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Topic Options
#767872 - 04/07/02 12:09 PM A Decision
Anonymous
Unregistered


After the events of the weekend in which a few people have forced their own view of what are acceptable discussions among adults, I have decided I will not be replying to posts on any "weighty" topic. I really do not want to take the time and energy to start up or join in a good, intelligent conversation, only to see it is suddenly gone because someone was offended by what was said or decided it was too intense for tender ears (or eyes in this case).

Not sure I will even visit the Coffee Room much at all, since I get enough banter in meetings, the workplace and social events I have to attend.

While it sounds self serving to publicly post this since my decision is really not something which shakes the universe, I have done so because I think that people like those who complained to Frank need to know what effects their small mindedness and inability to cope with life as it is has. As I said in my original post on this action, these types of things are exactly why we have seen the dumbing down of America. And now this dumbing down has spread even to the level of this forum.

Not that I really think these people care. but maybe there is some scintilla of a desire for freedom in them that will make them think twice the next time they choose to ask some authority to control other people to limit what their children see, hear and read. Maybe they will see that it is their responsibility to monitor their children, not everyone else's.

It is too bad this very small minority of people have such power, but they do. Not just here, but every where else. It is damaging the very fabric of our society when intelligent discussions cannot take place without people having to watch everything they write or say because someone is scrutinizing every word, sentence and thought that is expressed, just ready to run to whatever authority there to demand censorship the moment they find something objectionable.

So, to those whose convictions are so strong that they got up the "courage" to go behind everyone's back to complain in secret, but who do not believe strongly enough to publicly identify and explain their actions, let me just say.....congratulations. You actions have just provided another tiny step to diminishing American freedom and to the controlling of thoughts and information flow.

Of course, by itself what happens here is relatively meaningless. But when this is added to the thousands and perhaps millions of times this same action is taken in venues everywhere year after year, and the number of formal and informal rules that get written by groups everywhere just to placate these small minded people, it adds up and does become significant.

And people wonder why Americans no longer seem to be able to think. I believe we have all just seen an example of why this is happening.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#767873 - 04/07/02 12:31 PM Re: A Decision
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I posted this once, but I'll post it again. There is a place where one can continue having civil discussions and debates of current events, views, or whatever you wish, with no concern of having the discussions "dumbed down". Click here to visit Club 21.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#767874 - 04/07/02 12:40 PM Re: A Decision
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I'm going to sign up for Larry's 21-Club. Talking about pianos is interesting, but quite frankly it gets boring after a while. The Coffee Room was by far, in my opinion, the best thing that happened to this forum. As I said in another post, sipping tea and knitting sweaters is not my idea of an interesting discussion. And that is apparently what we have to limit our discussions to because of a few people (who probably don't even post). I'm switching to Larry's forum (if he'll let me)! \:D Hope to see you guy's there. I'm going to start the first controversial discussion!!!

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#767875 - 04/07/02 12:50 PM Re: A Decision
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
personally, i don't think the solution is to leave. i think the solution is to keep having the civil and friendly and thought provoking discussions that we want to have. even at our most fervent, these discussions have been g-rated.

ok, maybe we got to pg-13 once or twice. ;\)

larry's board says explicitly that he will evict those people whose behavior he doesn't like. we are clearly, over there, going to a moderated forum, which is what all of us said we didn't want.

we've had some pretty intense discussions on this forum over the past year and i haven't seen any censorship until this moment. i wonder if frank will reconsider his actions on the abortion thread. and i wonder if he might clarify here what his take on the whole situation is.

i, for one, don't get the impression that, as a general rule, there is any censorship here.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#767876 - 04/07/02 12:50 PM Re: A Decision
JohnC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
George,

Please don't make a rash decision.

If your reason(s) for not participating are due to outside demands and pressures it is understandable. But to let those who have squashed one discussion influence many more is giving them the courage to think they can have even more of an impact by their behavior. Those people will not take to heart anything you say. They *will* see how easily they achevied their desires to stifle an honest, thoughtful, exchange of ideas. Don't give them the courage to think they have that power. They don't. Don't make it easier for them George.

I really think you should reconsider.
_________________________
There are few joys in life greater than the absence of pain.

