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YOU GO, DERICK! Can't think of anything to add to that. One of my best friends is a lesbian. She didn't pick that any more than she picked her height, or the color of her eyes.

On another note, did any of you catch the AP article in the newspaper about the high school in Georgia that is FINALLY having a single prom for both it's black and white students? And I thought Idaho was backwards. Jodi

YES!

David, in one post you have managed to hit nearly every topic that divides people today, and did so in a way that that practically cries out for further discussion!

Long live this thread! On the other hand, some of these topics surely deserve their own thread - the length of the responses so far are surely proof of that and they are bound to get longer. I propose chopping these discussions in to individual threads to make it easier to consider them.

When my mind stops reeling from some of what has been said here, I will break out a couple of them myself. AND, you can be sure my kids will be reading it - they need to hear this stuff. Indeed, I would hope that all will feel compelled to contribute to the discussion, by the nature of the diviseness of the topics at and, and the need for a full public airing of opinion on a regular basis.

Bravo!

Hi Jodi,

No, I didn't catch that AP story.

I sure hope they don't jump into such a liberal idea too quickly. I mean they are going to rope off the gymnasium to keep them separate right?

This world sure is going to the dogs. I imagine next they'll be letting them drink out of the same water fountain...

Damn liberals.

Derick

hurrah for derick. both my husband's and my family have had homosexuals in every generation on our mothers' sides (the men in my family, the women in his). there is no question in our minds that this is a genetic trait. because we have multiple generations, every straight person in our families has had a gay brother or sister, aunt or uncle, or cousin. to us it seems pretty normal. uncle joe always brings his "friend" harry to thanksgiving. aunt sue and her "friend" jean, who happen to live together, are always home for christmas. my mother's best friend is a lesbian. i've had tons of lesbian friends.

the only thing that isn't normal to us is the horrendously unjust way this society treats gay people.

what is really sad is our families have many times been the only holiday haven available for numerous gay men and women who have been excommunicated from their own families for the heinous crime of just being who they are.

believe me, these poor people would make themselves straight in a heartbeat, if only it were possible... they wish desperately that they could be like everybody else.

On what do you base this statement?

I agree with Ib that homosexuality is inherently morally wrong. I base that on the Judeo-Christian roots of the founding of this country, and the accepted norms of societal behaviour within that group. I also agree that government should take no steps to promote or recognize the practice.

On the other hand, there should be no government persecution or "singling-out, of homosexuals.

A lot of what this discussion boils down to is whether homosexuality is a lifestyle choice or a medical condition. I think it can be both. There are some people who would be gay, no matter what upbringing or influences they were exposed to when young. There are also other people, however, who are on the fence, and can fall on either side, depending upon acceptance. Therefore, I think it is still within the best interests of Society to withold that complete acceptance.

"A lot of what this discussion boils down to is whether homosexuality is a lifestyle choice or a medical condition. I think it can be both. There are some people who would be gay, no matter what upbringing or influences they were exposed to when young. There are also other people, however, who are on the fence, and can fall on either side, depending upon acceptance."

I actually agree with this, Jolly. I know people in both categories. What I don't understand, is how you can call someone "morally wrong", who has obviously been born to be nothing else. I am guessing this comes from a religious upbringing, and honestly, this type of thinking is part of the reason I am NOT religious. What, exactly, is morally wrong about loving another person, and wanting to be with him or her for the rest of your life? I can understand peoples "distaste" and certain activities associated with being homosexual. But I am sure that there are things that some heterosexual couples do that you or I might find distasteful as well. Jodi

jodi,

Yes, in my case religion and personal belief systems do color my perception of the World. but then, I think that is true for everyone.

As an 18 year old, back when I had all the answers, I would have said that Biblically it was wrong and probably deserved stoning. The problem with getting older, and seeing things in my profession that would make your head spin, tends to temper extremism, somewhat. Also, the juxtaposition of Faith, Justice and the concepts of Sin.

Is being a practicing homosexual a sin? Biblically, there is no doubt, yes it is. And with the coming of The White Throne Judgement, that sin will be judged, along with many others. Where does it rank on the scale? Above gluttony? Below blasphemy? I have no clue, and I suspect no one else does either. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

Are some people born homosexual? I don't have a definitive medical study I can quote for you. Independent, and non-biased studies have been contradictory. My gut feeling is that it is probable. Therefore, one must abstain from the practice of homosexuality, in order to remain free from the sin.

