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#770116 - 02/24/05 05:49 PM Re: To Christians
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Actually, I think it does. I don't think it is much disputed that gay men are far more promiscious than straights and for the sole reason that men are much more driven by their libidos. Our own Johnny Moon is testament to that. :3hearts: So, in a hetero mix, you have a libido-raging male with the femme who keeps him in check, right? The man always wants it, and the woman is always holding back and restraining him? In a homosexual mix, you don't have the check and balance.
[/b]
HUH?!?! I dont get this "femme holding him back" thing. That sounds like the dynamics of a relationship, which ofcourse, is one partner, whereas promiscuity is about several partners.

Men with the raging libidos can have sex as often as they like. If there is some femme holding back, the raging libido can find it elswhere. there is no shortage of women available for cheap taudry sex. And I have known many straight men who's women count is staggering. And many gay couples (men and women) who are extremely commited and faithful.

Again, promiscuity and homosexuality are entirely independent of each other.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#770117 - 02/24/05 05:56 PM Re: To Christians
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Sorry to not have clarified that, Matt. I was talking about men. I think lesbians are quite benign. Have you seen any of our contingent CW homophobes getting their dander up about them recently?


Really, do either of you (Sid or Matt) deny that men have a greater libido than women, speaking in generalities, of course?

And yes, Sid, men can go get it whereever they damn please, but they better be good players, have understanding partners, or just not care, because most women I know in supposedly monogamous relationships will not stand for their men satisying their primal urges outside the matrimonial bedroom. I trust the same holds for monogamous homo- relationships. That's all I'm saying. My point is very simple. Men are much more sex-driven than women. Put them together in sexual relationships (think bathhouses) and you have potential libido gone amuck, absent a committed monogamous relationship.

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#770118 - 02/24/05 06:06 PM Re: To Christians
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Sorry to not have clarified that, Matt. I was talking about men. I think lesbians are quite benign. Have you seen an of our regular CW homophobes getting their dander up about them recently?


Really, do either of you (Sid or Matt) deny that men have a greater libido than women, speaking in generalities, of course?

And yes, Sid, men can go get it whereever they damn please, but they better be good players, have understanding partners, or just not care, because most women I know in supposedly monogamous relationships will not stand for their men satisying their primal urges outside the matrimonial bedroom. I trust the same holds for monogamous homo- relationships. That's all I'm saying. My point is very simple. Men are sex-driven. Put them together in sexual relationships and you have potential libido gone amuck, absent a committed monogamous relationship. [/b]
Yes, men seem to have stronger libidos.

But in your promiscous scenario, you seem to be assuming a significant other (who will or will not stand for it). Promiscuity occurs with single people too (if not predominantly). My point being, the topic is unrelated to a relationship.

Although I do have a friend who is cohabitating with a woman, been with her for about 3 years. They are supposedly commited. But he pretty much bangs a different girl every night. He works in the club industry, so he's around hundreds at all times. I've seen him operate, its amazing. He's brought them over to share. I have no idea how this relationship works. I've never met her (seen her, she does exist), but all I can think is she's playing prolifically on the side too. But he's been over here, with women, afterhours, and the cell phone rings every half hour "when are you coming home". "I'm just hanging with buddy for some drinks, we'll be done soon". How can that work?
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#770119 - 02/24/05 06:17 PM Re: To Christians
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I'd say in your friend's case, his SO is very much contibuting to the rules of the game.

Of course, and indisputably, promiscuity occurs among both sexes, but I believe (Pardon my lack of energy to prove this with citations) that most studies will show that the sex-drive is much stronger in men, and ergo - promiscuity. And, in sex studies, the curbing force of that is monogamy, which traditionally, comes in the form a wife, children, and family to rear. For homosexuals, the counterpart would be a life partner.

