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Well, it seems when we buy a piano in the US, we sign some contract made to protect dealer's profit at the cost of consumer's interest. Dealers say there is no cooling off period because piano is a big ticket item. But there are, for buying homes and cars, which are generally more expensive then pianos.

In addition, we got some bogus "LIST PRICE" that do not mean anything, and when I was buying a piano, piano prices were so hidden from the consumer, I had no idea what the fair price could be until I spent hours and hours in the internet search. Although I had a good deal for my new C1 and paid less than what most people paid for a new GC1, I think there are so many consumers who are treated unfairly while paying too much for the piano. I feel this is not right.

In Japan and Europe, they pay lot less for the Japanese pianos than we do in the US, and prices are not hidden. The prices in Japan and Europe also seem very similar. Having more information is always good and I hope this price list will help future buyers when they are buying Yamaha / Kawai grand pianos. They are available in Japanese yamaha/kawai web sites. Kawai manufacturer's prices were little harder to find and they were in pdf format. You can easily translate Japanese to English with some web translation tools. Street prices are lower than the manufacturer's prices, and Kawais sell little less on the street than Yamahas in Japan.

Yamaha Grands:
Manufacturer's published price with tax
C1L $10,492 ¥1,207,500
C2L $11,861 ¥1,365,000
C3L $14,598 ¥1,680,000
C5L $16,423 ¥1,890,000
C6L $20,072 ¥2,310,000
C7L $23,722 ¥2,730,000
S4B $35,583 ¥4,095,000
S6B $40,145 ¥4,620,000
CFIII $100,361 ¥11,550,000

Yamaha Digitals:
CLP-280PM $4,014 ¥462,000.00
CLP-280PE $3,741 ¥430,500.00
CLP-280 $3,376 ¥388,500.00
CLP-270 $2,824 ¥325,000.00
CLP-240 $2,080 ¥239,400.00
CLP-230 $1,533 ¥176,400.00

CVP-309PM $5,748 ¥661,500.00
CVP-309PE $5,474 ¥630,000.00
CVP-307 $4,562 ¥525,000.00
CVP-305 $3,467 ¥399,000.00
CVP-303 $2,555 ¥294,000.00

Kawai Grands:
Manufacturer's published price with tax, Internet dealer Price
RX-1G $10,949 ¥1,260,000, $9,306 ¥1,071,000
RX-2G $12,317 ¥1,417,500, $10,462 ¥1,204,000
RX-3G $15,054 ¥1,732,500, $12,791 ¥1,472,000
RX-5G $16,879 ¥1,942,500, $14,346 ¥1,651,000
RX-6G $20,528 ¥2,362,500
RX-7G $24,178 ¥2,782,500
SK-2 $17,499 ¥2,013,900
SK-3 $20,237 ¥2,328,900
SK-5 $22,974 ¥2,643,900
SK-6 $39,853 ¥4,586,400
SK-7 $47,152 ¥5,426,400
GS-100 $61,129 ¥7,035,000
EX $90,325 ¥10,395,000

At the risk of sounding cold-no pun intended . . ."cooling off periods" although they have their uses (think elderly, ill or very young adults) should not be required. A competent adult should not need "rescuing" from their own personal inability to restrain themselves from buying something they really don't want! Sales pitch not withstanding!

Nor is a "contract made to protect dealer's profit at the cost of consumer's interest". It is protection on both sides. As someone pointed out on another thread, just imagine the furor if a dealer turned around and RESOLD a piano that a consumer had bought & was awaiting delivery on just because the dealer was offered more money or simply "changed his mind"!!!!

We keep talking about Dealers on these boards like they are huge corporations loaded with profits but many dealers are small businesses that must make a living like everyone else! Think some of their attitudes regarding returns are great.

If you are buying any large ticket item you owe it to your pocketbook to do your homework. If you are unsure going into a contract do as someone else mentioned-have it written in that you can get your money back within x # of days should you change your mind.