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#767877 - 04/07/02 01:05 PM Re: A Decision
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
pique,

Larry's board would have allowed the abortion thread to continue, something that was not allowed on this board.

Nancy commented on my Net Nanny post by saying parent's should watch their children. She is right. Paren't only wish that the worst their kids saw on the internet was the abortion thread.

There is no need for censorship when two opposing sides are having a civil discussion. If you don't like the topic, change the channel.

I'm changing forums. Hope other's will follow. There's a juicy one on Larry's 21-Club.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#767878 - 04/07/02 01:31 PM Re: A Decision
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
hi, derick,
i went for a look. if that's the kind of discussion that is going to go on over there, i think i'll stay here, thanks. it's better for my mental health.

have fun!
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#767879 - 04/07/02 01:37 PM Re: A Decision
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Let me make sure I am understood. It is not my intention to advocate *leaving* this board. That is not my intention, nor my goal. One can *add* a destination in their list of places to go. They don't have to leave one to use the other. This is a great forum, and I will not be leaving it *myself*, so please don't anyone think for a moment that this is what I advocate. I am simply providing a place where you can have the discussions you want to have without interruption. That is all. I do not, am not, will not, and never will suggest anyone stop coming here.

Second, to Pique: The warnings of getting kicked off Club 21 are clear that I am talking about posting gratuitous or pornographic material. I am trying to tell you that this is the only material that is not allowed. Please don't take my warning about this category of material to mean that I intend to control what you discuss. The goal is to allow you to discuss anything you want, as long as it doesn't go into offensive or gratuitous sex, or extreme vulgarity, or anything that is offensive for the purpose of being offensive. That is the *only* limitations, and I don't see that as censorship, I see that as asking posters to use discretion and good taste.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#767880 - 04/07/02 01:40 PM Re: A Decision
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by pique:
i wonder if frank will reconsider his actions on the abortion thread. and i wonder if he might clarify here what his take on the whole situation is. [/b]
I think Frank has explained himself enough and I accept his decision. He did what he thought was best for the whole, which is exactly what he should have done. I might have handled it differently, but that is beside the point. He made the best decision he can and I support it. But his decision also has consequences.

The ones who should publicly explain themselves are those who complained. They should explain why they complained, why they have so little control over their children and why they feel the rest of society must change because of their own fears of opposing viewpoints and their inability to adequately exercise parental supervision.

But they won't publicly explain because they do not have the guts to do so, they cannot really justify to others their own desire to limit thoughts and expressions and they prefer to function under the cloak of secrecy.

Imagine being challenged in public when you demand others change how they act! The indignity of it when you are so obviously right!

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#767881 - 04/07/02 01:45 PM Re: A Decision
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Don't leave, Don't leave, Don't leave! (George, do NOT take your ball and go home ;\) ) I don't mind so much the idea of an "adult forum", or at least a forum that our slightly younger participants can visit with parental permission. Why can't it be here? Of course, I'm not sure what threads we would put in this category, as none so far seemed out of line to me. And once you put an "adults only" sticker on something, it immediately becomes attractive, even if it's a complete bore. I have no beef with Larry, although his views often differ from mine. But I am guessing that there are people who will not be willing to participate in a forum moderated by someone who has such strong opinions. (no offense meant, Larry, just my opinion \:\) ) So, stick around folks, and lets keep talking! Jodi

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#767882 - 04/07/02 02:11 PM Re: A Decision
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Geez......how many times do I have to explain that it is *not moderated*!!

You're also missing an interesting post (it took two posts to hold it all) of my tour of the Yamaha factory.

So to repeat: I am not advocating anyone leave here, I'm only suggesting you add it to your list of places to go. I am not censoring anything. There will be things you'll find there that you won't find here, and vice versa. Expand your horizons.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#767883 - 04/07/02 02:14 PM Re: A Decision
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
OK, OK, I believe you! \:\) Jodi

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#767884 - 04/07/02 02:56 PM Re: A Decision
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
Naw George, don't do that.

I propose that a softening of tone and nuancing of statements (just a bit!) will allow us all to have the discussions we want without offending tender sensibilities. I further propose that writing in this fashion is much more fun than blasting.