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#770120 - 02/24/05 06:29 PM Re: To Christians
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Of course, and indisputably, promiscuity occurs among both sexes, but I believe (Pardon my lack of energy to prove this with citations) that most studies will show that the sex-drive is much stronger in men, and ergo - promiscuity.[/b]
I don't think this is a correct conclusion. Libido has no direct link to promiscuity, only to desire for sexual activity. Two partners with equivalent libido levels would have little need for promiscuity, all other things being equal. I think that promiscuity is a personality issue, not a hormone-driven genetic issue.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#770121 - 02/24/05 06:35 PM Re: To Christians
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Alas, no time at the moment to go and back myself up, but, a lot of what I've read would suggest otherwise. I think it's just a simple girl/boy difference thing. And, I am a strong proponent of the school of differences between the sexes. ;\)

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#770122 - 02/24/05 07:21 PM Re: To Christians
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
K: "Homosexuality is certainly not "healthy"."

Why do you say this? I saw no argument. It is not against the theory of evolution, since the human species is thriving, and many humans are homosexual. [/b]
The sex act in homosexuality is not as God or evolution designed. Please don't make me research the nasty things that can happen when going against nature. Not to mention HIV and AIDS.
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#770123 - 02/24/05 07:26 PM Re: To Christians
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
Not to mention HIV and AIDS. [/b]
Are you of the opinion that these are a consequence of homosexual activity? Someone needs a biology lesson....
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#770124 - 02/24/05 07:32 PM Re: To Christians
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
I'd consult a medical doctor about the differences between the muscle structure of the vagina and the anus. I understand there is quite a difference, and the anal tissue is quite more susceptible to tearing. But I am not a doctor, and will leave that to the professionals.
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Estonically yours,

Ivorythumper

"Man without mysticism is a monster"

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#770125 - 02/24/05 07:41 PM Re: To Christians
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by ivorythumper:
But I am not a doctor, and will leave that to the professionals. [/b]
Thanks for sharing. :rolleyes:
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#770126 - 02/24/05 07:44 PM Re: To Christians
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Actually, only a minority of male homosexuals (a significant minority, maybe 40%, but a minority nevertheless) enjoy anal intercourse, in either position. The most common, according to sex surveys I have read, are oral and manual sex. The same surveys indicate that about 10-20 percent of heterosexual couples enjoy anal activities.

Kincaid - "not as God or evolution designed"

This is clearly false, as a matter of factual evidence. Whether we were created by God or evolution or alien space beings, we were created with a certain large percentage (between 5 and 10 percent) who have homosexual desires. Homosexuality exists among both human and non-human primates. So homosexuality *is* clearly how either God or evolution or alien space beings "designed" some of us.

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#770127 - 02/24/05 08:43 PM Re: To Christians
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
Yes, I'm following closely. [/b]
I figured. To bad you aren't capable of understanding any of it, isn't it?
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#770128 - 02/24/05 09:02 PM Re: To Christians
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Boy this has taken an unfortunate turn. I'm almost embarrassed that Matt and Jeffrey offered rebuttals to these issues, as if these issues had the slightest validity without these rebuttals. This thread just lapsed back about 200 years.

Troglodytes abound. I'm loosing faith in mankind as an intelligent species.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#770129 - 02/24/05 11:07 PM Re: To Christians
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3006
Loc: Virginia, USA
RZ made a very good point about love vs sex and I think it deserves some amplification.

I would assert a couple of things that I can't prove but I think make sense and are consistent with scripture.

I think that the love of which RZ speaks is a "good thing" biblically; despite some of Paul's reservations about women and marriage (probably due to his "thorn"). This love between two people, solemnized by marriage and blessed by the church, seems to me to be what Jesus wanted. I don't think He necessarily meant it to be male-female only, just because he didn't specifically specify other combinations. I'm not sure that homosexuality even exists unambiguously in the New Testament, by the way, but clearly it does not in the OT.

If I start from the idea that this love is a desirable state, then I can't help think the other two sides of the triangle are the church and marriage. As a Christian I come from the viewpoint that love is most successful within a congregation of faithful and assisted by a sacramental marriage. As a heterosexual I am fortunate enough to have that. I cannot see how to deny that to another Christian simply by the accident of his/her being homosexual.