Fortunately Larry Fines Piano Book (available on this website)is available to give more realistic list prices & an idea of discounts & real prices.

Ps. I'm not unsympathetic to the buyer on the other thread, heck hope she gets the piano she wants however she may have to give some "consideration" to get out of it and hope the dealer is willing as well.

Stepping off my soap box now.
HAPPY MOTHERS DAY!
I got a new motorcycle--a silver 2006 Legacy 250 (anyone want to buy a 2004 Kymco 250 scooter?!) & 2 red wheelbarrow planter boxes that my boys made

Goldberg7, if you don't mind, could you please show me and the others the source of that information? Thank you in advance.

Goldberg7,

I'm not sure what your intention was for listing the street prices for Yamaha and Kawai in Europe and Japan. What is your point?

I can buy Jamician rum in St. Thomas for $2.29 a bottle. But it is priced much higher here in the US! I can buy quality Chianti in Italy real cheap. But the same bottle cost more here! So I fail to understand you point about prices of pianos in Japan and Europe.

If retail prices were hidden from you when you were shopping for your piano, you shopped at the wrong dealership. For instance, each and every piano in all our locations are marked with the mfg. sugg. retail price and our sales price. We are also able to show you the Ancott blue book as well as Larry Fine's publications. There is nothing hidden from the consumer.

Regarding "cooling-off periods", I believe each state has laws protecting the consumer (in Massachusetts, it's 3 business days). So, IMHO, the are no hidden agendas when our customers sign the purchase agreement.

Finally, Yamaha's prices here in the US are goverened by Yamaha Corp. of America (and not Yamaha Europe or Yamaha Corp. Japan). There are many reasons why they differ (and they always have). These reasons include the value of the dollar versus the yen and the Euro. Also, each country negotiates pricing with Yamaha Japan independently.

So, to blame Yamaha dealers here in the states for pricing is way off base. They no longer have control of selling grands and Disklaviers at rock-bottom prices. When you purchased your C1, these controls were not in place. You just happened to luck out.

For Yamaha, easy

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/product/pi/prd/grp/c/

For Kawai prices, I had to surf the Japanese web for a while with cut/paste search of Japanese characters, and it took a while. I did this some time ago, and I do not want to do it again. But anyone with patient can do it.

Thank you for the Yamaha link. I've spent time looking for those prices, but failed. I've never tried the Japanese website,though

No matter how "bad" you think Yamaha and Kawai are with price transparency for consumers, with the exception of Steinway, all others do even worse in this regard.

Try to find price info for new M&H, Walter, Grotrian, Bl&uunl;thner, Seiler, Sauter, Bösendorfer, Bechstein (and sub-brands), August Förster, Estonia, Bohemia, Petrof, Samick (and sub-brands), Schimmel (and Vogel), Schulz-Pollmann, Fazioli, etc. like you have done with Yamaha/Kawai, and see how far you can get.

In the US, as far as minimizing the variance among prices paid by different customers is concerned (in the US for the same model):

1. Steinway does the best in this regard
2. Yamaha follows in second place due to high dealership density (for easier comparison shopping) and high unit sales volume (street price info tends to get more easily disseminated that way); Yamaha and may eventually tie with Steinway if they stick to their new "minimum price" policy
3. Kawai probably trail by a long distance (but still better than most others because of their large unit sales volume, price info tends to get out easier with larger unit sales volume)
4. ... then far, far behind, there's everything else.

Axtremus:

This is the main reason why buying a piano is a far more traumatic experience for most of us (non-industry insiders) than it needs to be. Here in Singapore (Yamaha excepted) it is quite possible to be quoted three different prices on the same piano by three different sales staff in the same shop. Even at the reputable dealers. (Actually, the most 'reputable' dealers in Singapore are the worst - and Steinway is the least price transparent brand here, with prices being almost twice the US retail). Left me with such a bad feeling that I wouldn't have bought a piano from them if I had any other possible options.