It has been said that a diplomat can tell you to go to hell (interesting that the auto-censor does not *** out hell) in such a fashion as to make you look forward to the trip. If necessary information is to be shown the light of day, I believe that this will be the best way to do it.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

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#767885 - 04/07/02 03:02 PM Re: A Decision
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I don't know why anyone would hesitate to go to Larry's forum; at least for discussions of this sort.

FWIW, this "unmoderated" forum was moderated enough to get a thought provoking thread kicked out of it. Larry's supposedly "moderated" forum (which isn't moderated as he's said twice now), would have allowed that thread to continue. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out which forum is less "moderated".

A second FWIW; Larry now you see what I went thru trying to explain my position on CEO pay/bonuses.

pique - if discussing the death penalty is more straining on your mental health than discussing abortion, then you support my long-held theory that many, if not most, pro-choice people believe the rights of criminals far outweigh the rights of the unborn.

Now after dropping that bombshell :p I'm outta here and will come back later to see how badly I've been ripped to shreds. And hope to see some replies on Larry's forum about the death penalty.

Later,
Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#767886 - 04/07/02 03:17 PM Re: A Decision
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
Naw George, don't do that.

I propose that a softening of tone and nuancing of statements (just a bit!) will allow us all to have the discussions we want without offending tender sensibilities. [/b]
And when we have "softened the tone and nuanced the statements (just a bit!)" the shadow controllers will still be there, wanting more softening and more nuancing. We will all genuflect to their desires and it will happen again and again.

How more civil could the discussion on such a controversial and emotional topic as abortion have been? What could have been softened and nuanced any better than that was?

You see, it was the very ideas that were being discussed, not the wording of them, that upset the shadow controllers, those who would control our lives and our thoughts and our expressions.

As has been often said, America will not lose its freedom in war or by invasion of some enemy, but through small incremental steps that seem so reasonable to the majority at the time they are proposed.

We have seen this through the political correctness foisted on us by the left and the book bannings in the schools foisted on us by the right. We are witnessing it daily as Americans are willing to accept the limitations on the freedoms being foisted on us by Bush2 and John Ashcroft all in the name of security. We have now seen it even in such a non-controverisal non-threatening forum as this.

There are places I am willing to fight the fight. This Board is not one where I will spend my time only to have it all wasted because the shadow controllers will attack again and then good, honest, civil discussion is removed.

I do not intend to leave Piano World. I just do not intend to waste my time trying to have an intelligent discussion on significant issues here. If it steps over someone's secret line, it will simply be stopped.

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#767887 - 04/07/02 04:30 PM Re: A Decision
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
derick:
it's not the topic, it's the tone.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#767888 - 04/07/02 05:19 PM Re: A Decision
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I see. In other words, you wouldn't object to discussing the topic Derick started, but you don't want to discuss it with anyone who disagrees with you. Interesting.........
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#767889 - 04/07/02 05:33 PM Re: A Decision
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
larry, what part of "tone" didn't you umderstand? that has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#767890 - 04/07/02 05:34 PM Re: A Decision
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Geez, leave town for a while, & look at what happens.

Hey friends, let's all step back for a minute.

As Frank has said, this place is called the "Piano Forum." Regardless of whatever he has chosen the site to be, it is still ultimately "Frank's Place." If he chooses to moderate or non-moderate, if he chooses to limit forum posts to exclusively piano-related topics or allows for some, or all, other topics to be discussed, it is his call.

I am a frequent "off-topic" commentator, but I wouldn't be offended in the slightest if tomorrow, Frank said he was going to remove all off-topic posts from all forums on his site. Note the pronoun "his" - no matter how much we all appreciate and use this site, it is a private enterprise. It's not a public utility, and it's not the press. We have not all been endowed by our Creator with the unalienable right to say whatever we want here, and in whatever form we choose. If, by Frank's choosing, our ability to comment on any topic were limited or prohibited by the webmaster, it is not a Constitutional crisis of us being denied our civil rights.

I hope it never comes to that point, of course, but come on! Everyone here knows of dozens of places that they could go online to carry on completely unmoderated, unlimited conversation on any topic they wished to discuss.

So let's not get melodramatic here. I hope that the forum continues in the manner we've all come to know and like, but just because the speech here is sometimes filtered - and don't forget, this isn't the first time Frank has pulled a thread; there have been others - let's not (literally) make a federal case out of something that isn't.