If you are a Christian, and if you value your own marriage and think its success has something to do with your faith, then what about your children? Do you deny them marriage and faith, if they turn out gay? This is something any of us can face.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#770130 - 02/24/05 11:25 PM Re: To Christians
AaronSF Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/07/04
Posts: 732
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
Troglodytes abound. I'm loosing faith in mankind as an intelligent species. [/b]
Only just now loosing faith? I lost faith in mankind as an intelligent species in 1968 during a little imbroglio called Vietnam. Nietzsche calls it the "eternal recurrance of the same." Human nature doesn't change, at least not at a perceptible rate. We periodically think we're evolving, some of us actually get our hopes up, then we just sink once again back into the morass of superstition, suspicion, xenophobia, hyper-nationalism, anti-intellectualism, racism, antisematism, sexism, homophobia, conspiracy theory, fundamentalism, fear, and finger pointing. Then we destroy a large chunk of mankind, are momentarily horrified at ourselves, sincerely promise ourselves to do better "for our children and their children," and then, before you can whistle "Dixie," the inexorable backslide in to ignorance and superstition begins again.

I see no reason for hope. Continued overpopulation will, by itself, destroy us, aided by disease we will not be able to treat because it is resistant to every drug we've developed, an environment that will increasingly rebel in an effort to right itself after being capsized by the industrial world, not to mention the endless religious/racial wars that soon will be fueled by nuclear weapons. Oh joy!

I just pray to god that I'm not around when it happens. Of course there are those who welcome the apocalypse, which just makes all this that more discouraging. Imagine looking forward to the end of the world because you've convinced yourself that you are going to be magically and rapturously wisked away to the Kingdom. Is it any wonder we're in such a mess!
_________________________
Aaron

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#770131 - 02/25/05 02:27 AM Re: To Christians
bachophile Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 742
Sid said...

 Quote:
as if these issues had the slightest validity without these rebuttals[/b]
i have been away, and so havent been involved in any threads lately, but having read this one, my only comment is...

tell the truth sid, u didnt realize you made a pun...
_________________________
"I don't know much about classical music. For years I thought the Goldberg Variations were something Mr. and Mrs. Goldberg did on their wedding night." Woody Allen

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#770132 - 02/25/05 05:13 AM Re: To Christians
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
Dwain - Your analogies with self-centeredness, or with adultery, or other human traits and actions we must restrain are false. [/b]
Jeffrey, I have never seen anyone decry the making of categorical statements without offering proof of their corrctness, while making so many of them themselves, as you. You've made aa few just in this post alone. This was the first one.

 Quote:
Homosexuality is not like this. It is a normal, healthy aspect of human sexuality. It is not morally wrong in any respect at all. [/b]
There are the second and third.

 Quote:
You have given no argument otherwise, nor have I ever seen on PW or elsewhere any actual argument (other than "God says so") to this effect. Therefore there is no distinction between hating the sin and the sinner...[/b]
To be honest, I've never seen you offer a single "proof" of your beliefs, either - especially here and now. You only offer categorical statements, with even far less explanation and reason than I've offered. Therefore, your "therefore" above seems a bit weak and sitting on a pretty shallow foundation.

As I said to MM, this thread asked for beliefs and opinions, and I offered them. I freely stated that the beliefs were based on my personal determination that the Christian scriptures were a reliable source to form beliefs in this regard. In other words, I offered an answer "as a Christian," as requested by the thread topic. I said that anyone who had not made a similar determination would quite possibly not reach the same conclusion, and that I would not use this thread to veer into some attempt to "prove" God, to itemize in detail my arguments for why I accept the legitimacy of the scriptures and the Christian tradition - that I would only discuss my beliefs relative to the topic, that result from that belief.

 Quote:
Also, you do not know if the injunction to self-hatred you propose for homosexuals is harder than what you put yourself through. You are not a homosexual. [/b]
For the sake of argument, how do you know that this is true? Do you know all the aspects of my life and experience, and interpersonal discussions and counseling with homosexual friends over the years, that have helped shape my ideas on this issue? After all, we're just names on a computer screen. You don't really know me, and I know you far less. And if, as I suspect, neither of us is homosexual, then your position refuting mine is based, exactly as much as mine, in projecting your thoughts into the shoes of someone whom you are not.

