Well, it seems when we buy a piano in the US, we sign some contract made to protect dealer's profit at the cost of consumer's interest. Dealers say there is no cooling off period because piano is a big ticket item. But there are, for buying homes and cars, which are generally more expensive then pianos.

In addition, we got some bogus "LIST PRICE" that do not mean anything, and when I was buying a piano, piano prices were so hidden from the consumer, I had no idea what the fair price could be until I spent hours and hours in the internet search. Although I had a good deal for my new C1 and paid less than what most people paid for a new GC1, I think there are so many consumers who are treated unfairly while paying too much for the piano. I feel this is not right.

In Japan and Europe, they pay lot less for the Japanese pianos than we do in the US, and prices are not hidden. The prices in Japan and Europe also seem very similar. Having more information is always good and I hope this price list will help future buyers when they are buying Yamaha / Kawai grand pianos. They are available in Japanese yamaha/kawai web sites. Kawai manufacturer's prices were little harder to find and they were in pdf format. You can easily translate Japanese to English with some web translation tools. Street prices are lower than the manufacturer's prices, and Kawais sell little less on the street than Yamahas in Japan.

Yamaha Grands:
Manufacturer's published price with tax
C1L $10,492 ¥1,207,500
C2L $11,861 ¥1,365,000
C3L $14,598 ¥1,680,000
C5L $16,423 ¥1,890,000
C6L $20,072 ¥2,310,000
C7L $23,722 ¥2,730,000
S4B $35,583 ¥4,095,000
S6B $40,145 ¥4,620,000
CFIII $100,361 ¥11,550,000

Yamaha Digitals:
CLP-280PM $4,014 ¥462,000.00
CLP-280PE $3,741 ¥430,500.00
CLP-280 $3,376 ¥388,500.00
CLP-270 $2,824 ¥325,000.00
CLP-240 $2,080 ¥239,400.00
CLP-230 $1,533 ¥176,400.00

CVP-309PM $5,748 ¥661,500.00
CVP-309PE $5,474 ¥630,000.00
CVP-307 $4,562 ¥525,000.00
CVP-305 $3,467 ¥399,000.00
CVP-303 $2,555 ¥294,000.00

Kawai Grands:
Manufacturer's published price with tax, Internet dealer Price
RX-1G $10,949 ¥1,260,000, $9,306 ¥1,071,000
RX-2G $12,317 ¥1,417,500, $10,462 ¥1,204,000
RX-3G $15,054 ¥1,732,500, $12,791 ¥1,472,000
RX-5G $16,879 ¥1,942,500, $14,346 ¥1,651,000
RX-6G $20,528 ¥2,362,500
RX-7G $24,178 ¥2,782,500
SK-2 $17,499 ¥2,013,900
SK-3 $20,237 ¥2,328,900
SK-5 $22,974 ¥2,643,900
SK-6 $39,853 ¥4,586,400
SK-7 $47,152 ¥5,426,400
GS-100 $61,129 ¥7,035,000
EX $90,325 ¥10,395,000

At the risk of sounding cold-no pun intended . . ."cooling off periods" although they have their uses (think elderly, ill or very young adults) should not be required. A competent adult should not need "rescuing" from their own personal inability to restrain themselves from buying something they really don't want! Sales pitch not withstanding!

Nor is a "contract made to protect dealer's profit at the cost of consumer's interest". It is protection on both sides. As someone pointed out on another thread, just imagine the furor if a dealer turned around and RESOLD a piano that a consumer had bought & was awaiting delivery on just because the dealer was offered more money or simply "changed his mind"!!!!

We keep talking about Dealers on these boards like they are huge corporations loaded with profits but many dealers are small businesses that must make a living like everyone else! Think some of their attitudes regarding returns are great.

If you are buying any large ticket item you owe it to your pocketbook to do your homework. If you are unsure going into a contract do as someone else mentioned-have it written in that you can get your money back within x # of days should you change your mind.