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#767891 - 04/07/02 05:47 PM Re: A Decision
Brendan Offline


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5298
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:

"shadow controllers" and the loss of American freedoms
[/b]
George,

Almost every city newspaper and major syndicated news network has a message board as part of their website where opinions on the articles (i.e., pertinent issues) can openly be discussed and debated with little moderation (basic things like obscenity, racist remarks, nudity, etc.). Even more "popular" news magazines (US Weekly, Time, World News and Report") offer this service:

New York Times
CNN
Time Magazine

That should get you started.

However, if you want to come to a place where you can talk about pianos and piano music (and meet some very educated people of all types), here is my first choice:

Take a wild guess

Having done a quick search of your posts, I found out that the vast majority of them have nothing at all to do with the piano but instead shove your political beliefs down our throats with a nice helping of horsemeat added. Perhaps if you are seeking to have " an intelligent discussion on significant issues here," (thanks for the insult by basically calling everyone here stupid)
you need to come to terms with the fact that this is a Piano-related[/b] BBS. Yes, the coffee room was created to give us a chance to talk about things that interest us and out hobbies, but the sole purpose of this site is to talk about the piano.

One more thing about the "shadow controllers": I have a confession to make to everyone:

As it is rumored, there is an Inner Circle of members who "frequent" (to strongly euphemise) the forums. We have several levels of heirarchy, ranging from aliases created by us to do our bidding freely and spread our influence without retribution to chaired positions that are voted upon bi-annually, but regularly communicate through e-mail and sometimes telephone. The "shadow controllers," as you put it, are also subservient to us. I personally supervise them, as their own ideologial, moral, and ethical beliefs are in accord with my own.

Why else would I keep clamoring for a moderator?

I can assure you all that I will be the only member to ever reveal his identity.

The collective We have determined that your account and IP address will be banned so that your influence stops with your excommunication.

Threateningly submitted,
Brendan Michael Ignatius Kinsella,
Vice-President and founding member of the
PianoWorld Inner Circle and
High Commissar of the SC
Bachelor of Music, 2002
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#767892 - 04/07/02 05:55 PM Re: A Decision
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:


So let's not get melodramatic here. I hope that the forum continues in the manner we've all come to know and like, but just because the speech here is sometimes filtered - and don't forget, this isn't the first time Frank has pulled a thread; there have been others - let's not (literally) make a federal case out of something that isn't.[/b]
I understand what you are saying, Dwain, but can you guess which topic will be their next target? Or which words? Or which thoughts? Is it really worth it to take our time to think something through, read other's comments that they spent time on and try to give a thoughtful reply only to find that some parent somewhere has decided he/she does not want their kids learning about maybe Jews, or Moslems, or other religious viewpoints. Or perhaps it is liberal ideas or conservative ideas they don;t want their kids reading. Or perhaps it is the word "gay" when applied to sexuality they don't want their kids to read (unless it includes the thought that gays are all damned to hell). Or perhaps it is....well, who the hell knows?

You are right, Dwain. It is not worth making a federal case out of this. But neither is it worth a lot of time to "test" their limits again, when their limits are so low anyway.

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#767893 - 04/07/02 08:36 PM Re: A Decision
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
[QUOTE]I understand what you are saying, Dwain, but can you guess which topic will be their next target? [/b]
No, and frankly, I don't care. As I said, this website is not a part of the much-vaunted Fourth Estate. It is not Public Access television. It is not the guarantor of our right to free speech. It's a freakin' private website - about pianos - and if the webmaster doesn't want a topic, or topics, on his forum, he has the right to delete - or, to use the dreaded word, censor them. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a pet topic or position of mine, or someone else's. If I want to talk about something, I'll talk about it - here, or on Usenet, or at any one of the sites Brendan mentioned, or God forbid, face to face with a person rather than typing it and posting it to cybereverybodynobody. In short, I'm not afraid of "them" taking away my right to free speech by their alleged complaints and Frank's actions while overseeing this forum. It doesn't even matter if I agree with Frank's decision, or any of the decisions voiced in the dreaded thread (of which I have not read a single line). It's HIS CALL. If my comments aren't appropriate, or wanted, here, I can still speak just as freely, in numerous other venues. And if I don't like it, I can set up my own website and talk about any blather that pops into my head.