 Quote:
All the stuff about love and God and faith and etc. is off topic... [/b]
They may be off your topic, but not the topic of this thread, and the follow-up questions that were asked. Let me refresh your memory. The thread is titled "To Christians." It asked for a Christian's take on the issue of fornication. The thread then asked the follow-up question (which was the obvious original intent of the thread starter) that, in light of that position, what are the implications for attitudes toward homosexuality? This was the thread topic, Jeffrey. Your attempt to derail the thread into another debate to prove or disprove Christianity is what's actually off topic in this case.

Jeffrey, you are a very intelligent person. You have obviously dug into the question of faith and religion in your own life. You've done far more than many people who blindly follow the religious or non-religious traditions they're accustomed to, and I respect you and your search far more than those who haven't really examined the issue. In fact, I get the impression that your search/research is far more than just an intellectual pursuit; it's far more driven than would be explained by a simple academic interest. I think you've been internally drawn to your search, out of profound inner questions. As a Christian, I would define that as the Holy Spirit working within you to look for answers to those questions. The fact that - at least, for now - your research points you in a different direction doesn't negate that. A Christian can offer evidences to his faith. Some of these evidences can be logic-based, but because the ultimate aim of the proof transcends logic, logic will not be able to offer a final, comprehensive proof. There is, as Steve said, a suprarational aspect to the question, at the end of the line of all other logical, rational arguments. In your many posts regarding this issue, you seem to need such final logic-based proof, and since it isn't forthcoming, you reject the possibility of God in general, and Christianity in particular.

It is interesting how many very intelligent, skeptical people, like yourself, keep digging into Christianity in an attempt to disprove its historical foundations and its spritual credibility, and after years, ultimately find themselves among the strongest "defenders of the faith." This model is nothing new; it goes back to the very beginnings of the Christian faith.

You may remain firmly convinced of the convictions that you hold today, for the rest of your life. You may not. Who knows? But given what I've seen of you in your writings, I wouldn't be at all surprised if someday you found yourself sitting on the other side of the table, having a similar conversation to the one I'm currently having with you, and thinking about the other person "that used to be me." Just like I'm thinking right now.

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#770133 - 02/25/05 05:42 AM Re: To Christians
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
[Actually, I think it does. I don't think it is much disputed that gay men are far more promiscious than straights and for the sole reason that men are much more driven by their libidos. Our own Johnny Moon is testament to that. :3hearts: So, in a hetero mix, you have a libido-raging male with the femme who keeps him in check, right? The man always wants it, and the woman is always holding back and restraining him? In a homosexual mix, you don't have the check and balance. That's one of the reasons I think gay marriage is a really good thing. Let's encourage commitment and monagomy. If gay guys strive toward comitted relationships, it can only stand to stablilize society - less sexually transimtted disease, more happiness all the way around, no?

/QB][/QUOTE]

Finally, a woman who truly understands me!! Kathy, will you marry me? :3hearts:
Glad to see you're back!
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#770134 - 02/25/05 06:33 AM Re: To Christians
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
AaronSF,

Ever see the "Debbie Downer" sketches on Saturday Night Live?....

Just kidding. Your post is all too true.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#770135 - 02/25/05 07:49 AM Re: To Christians
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
In your many posts regarding this issue, you seem to need such final logic-based proof, and since it isn't forthcoming, you reject the possibility of God in general, and Christianity in particular.

[/b]
If I could just interject here (and I dont presume to speak for Jeffrey), but the intellectual's approach to the question I dont believe is based on "needing such final logic-based proof", rather it's about the recognizing the very obvious earthly origins of the mythology. The intellectual is well aware that there is no proof one way or the other, but when religion is so identifiable as an anthropological construct equal to mythology, why would the thinking man NOT adhere to such reasonable assessments?

The call for "proof" only comes when religious zealots wave around their faiths proclaiming them as fact and law that apply to everybody. The burden of proof is then squarely on them as they are the ones making the claims. Then the intellectual asks for proof, and is accused of lacking this "suprarational" capacity. Thats just game playing.