Fortunately Larry Fines Piano Book (available on this website)is available to give more realistic list prices & an idea of discounts & real prices.

Ps. I'm not unsympathetic to the buyer on the other thread, heck hope she gets the piano she wants however she may have to give some "consideration" to get out of it and hope the dealer is willing as well.

Stepping off my soap box now.
HAPPY MOTHERS DAY!
I got a new motorcycle--a silver 2006 Legacy 250 (anyone want to buy a 2004 Kymco 250 scooter?!) & 2 red wheelbarrow planter boxes that my boys made

Goldberg7, if you don't mind, could you please show me and the others the source of that information? Thank you in advance.

Goldberg7,

I'm not sure what your intention was for listing the street prices for Yamaha and Kawai in Europe and Japan. What is your point?

I can buy Jamician rum in St. Thomas for $2.29 a bottle. But it is priced much higher here in the US! I can buy quality Chianti in Italy real cheap. But the same bottle cost more here! So I fail to understand you point about prices of pianos in Japan and Europe.

If retail prices were hidden from you when you were shopping for your piano, you shopped at the wrong dealership. For instance, each and every piano in all our locations are marked with the mfg. sugg. retail price and our sales price. We are also able to show you the Ancott blue book as well as Larry Fine's publications. There is nothing hidden from the consumer.

Regarding "cooling-off periods", I believe each state has laws protecting the consumer (in Massachusetts, it's 3 business days). So, IMHO, the are no hidden agendas when our customers sign the purchase agreement.

Finally, Yamaha's prices here in the US are goverened by Yamaha Corp. of America (and not Yamaha Europe or Yamaha Corp. Japan). There are many reasons why they differ (and they always have). These reasons include the value of the dollar versus the yen and the Euro. Also, each country negotiates pricing with Yamaha Japan independently.

So, to blame Yamaha dealers here in the states for pricing is way off base. They no longer have control of selling grands and Disklaviers at rock-bottom prices. When you purchased your C1, these controls were not in place. You just happened to luck out.

For Yamaha, easy

http://www.yamaha.co.jp/product/pi/prd/grp/c/

For Kawai prices, I had to surf the Japanese web for a while with cut/paste search of Japanese characters, and it took a while. I did this some time ago, and I do not want to do it again. But anyone with patient can do it.

Thank you for the Yamaha link. I've spent time looking for those prices, but failed. I've never tried the Japanese website,though

No matter how "bad" you think Yamaha and Kawai are with price transparency for consumers, with the exception of Steinway, all others do even worse in this regard.

Try to find price info for new M&H, Walter, Grotrian, Bl&uunl;thner, Seiler, Sauter, Bösendorfer, Bechstein (and sub-brands), August Förster, Estonia, Bohemia, Petrof, Samick (and sub-brands), Schimmel (and Vogel), Schulz-Pollmann, Fazioli, etc. like you have done with Yamaha/Kawai, and see how far you can get.

In the US, as far as minimizing the variance among prices paid by different customers is concerned (in the US for the same model):

1. Steinway does the best in this regard
2. Yamaha follows in second place due to high dealership density (for easier comparison shopping) and high unit sales volume (street price info tends to get more easily disseminated that way); Yamaha and may eventually tie with Steinway if they stick to their new "minimum price" policy
3. Kawai probably trail by a long distance (but still better than most others because of their large unit sales volume, price info tends to get out easier with larger unit sales volume)
4. ... then far, far behind, there's everything else.

Axtremus:

This is the main reason why buying a piano is a far more traumatic experience for most of us (non-industry insiders) than it needs to be. Here in Singapore (Yamaha excepted) it is quite possible to be quoted three different prices on the same piano by three different sales staff in the same shop. Even at the reputable dealers. (Actually, the most 'reputable' dealers in Singapore are the worst - and Steinway is the least price transparent brand here, with prices being almost twice the US retail). Left me with such a bad feeling that I wouldn't have bought a piano from them if I had any other possible options.