I think what bothers me the most is the promulagation of the thought that homosexuality is normal behavior. To me, what is inherently "wrong", cannot be normalized. That gay couples should have the same benefits as married heterosexual couple, seems to legitimize the behavior. Also, as I stated before, I think some people could be either homosexual or heterosexual, and the normalization of the behavior by society at large and by the government, only legitimizes and encourages a lifestyle that otherwise would not be followed.

To address the point about two people living together: if a homosexual couple wants to live together and maintain a monogamous relationship, that is their business. What happens between two consenting adults, in the privacy of one's home, is none of my business. The problem comes when the gay couple wants all of the rights and privledges of the heterosexual couple, under law. A monogamous heterosexual couple has been decided upon by our society to be the most stable family unit and one that should be encouraged. The society shall ultimately determine what other alliances between people will constitute families, and which ones will be encouraged, tolerated or discouraged. As has been stated in another thread, the next civil war in this country will not be about slavery and state's rights, but about the personal rights of the individual.

Jolly,

The accepted norms of societal behavior within a group is hardly a model on which to base ones beliefs. In an earlier post you mentioned several accepted societal behaviors that you dislike:

You dislike these societal norms, but embrace societal norms when it comes to homosexuality? You are not being consistent.

You also make the following statement:

Can you tell me how either a lifestyle 'choice' or a medical condition applies to someone who would be gay no matter what upbringing or influences they were exposed to? If someone will be gay no matter what, then where's the choice? Where's the medical condition?

Your last statement:

Do you really believe this? People will do whatever they are most inclined to do no matter what pressure society puts on them. We are SO far off from 'complete acceptance' it isn't funny. But even if one could wave a magic wand and suddenly society blesses homosexuality, how many of those 'on the fence' would fall into the 'gay' yard who would have otherwise fallen into the 'straight' yard? Not many. And, by the way, if they didn't like the yard they fell into, what's to stop them from climbing the fence to live on the other side?

When it is within one's ability to make a choice, then acceptance will lead to more people making that choice. But when it is not a choice, as 99.9% of psychologists will tell you, acceptance is not going to lead more people into becoming 'one'.

I don't care how socially acceptable it is to like brussel sprouts, be attracted to men, or help my wife pick out wallpaper. I'm not doing any of those things. But if you like all three, let me give you my phone number so you can help my wife with the wallpaper.

Derick

Steve

You asked what I base my feelings about homosexuality.

Before I could answer jolly did a better job of saying what I feel than I could.

For the record though, Liviticus 18.22 & 20.13 gives the bibles version of it.

Derick

Corinthians 11.2,10 explains about the covering of the head in church. My version of the bible says nothing about stoning to death. I may have missed it, could you refer me to the Chapter and Verse that says this.

I said in my first post that every human has the propensity to commit an immoral act. This includes murder, adultery, homophobia, etc. Our God given free will lets us chose whether we commit these acts. Having the propensity for homophobia is not a choice, but committing the act is.

It is a choice, everything in life is a choice.

lb

Dear Derick,

1. I am not attracted to men.

2. I do like Brussel sprouts.

3. What does your wife look like?

You are confusing two arguments. In one, an observation is made about children and the effect upon them by not having a parent, specifically a mother, at home raising the child. In the other, we are talking about societal acceptance of homosexuality and the role this has in inducing behavior that is otherwise considered taboo.

You ask about whether homosexuality is a lifestyle choice or a medical condition? Wish I had a definitive answer for you, I don't. It might be both, or either. The independent study to answer all questions once and forever has not been done. There are multiple theories about upbringing, chromosomal abnormalities, brain developmental experiments, MRI studies, gender ID crisis - I could name more. The bottom line, is that with my belief system the practice of homosexuality is wrong and constitutes a sin. Period.

This does not mean that homosexuals are to be publicly shunned, although I do denounce that aspect of their behavior. Hate the sin, not the sinner. The argument I was making is that the practice should not be glorified nor invested with acceptance by the government.

Am I to take it that you believe that homosexuals should have all the rights of heterosexuals when it comes to marriage, adoption, child-rearing, property division, and other familial legal actions?

damn straight.

Yes.

Although pique's "damned straight" is a much wittier answer than mine! <g>

As justification, I would give you the equal protection clause of the US Constitution, which is what governs this nation, not 2 or 3 verses from one religion's sacred books. (To mix two threads in one!)