And I'm a bit saddened by the painting of the image of Jeffrey doing a 180 at some future date and arguing the opposite point of view. That seems to show a lack of respect for his sensibilities and comes off, to me, as a bit of gamesmanship.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#770136 - 02/25/05 08:12 AM Re: To Christians
TimR Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3006
Loc: Virginia, USA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
Let me refresh your memory. The thread is titled "To Christians." It asked for a Christian's take on the issue of fornication. The thread then asked the follow-up question (which was the obvious original intent of the thread starter) that, in light of that position, what are the implications for attitudes toward homosexuality? [/QB]
But Dwain, I AM a Christian.

And yet I am unable to see any difference at all in the expression of love within marriage. This is based on my sincere attempt to understand the intent of scripture. (I am not a literalist nor a fundamentalist, admittedly. Proudly admittedly )

Because of that, I have concluded that it is my duty as a Christian to support gay marriage, so that they can have the same opportunity I do to express their love within a church sanctioned, sacramental marriage. So I argue this point on any forum where it comes up. I have yet to see a counterargument that is not based on either some active homosexual hatred, or some personal "gross-out" factor, and then is supported ex post facto by twisting some scripture.

I will admit that my own church (Anglican) does not support this stance, and has been badly hurt recently by one diocese's small movement in this direction. However, my conscience connvinces me it is the right thing to do. WJWD.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#770137 - 02/25/05 08:28 AM Re: To Christians
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
Not to mention HIV and AIDS. [/b]
Are you of the opinion that these are a consequence of homosexual activity? Someone needs a biology lesson.... [/b]
I am of the opinion that HIV and AIDS have affected the gay community much more so than the straight community. This is, I imagine, due to the issue of promiscuity. At this point, I would also add that I think Kathyk has a lot of common sense on the issue of male v. female promiscuity.
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#770138 - 02/25/05 09:08 AM Re: To Christians
Kincaid Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/04
Posts: 476
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
Actually, only a minority of male homosexuals (a significant minority, maybe 40%, but a minority nevertheless) enjoy anal intercourse, in either position. The most common, according to sex surveys I have read, are oral and manual sex. The same surveys indicate that about 10-20 percent of heterosexual couples enjoy anal activities.

Kincaid - "not as God or evolution designed"

This is clearly false, as a matter of factual evidence. Whether we were created by God or evolution or alien space beings, we were created with a certain large percentage (between 5 and 10 percent) who have homosexual desires. Homosexuality exists among both human and non-human primates. So homosexuality *is* clearly how either God or evolution or alien space beings "designed" some of us. [/b]
I think the anus was "designed" (or evolved, if one prefers) to assist in ridding the body of waste products. I don't think it was meant to be used in any other fashion. If 40% of gays and 20% of straights use the anus to pleasure their partners, it can cause unfortunate consequences. I think these health problems are decidedly unhealthy.

If we take sex out of the issue and just talk about the desire to love another person, I see no health consequences in this.

Regarding homosexuality being designed by God (if you believe in God), I would first say that we have a difference in opinion on what percentage of the populace is homosexual and what constitutes "large". I think the percentage is smaller than you think. Secondly, if homosexuality is not genetic, then I don't see how it can be of God. If it is genetic, it comes out of the state of the fallen world and is again, in my religious world view, not of God.
_________________________
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. (1 Pet 4:7-8 NIV)

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#770139 - 02/25/05 09:25 AM Re: To Christians
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Just a point re physiology and anatomy ... adding to the trivia ...
Is this too much information for y'all?

[My apoIogies. I deleted the nauseating part. Don't want to sicken anyone here.]

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#770140 - 02/25/05 09:26 AM Re: To Christians
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
I am of the opinion that HIV and AIDS have affected the gay community much more so than the straight community. This is, I imagine, due to the issue of promiscuity.[/b]
This guy was certainly promiscuous.

Super-HIV man had sex with 100[/b]
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/284403p-243554c.html

The New York man who sparked fears of a powerful new strain of HIV had drug-fueled, unprotected sex with more than 100 men in the months before his diagnosis...the new strain is resistant to 19 of 20 drugs used to fight the HIV virus and becomes full-blown AIDS in months, not years.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#770141 - 02/25/05 09:27 AM Re: To Christians
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by katie:
Is this too much information for y'all? [/b]
Yes.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#770142 - 02/25/05 09:32 AM Re: To Christians
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Sorry Gryph ... I deleted the nauseating part.