BTW Brendan, did you get my email? The dogeared mockingbird sings respectfully at night while the frustrated swordfish obtains unheeded hard drives. 121.5. squawk 7700.

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#767894 - 04/07/02 08:55 PM Re: A Decision
Brendan Offline


Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 5298
Loc: McAllen, TX
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
The dogeared mockingbird sings respectfully at night while the frustrated swordfish obtains unheeded hard drives. 121.5. squawk 7700.[/QB]
Roger that. I'll send some of my SC to take care of it.
_________________________
http://www.BrendanKinsella.com

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#767895 - 04/17/02 08:46 AM Re: A Decision
Barbara Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/10/01
Posts: 17
Loc: Watkinsville, GA
Dwain: AMEN!
_________________________
Barbara S

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#767896 - 04/17/02 11:16 AM Re: A Decision
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Amen to what? That this is Frank's site? I think that this point is undebatable.

I think that what is debatable, is what subjects are proper for this room. Either tell us, in advance, or do away with this feature of the site.

There is too much BST involved in some of these point/counterpoint dialogs, not to mention pathos, insight and revelation to have them relegated to the cyber netherworld.

The Coffee Room makes me think, and I like that. So jump in Barb and give us your views. Whether we agree or not, it might be fun. Or educational. Or a respite from an otherwise boring day.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#767897 - 04/17/02 11:30 AM Re: A Decision
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Barbara,

In case you didn't notice, the subheading under The Coffee Room is "General, non-music, discussions."

The webmaster certainly does have the right to pull any and all topics for whatever reason. However, that does not mean that posters don't have the right to complain. Yes, I did say "right".

While I don't agree with one word George has written, his posts are intelligent and well thought out and have obviously taken him a lot of time to write. I, for one, miss reading posts from the 'other side'. George does have a right to complain as do many others. You, ten days after the last post in this thread, with a whopping 11 posts, have re-opened the wound by tossing in your $.02.

I'm guessing your a uniter, not a divider?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#767898 - 04/17/02 08:02 PM Re: A Decision
nancyww Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 585
Loc: central oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Or a respite from an otherwise boring day.[/b]
AMEN

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#767899 - 04/18/02 06:53 PM Re: A Decision
Barbara Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/10/01
Posts: 17
Loc: Watkinsville, GA
Derick:

And to think I really got upset with all the people who jumped all over you when you first started posting.

I agree with Dwain's opinion that it's Frank site and he can do whatever he wants with it. I also agree that anyone can have an opinion and can voice (write) it.

Yes, I try to be a uniter, not a divider. I do not consider that a character flaw.

I realize I have not posted much. I can't believe I posted only 10 days ago. I have been getting my house ready for marketing, have been travelling 80 miles as often as possible to redecorate our new house, and have spent a great deal of time with my 80+ year-old parents at doctors' and hospital appointments. I'm 57 years old, and I'm tired. So what leisure time I've had has been spent practicing the piano.

I recognized a long time ago that I am not loaded with self-confidence, and my opinions would probably not interest anyone. I am a pretty boring person, and I have enjoyed reading posts on the Piano World because I envy those of you who are very good at verbalizing opinions and provoking thought.

I'm guessing this is my 13th and last post.
_________________________
Barbara S

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#767900 - 04/18/02 07:24 PM Re: A Decision
nancyww Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 585
Loc: central oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by Barbara:
Derick:
I'm guessing this is my 13th and last post.[/b]
Barbara,

I, for one, hope that you change your mind and stay. \:\)

nancyww (a pretty boring person who posts anyway)

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#767901 - 04/18/02 07:26 PM Re: A Decision
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Nooooo, don't leave us, Barbara. Derick must've been feeling particularly fiesty the day he wrote that post. I like reading what you write, even if it has only been 13 posts. I'm sure others appreciate your contributions too. Jodi (ever the peace maker) \:\)

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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Here's a Paranoid Question:
by Paul678
08/23/14 01:19 AM
Are you must always make A4= 440?
by Maximillyan
08/23/14 12:55 AM
LEARN TO BURN! master class
by Dfrankjazz
08/23/14 12:22 AM
How does a composer/songwriter learn piano chords?
by amv256
08/22/14 09:49 PM
The Chair
by Brinestone
08/22/14 09:44 PM
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