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#775842 - 01/12/04 07:55 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
The History Channel recently ran a show that wemt into many of the writings, such as the gospels of Thomas, Mary, and Nicodemus, and why they were not selected for inclusion in the New Testament while also presenting gnostic scholars who supported the additional writings.

I think the Gospel of Mary agrees with your assessment of who gets to heaven. It basically says that God is merciful to all and in the end even those in hell will go to heaven by His grace.

I didn't see the whole show, only pieces, but nothing convinced me that these additional texts were scripture.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#775843 - 01/12/04 08:24 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
bellepepper Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/03/04
Posts: 6
Loc: Georgia
I really do need to join the 21st century and get cable Tv (and a cell phone)--I miss all the good stuff. But since I have nothing to watch and no communication device, I read (mostly junk) and I don't like other people judging the veracity of what I read, especially not some cranky rabbi of 1500 years ago. I feel that these (non) scripture texts just might broaden our religious views and open up new paths. I've only read bits and pieces of some of them--and I found the Gospel of Thomas very differently presented than the other gospels without going off track on the content. Religion, especially Christianity, has, I think, gotten pretty stagnant--witness all the interesting comments on this thread compared to the boredom of a Protestant minister's Sunday morning sermon. Give me food for thought instead of the same old blah blah every Sunday about burning in Hell for no believable reason except the preacher's opinion that we will. And I'm also relieved to hear that all my friends are going to make it to the great hereafter! Hope I do.

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#775844 - 01/12/04 09:29 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
When discussing religion, particularly Catholicism, with an elderly lady (age 91 at the time) she aptly and patly responded to my religious queries by saying:

"It's not what you get out of it, it's what you put into it".

That comment has remained me I think, because it doesn't matter what you believe; we all believe different things, according to our upbringing and experience, yet it responds to the yearning and search for God by turning the tables on the quest for understanding, by saying it's not the road to God that is important, it's how you walk upon it.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#775845 - 01/12/04 10:10 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
because it doesn't matter what you believe; we all believe different things, according to our upbringing and experience, yet it responds to the yearning and search for God by turning the tables on the quest for understanding, by saying it's not the road to God that is important, it's how you walk upon it.[/b]
We differ on this point. You diminish God from being the substantive object of all creation into a fluffy bunny that we can all take turns petting.

A prayer is a hug
Wrapped in God's love. \:D

And as an ageing hippie who once never trusted anyone over 30 said to me: "Never trust anyone over ninty." I believe him.

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#775846 - 01/12/04 10:21 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
because it doesn't matter what you believe; we all believe different things, according to our upbringing and experience, yet it responds to the yearning and search for God by turning the tables on the quest for understanding, by saying it's not the road to God that is important, it's how you walk upon it.[/b]
We differ on this point. You diminish God from being the substantive object of all creation into a fluffy bunny that we can all take turns petting.

A prayer is a hug
Wrapped in God's love. \:D [/b]
a fluffy bunny?

Many strong believers, people of great faith in their[/b] God would take issue with you. God speaks in many languages, thru the customs of peoples, in the love of mothers, in the traditions of religion, in the warmth of the sunlight and the turning of the seasons.

The statement my friend Julia (a wonderfully devout Catholic) made, suggests no such thing.. rather, that how we manifest what God is to us, is our 'substantive' contribution to how God is defined in our world.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#775847 - 01/12/04 10:26 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Many strong believers, people of great faith in their God would take issue with you. God speaks in many languages, thru the customs of peoples, in the love of mothers, in the traditions of religion, in the warmth of the sunlight and the turning of the seasons. The statement my friend Julia (a wonderfully devout Catholic) made, suggests no such thing.. rather that how we manifest what God is to us is our 'substantive contribution' to how God is defined in our world.[/b]
Hop, hop, hop. Nibble, nibble, nibble.

No, God is other.

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#775848 - 01/12/04 10:29 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
other?? other what?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#775849 - 01/12/04 10:36 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
Other than trees and flowers and birds and hugs and kisses and sunlight and potato chips and everything else that makes us comphy and toasty.

You are describing panthesium not God.

We don't define God. God defines us.

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#775850 - 01/12/04 10:44 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
he defines the murderers, the rapists, the destroyers of love?

Remember, we have free will, (coupled w/ environmental factors)

We, collectively and individually define God. He is.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#775851 - 01/12/04 11:02 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
We, collectively and individually define God. He is.[/b]
No, just the opposite. He made us: he defines us. I paint a picture I name it, I define it.

As for the murderers, etc. They are defined through God by their lack of God. the problem with your way of thinking is that God could be anything you say it is: you say he's love, but we can only rely on your understanding of what love is and there is no way I can truly know what you think love is because you are another creature than I am with different feeling and different experiences. Your idea of love is subjective and relational only to you.

