as us dunderheads down in the colonies don't understand it.

And while you're at it, also please explain to us in graphic detail (okay, maybe not in graphic detail) about this Prince Charles buggering a servant. We don't get it.
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#761494 - 11/14/03 08:32 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
We are on the verge of redefining this country. We either stop arguing amongst ourselves or face the consequences of losing our sovereignty as a nation. If teh latter, in its demise there will be no battles or entertainment, just a For Sale sign in front of a headstone.

I am however optimistic, I think Canada will redefine itself and its role on the global stage.

As a comedian here recently said, Americans have to realize that "Canada is an arm of the US- no, not its Right arm- c'mon let's not get into our heads that we are that useful, but rather America's Left arm." ;\)

As for Prince Charles I have no idea- I haven't been following the Royals lately. After the Queen Mother passed on their lustre has faded.
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#761495 - 11/14/03 09:13 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Larry Offline
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Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
We are on the verge of redefining this country. We either stop arguing amongst ourselves or face the consequences of losing our sovereignty as a nation. If teh latter, in its demise there will be no battles or entertainment, just a For Sale sign in front of a headstone.[/b]

Maybe now would be a good time for the US to invade Canada, seeing as how the only thing they'll let you point at us is your finger.....


;\) (just making a joke....... )
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#761496 - 11/14/03 10:59 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
That's different- we DO have hockey sticks. \:D
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"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#761497 - 11/15/03 02:37 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
As for Prince Charles I have no idea[/b]


God save the "queen."
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"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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#761498 - 11/15/03 03:18 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Well whatever, unfortunate that you think of Britain that way especially after the events of the past year or so. All the more reason I am glad we stayed away.

In any case, if you are remotely interested, this link is what I mean by our non cooperation:

http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjournal/story.asp?id=2E97620F-3FD9-4503-B94C-E54FEB2D7E4A

It is a questionable portent of the future of this nation. Contrary to what the article says, separatism is growing \:\(
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#761499 - 11/15/03 03:48 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Oh, c'mon Renauda, I don't think ill of Britain. I don't think ill of Canada. Gee, why has everyone become so touchy all of a sudden? People post bad stuff about GWB here all the time.

I'm more interested in the fact that no one can talk about it because they'll get thrown in the Tower of London for it. It's one of your "not freedom of the press" issues.

It's not as if I said that I think we should put them all in a zoo where members of the public can go and point and jeer at their accents and behavior, throw stones and vegetables at them, and young children can poke them through the bars with sticks or anything. :rolleyes:
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"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#761500 - 11/15/03 06:53 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Point taken Gryphon- I know you don't think ill of Britain. Actually, there aren't many big fans Charles in this country. But we find this to be pure sensationalism for the purpose of character assassination- utterly revolting.
_________________________
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#761501 - 11/15/03 07:06 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Actually, there aren't many big fans Charles[/b]
You must admit that Charles and Her Britannic Majesty and all the rest of those pampered gumdrops (the Duke of Earl comes to mind,) are a "fiction" when it comes to government (or pretty much anything else.)

In years gone by, I knew quite an assortment of such Euro-trash. They were nothing to speak of.

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#761502 - 11/15/03 07:12 PM Re: Au revoir les amis !
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by TomK:
Charles and Her Britannic Majesty and all the rest of those pampered gumdrops are a "fiction" when it comes to government[/b]
Yeah, it's not like the royal family runs the country or anything. It just serves as a tourist attraction. Like Stonehenge but with more buggery involved.
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