I think that's why Yamaha is so popular here. There is at least a reasonable degree of price transparency, and the sales staff don't make you feel like you just walked into the worst type of used car sales room. Prices are consistently about 25-30% above the prices quoted above, but are clearly displayed, and the salesman doesn't give you a wink and a nudge and suggest that he might be able to negotiate a 'discount' with his boss. Just for you. Because you're special. .

Very well put!

Hello everyone, regarding finding out the list price of a piano, some of the major distributors will tell you what the list price should be. When I called Yamaha Corporation U.S the person on the phone gladly told me the list price for every piano I inquired about. When I paid visit to the Yamaha store in Thousand Oaks california, the list was the same as quoted. This was the same for Schimmel america and also for Geneva Inernational for the Nordiska line. However when I called the main U.S distributor for Estonia, they refused to give any price information and was very rude on the phone. They said talk to your local dealer about what the pianos should sell for. They also refused to send to me a brochure! So I would think that for the most part the dealers are honest about what the retail, List is so it makes it easier to figure a discount and final negociated price. Because it should not be a secret as to what the retail or list price is. It should be the same for every store in the United States. As to how much discount can be given, then of course that can varie.

Goldberg7,

Perhaps you could help put your research in perspective. How much would a Toyoto or Honda sell for in Japan compared to the US? Some models are sold in both countries.

Goldberg 7,
you said the price in Europe is similar to in Japan. I just saw some S6 yesterday in different locations. Your price seems to be way off than what I saw. They were in the mid 40,000 euros. Out of curiosity, i checked on a website for US price (bluebookofpianos.com), and I was so shocked it was priced around 80,000 dollars.

Can anyone tell me how much S6 usually costs in US?

To continue with Yamaha:

T121 ¥441,000 $ 3,800
U1 ¥598,500 $ 5,200
U3 ¥735,000 $ 6,400
U5 ¥1,081,500 $ 9,400
U7 ¥2,100,000 $ 18,200

Note that U5 is slightly cheaper than C1 and U7 is more expensive than C5. :p

'Price transparency' is no problem today considering the powers of the internet.

In fact I have, at least in the past, been often surprised about the actual price fluctuations involving actual selling prices[/b] across the country, this involving some of the biggest piano corporations,including very much Yamaha itself.

For example,upon visiting some Yamaha stores recently in the North of both British Columbia and Alberta, it was my impression that pianos were sold there at about 15-25% higher than here down on the West Coast.

Perhaps this exactly was the reason that Yamaha apparently came up recently with a policy in the U.S. by which these real or perceived fluctuations in prices were to be stopped by new and binding price guidelines for their own dealers.

Now, if you need to have a price on a Seiler, Sauter, Estonia, Charles Walter or what have you, jump on the internet and get your full 'price transparency' in about..... 30 minutes.

Hell, we're held to it all the time ourselves!

Norbert

are these prices accurate. If so, why do the prices seem so much higher in the US?

No, these prices are not accurate. For a myriad of reasons, prices in North America vary greatly on most products when compared to Asia or Europe.

For one, there's less B.S. - at least in Europe.....

Norbert

My goodness. A Shigeru Kawai SK3 for $20,200, and a SK5 for $23,000? Where can I get one here in the US?

My wife and I have been in the market for a new grand, but the past year of intensive searching have left us mentally exhausted. We have settled on a Shigeru Kawai SK3, but we would love to have an SK5 if we can afford it. Prices we have seen are closed to $50,000 around here where we live, which is way too ridiculous. If you know where we can get one on the internet here in the US for around $25,000, please end our madness and let us know where. Thank you.

Get it from Goldberg, he can get them below dealer cost.

Goldberg, I'm afraid to tell you you're not on the ball.