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#770143 - 02/25/05 09:38 AM Re: To Christians
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Siddhartha:
If I could just interject here [/b]
Sure, feel free.

 Quote:

the intellectual's approach to the question I dont believe is based on "needing such final logic-based proof", rather it's about the recognizing the very obvious earthly origins of the mythology. The intellectual is well aware that there is no proof one way or the other, but when religion is so identifiable as an anthropological construct equal to mythology, why would the thinking man NOT adhere to such reasonable assessments? [/b]
If, indeed, religious faith truly were so obviously of earthly origins, and a solely human construct, it would seem ridiculous - I'd even say impossible - for any thinking person to adhere to religious faith. The fact that so many, self included, actually do, and that we are equally convinced of its non-human origin, by definition negates the supposition that its falsehood is as obvious as you think.

 Quote:
The call for "proof" only comes when religious zealots wave around their faiths proclaiming them as fact and law that apply to everybody. The burden of proof is then squarely on them as they are the ones making the claims. [/b]
Actually, the reverse is true. One of the truly remarkable aspects of human existence is that regardless of time, place, or circumstance, the vast majority of humans have shown a belief in a deity or deities. The varieties of this expression have been many, but it is unquestionable that the norm of human existence is to have an innate understanding, and belief, that there is a supreme entity or entities of some description to which they are, in varying degrees, accountable to or originating from. Even more confounding than the fact that such beliefs are so universal, is the fact that they also exist - thrive, even - at times and places when such belief is uncomfortable, or trying to be quashed, even to the point of physical harm or death. The fact that so many have been willing to die for their religion indicates how deeply the beliefs are held, and how convinced the particular person is that their belief is significantly more than myth.

Given those facts, the concept of atheism, or nontheism, is actually the human anomaly, not the other way around. And it is therefore up to them to offer concrete proof of their belief that, contrary to the overwhelming understanding of human experience throughout time and place, God does not exist.

 Quote:
And I'm a bit saddened by the painting of the image of Jeffrey doing a 180 at some future date and arguing the opposite point of view. That seems to show a lack of respect for his sensibilities and comes off, to me, as a bit of gamesmanship. [/b]
I don't propose that, should Jeffrey change his beliefs in the future, that it would be doing a 180. I think his research is already following the right path. I'm just not convinced that his search is truly complete, or that he is, or will remain, fully comfortable with the answers that he's reached at this point based on his research. And there's nothing that I've said to Jeffrey that is disrespectful to him. I have a tremendous amount of respect for him, and he knows it, based on both public and private discussion. I only offered a personal sense of his comments, tempered by my own personal experiences. People change as they progress through life. Some core concepts remain always, and others change. Who knows where we'll all end? I'd invite Jeffrey - and you too, Sid - to print this thread out, and tuck it into some papers that you have to keep, and forget about it. Then, some time down the road, maybe 10 or 15 years from now, you'll accidentally stumble across it and read it. You might see it and think, "My God, what a deluded idiot that Lee character was!" Or you might think, "Well, I'll be, that guy actually had a point." Either way, you'll enjoy re-reading it.

And my comments to Jeffrey (or you), are most definitely not gamesmanship. I respect Jeffrey, and the subject matter, too much to play games with either.

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#770144 - 02/25/05 09:47 AM Re: To Christians
RZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/05/04
Posts: 515
Loc: Anaheim, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kincaid:
Not to mention HIV and AIDS. [/b]
Are you of the opinion that these are a consequence of homosexual activity? Someone needs a biology lesson.... [/b]
I am of the opinion that HIV and AIDS have affected the gay community much more so than the straight community. This is, I imagine, due to the issue of promiscuity. At this point, I would also add that I think Kathyk has a lot of common sense on the issue of male v. female promiscuity. [/b]
You may wish to study the horrendous statsistics coming out of Africa. AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality.

Top
#770145 - 02/25/05 09:52 AM Re: To Christians
Horace Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 505
 Quote:
Originally posted by RZ:
You may wish to study the horrendous statsistics coming out of Africa. AIDS has nothing to do with homosexuality. [/b]
It is massively correlated with homosexuality in this country. In Africa, the vectors of the virus are different.

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