I think that's why Yamaha is so popular here. There is at least a reasonable degree of price transparency, and the sales staff don't make you feel like you just walked into the worst type of used car sales room. Prices are consistently about 25-30% above the prices quoted above, but are clearly displayed, and the salesman doesn't give you a wink and a nudge and suggest that he might be able to negotiate a 'discount' with his boss. Just for you. Because you're special. <shudders>.

Very well put!

Hello everyone, regarding finding out the list price of a piano, some of the major distributors will tell you what the list price should be. When I called Yamaha Corporation U.S the person on the phone gladly told me the list price for every piano I inquired about. When I paid visit to the Yamaha store in Thousand Oaks california, the list was the same as quoted. This was the same for Schimmel america and also for Geneva Inernational for the Nordiska line. However when I called the main U.S distributor for Estonia, they refused to give any price information and was very rude on the phone. They said talk to your local dealer about what the pianos should sell for. They also refused to send to me a brochure! So I would think that for the most part the dealers are honest about what the retail, List is so it makes it easier to figure a discount and final negociated price. Because it should not be a secret as to what the retail or list price is. It should be the same for every store in the United States. As to how much discount can be given, then of course that can varie.

Goldberg7,

Perhaps you could help put your research in perspective. How much would a Toyoto or Honda sell for in Japan compared to the US? Some models are sold in both countries.

Goldberg 7,
you said the price in Europe is similar to in Japan. I just saw some S6 yesterday in different locations. Your price seems to be way off than what I saw. They were in the mid 40,000 euros. Out of curiosity, i checked on a website for US price (bluebookofpianos.com), and I was so shocked it was priced around 80,000 dollars.

Can anyone tell me how much S6 usually costs in US?

To continue with Yamaha:

T121 ¥441,000 $ 3,800
U1 ¥598,500 $ 5,200
U3 ¥735,000 $ 6,400
U5 ¥1,081,500 $ 9,400
U7 ¥2,100,000 $ 18,200

Note that U5 is slightly cheaper than C1 and U7 is more expensive than C5. :p

'Price transparency' is no problem today considering the powers of the internet.

In fact I have, at least in the past, been often surprised about the actual price fluctuations involving actual selling prices across the country, this involving some of the biggest piano corporations,including very much Yamaha itself.

For example,upon visiting some Yamaha stores recently in the North of both British Columbia and Alberta, it was my impression that pianos were sold there at about 15-25% higher than here down on the West Coast.

Perhaps this exactly was the reason that Yamaha apparently came up recently with a policy in the U.S. by which these real or perceived fluctuations in prices were to be stopped by new and binding price guidelines for their own dealers.

Now, if you need to have a price on a Seiler, Sauter, Estonia, Charles Walter or what have you, jump on the internet and get your full 'price transparency' in about..... 30 minutes.

heck, we're held to it all the time ourselves!

Norbert

are these prices accurate. If so, why do the prices seem so much higher in the US?

No, these prices are not accurate. For a myriad of reasons, prices in North America vary greatly on most products when compared to Asia or Europe.

For one, there's less B.S. - at least in Europe.....

Norbert

My goodness. A Shigeru Kawai SK3 for $20,200, and a SK5 for $23,000? Where can I get one here in the US?

My wife and I have been in the market for a new grand, but the past year of intensive searching have left us mentally exhausted. We have settled on a Shigeru Kawai SK3, but we would love to have an SK5 if we can afford it. Prices we have seen are closed to $50,000 around here where we live, which is way too ridiculous. If you know where we can get one on the internet here in the US for around $25,000, please end our madness and let us know where. Thank you.

Get it from Goldberg, he can get them below dealer cost.

Goldberg, I'm afraid to tell you you're not on the ball.

The best way to get a low price for a Yamaha or Kawai is to tell the dealer you're about to buy a Steigerman piano elsewhere.....

Norbert