The best way to get a low price for a Yamaha or Kawai is to tell the dealer you're about to buy a Steigerman piano elsewhere.....

Norbert

this is absurd

goldberg

can you get seiler, bosenderfer, estonia and steinway wholesle price to me and tell me where to buy. I pay $40,000. for seiler grand, can I get refund.

private message ok.

Hey Goldberg,

What gives man? What about these oil rich tycoons that made tens of Billions in profit last year (2006)? Leave this small industry alone. You are wasting you efforts man. Go after the rich oil companies instead…

Why do you consistently display prices of pianos from Yamaha & Kawai. What about Steinway & Sons, Mason & Hamlin, Bosendorfer, Fazioli, Seiler, Sauter, etc……….

*OLD THREAD ALERT*

Goldberg7 has not been around since last July and I have the feeling he may have been banned based on my memory of just his name.

For all we know he was a sock and thus lives on within us.

Is there a way to know if someone has been banned?

Don't flame the guy for trying to help us with the posted prices. He went through a lot of work to be able to copy and paste the Kawai prices. People come to this forum all the time, and most of the time they do not contribute anything. But when one does try, God help him.

I would like to buy SK-3 and SK-5 at goldbergs price and I'm a shigeru dealer if that tells anyone anything about the prices.

I'm not sure what good is does me the consumer, to post prices from other continents. So what? I should travel to Japan and bring back a piano? I would love to pay $14,500 for a C3, but instead, I'm looking at a GC1. And a CVP-303 for $2500? That wouldn't even get me a 301.

So what's the point?

So how likely is it for us here in the US to get a new SK-5 for around $30,000? I would like to get one tomorrow if I can. Let me know.

Yes, Kawai had been list pricing the SKs as above in the past. But, they withdrawn the prices of the SKs from the web in a few years age and I am wondering whether 1)they are going to change(of course to the higher) the list prices, 2)due to raw material shortage, they are unable to carry the SK business in list-price-bases or 3)they are going to sell SKs only to qualfied customers.
Actually, in four years ago, when I was wondering which SK2 or Boston 178 to choose, the list prices were the same and non-negotiatable on both SKs and Bostons with a Kawai dealership.
The soundboard of SK-series is made of Hokkaido spruce seasoned for five years. Also, SK owners are given a right being serviced by MPA. These two resources, 5-year seasoned Hokkaido spruce and MPA , are limited and Kawai is not able to increase production of SKs only by correcting numbers in production plan.
　When they started the SK project, I guess, Kawai put the very low list prices for SKs in order to win the tough competition with Yam, but eventually they have got the win and they are suffering shortage of SKs. If I were a member of the board of Kawai, I would withdraw the list price from the web in order to avoid orders from overseas, qualify customers(only to end users whose profesions are music-related)and sell at highter prices.
Buying an SK is not only obtaining the SK piano, but also receiving services by MPA. As I know of, number of MPAs in the world is thirty-something. I think you can purchase SK5s direct from Japan(probably by mail order) at around usd30,000/each, but transportation of such precious instruments have to be by air, or by sea in an air-contidioned container and would cost around usd10,000, and you have to yield the services by the MPA.

But, buying Yamaha C-series from Japan direct is another matter. If you really think the C-series pianos have the values of the street prices in US
indeed and you do not mind insufficiently dried wood materials do not matter, buy them(seasoned for Asian countries) direct from Japan.

The "no cooling off" period laws are not specific to pianos. The infact do exist at auto dealerships are are posted in every closing room. The only exceptions to this are when items are being sold in locations that are not bona fide retail locations i.e. college sales, armory sales, trade shows, etc. Real estate is frequently conducted in a person's home and rarely in an office. The distinction is that in a retail environment the customer comes into the dealership. Outside sales frequently find a customer by caviat and with greater pressure/impulse potential.

Japanese instruments in the far east are sold direct from the factory and bear no US distributor mark up. Simple as that.