Jolly,

You said:

In response...

Marriage:
Yes, from a legal standpoint. Churches are under no obligation to recognize such a marriage.

Adoption:
Perhaps. I think the most stable environment for a child is one with a mother and father; not one with two mothers or two fathers. However, just because a couple is heterosexual does not mean they will be better parent's or create a more stable environment than will two gay parents. Is a child better off with two, very loving, happy, gay parents who get along, or with a straight couple that don't like each other and fight like cats and dogs?

Property division, and other familial legal actions:

Absolutely. Look if two people make a life together, buy a house, furniture, food, etc... what right does the family have to step in between this. In the case of the death of one partner, should not the property be passed on to the other partner? How would you feel if, God forbid, your wife died and her family wanted half of your house?

I'll email you my phone number. There's another marathon wall-paper search and seek mission next Saturday. I'll stay home and make the brussel sprouts.

Derick

Then Ladies and Gentlemen, I am pleased to politically oppose you.

Stack your duds, and grease your skids, cuz politics ain't beanbag!

pique, George, others - man you guys are fast. Usually I write a 1000 word essay, trim it down and post the least feeble of my ramblings.

Just letting you know I'm not ignoring your posts, I didn't see them until I made mine.

Oh yeah, one more thing, WAY TO GO!

Derick

The problem with taking a verse from the Bible and simply applying it as a moral standard today as it is written, is that one ends up with ludicrous thinking, like the following. This is obviously social satire, but like any satire, it shows the inherent ridiculousness of taking, say,Leviticus 18.22 & 20.13 as word for word from the mouth of God, Him/Herself!

This has been around the Net a while, so if you have seen it before, feel free to go right past it.
----------------
Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can.

When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

Derick,

Just a little Tony's and some lemon juice on the sprouts.

As for the wallpaper - women physiologically have much better color vision than males. Have your wife pick out a major feature in her room she wants to coordinate; a sofa, or drapes, perhaps. Most decorator or P/P shops will let you check out two or three wallpaper books from the shop. Match a dominant color in the paper to the furniture or desired home item. Or use a coordinating color to complement the sofa, etc. And don't worry so much about taste, it will be out of style long before it wears out!

Just remember the creed of Jolly's Decorating Emporium:

Answers: 10 cents.

Right Answers: 10 dollars.

Dumb looks: free.

lb,

I linked historical records of the time with sections of the bible to conclude that women who pray without covering their heads should be stoned.

1 Corinthians 11

Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved.

In those days, women with shaved heads were adulters and were stoned to death. So from "it is just as though her head were shaved", I conclude that such a women be stoned.

But if I'm making too big a leap, there are a few other quotes from the bible that don't require any 'leaping'.

Here's a few every man should remind his wife of:

Corinthians 11:3-AV But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Corinthians 14:34-AV Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

Ephesians 5:22-AV Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

Timothy 2:11-AV Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

The following refers to rape victim and the rapist:

[Deuteronomy 22:23-24] If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

The bible also forbids, jewelry, make-up, high-heels, tatoos, the list goes on and on.

The Muslim extremists would be considered tame by comparison if Christians followed the bible to the letter. Maybe they are right, we are infidels and should be sent to our death. After all, we pick and choose what we want to follow.

If homosexuality is even remotely suggested, a good Christians' eyes will pop wide open taking in every word. And Jerry Falwell with his Rolex and that blonde/purple/pink woman with tons of make-up (with the Boesendorfer, art-case piano in the background) can tell us how much of a sin it is.

I think they should pay a little more attention to their own sins before condemning someone else.

Derick

I kinda figured that is where it came from.

Two verses in Leviticus, offered as ample reason - or perhaps a mandate - to condemn a huge group of people to a life of scorn and shame for something with which they had little or nothing to do. Two verses from the same Old Testament as so many other admonitions that are used as weapons to divide. The same Old Testament that is filled with other admonitions that are freely ignored.

Those of you who have heard me play piano know that I play mostly hymns. These are Baptist hymns, folks - the religion of my youth. The religion that no longer has any place for me, if indeed it ever did. The selective use of passages from the Old Testament which have nothing to do with the teachings of Christ - and indeed run contrary to it - drove me away.

Breaking your neighbor's furniture does not make your furniture look any better. Using sacred text as justification for breaking it makes your own furniture look worse in the process.

WWJD?