I'm saying that God (and love) is objective. Love applies equally to everyone. God loves everyone the murders and the Mother Thresa's.

You miss the point about what love is. You make it into a fluffy bunny.

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#775852 - 01/12/04 11:14 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
1) Why did he let that terrible earth-quake happen on Christmas day?

2) Assuming that an honest, kind and pure person that happens to be a complete atheist dies, he/she should go to Heaven, right? Wrong. God only lets in His followers. Isn't that Degrading to Him by bringing Him down to the low level of human thinking? Being [Himself], he should not care who one believes in. Denying the right to heaven to a non-believer would be personal vengeance, the same thing we frown upon.[/b]
Dear Zorro,

1. God doesn't "let" anything happen here. It's our world.

2. It's not a matter of vengeance, it's a matter of character. It's a matter of who you are, not so much in relationship to "heaven" but a interrelationship to what all of creation really entails. To deny the spiritual (i.e. atheism,) is to deny who we really are. And if we can't recognize ourselves and we can't recognize God, how can we expect God to recognize us. Heaven is not a place. It is being in the presence of God.

So, there's a misconception here. Christians don't go to heaven when they die. They are in heaven as they walk this earth and they continue to be in heaven after they die. The physical state changes--the spiritual never does. That's what's meant by eternal. [/b]
1. It might be "our world", but it is still His creation and is fundamentally flawed if it can cause such disasters. Didn't He leave us enough to deal with, poisonous snakes, insects, superbugs, famine, pestilence, plague, etc.? Obviously not, He even allows the very ground we walk on to swallow us up and destroy our buildings.

2 "And if we can't recognize ourselves and we can't recognize God, how can we expect God to recognize us." He's omnipotent, that's how! Why should I have to make myself recognisable to God? Surely he knows eactly who I am, why I think like I do, why I cannot find it in myself to believe in or have the requirement to believe in Him. Surely he knows all this?

Then again, thinking back to the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve managed to hide successfully from him in just a few bushes. He had to actually call out to them to show themselves! Somehow, I'd have expected more from an omnipotent being.
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#775853 - 01/12/04 11:15 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
how - Tomk - do you account for the non-Christian religions of the world?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#775854 - 01/12/04 11:23 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by phykell:
Then again, thinking back to the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve managed to hide successfully from him in just a few bushes. He had to actually call out to them to show themselves! Somehow, I'd have expected more from an omnipotent being. [/b]
Have you never played peekaboo or hide and seek with a child?
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#775855 - 01/12/04 11:42 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:Have you never played peekaboo or hide and seek with a child? [/b]
No I haven't but I take it you mean he knew where they were, that perhaps he was just being playful? Really?

To take it further, why was he then surprised that they were no longer naked? In fact, why is he ever surprised or angered by anything we've ever done or ever do? Surely he knows what we're going to do before we do it?
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Top
#775856 - 01/12/04 12:43 PM Re: Sincere questions on God
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Yup.

He knows and wasn't surpised. He asked, "Who told you that you were naked?" Adams no-longer-innocent answer was a lesson to him and a lesson to us. Parents and teachers often ask questions to which they know the answer to see what answer is given.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#775857 - 01/12/04 01:19 PM Re: Sincere questions on God
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
how - Tomk - do you account for the non-Christian religions of the world? [/b]
Apple, this is precisely what bothers me about so many organized religions. They are exclusive. I have a very hard time having faith in a god who provides ONE WAY to salvation, thereby excluding the majority of people on earth.

I was raised as a Unitarian and have been following this thread with interest because I understand so little about the kind of faith being discussed. I will try to make an intelligent post when I have the time, but I did want to support Apple's question.
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#775858 - 01/12/04 02:50 PM Re: Sincere questions on God
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by apple: how - Tomk - do you account for the non-Christian religions of the world?
[/b]
Excellent question. Man, though essentially carnal, has a spiritual component to his being. He (and she) yearns for God and looks to find him hither and yon. It's a natural component of what we are made of and it is not a bad thing. Unfortunately it is a futile search. God has to reach down to us and he did, so I believe, in one extraordinary instance.

Diverse religions are an expression of man's search for God. Each religion is man reaching up his hand to heaven for salvation and in one case a hand from heaven reaches down and pulls man up.

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#775859 - 01/13/04 06:00 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT: Yup. He knows and wasn't surpised. He asked, "Who told you that you were naked?" Adams no-longer-innocent answer was a lesson to him and a lesson to us. Parents and teachers often ask questions to which they know the answer to see what answer is given. [/b]
Why would an omnipotent being ever need to ask a question? He knew what was in Adam's heart when he asked the question. As I said, why would an omnipotent being even express a reaction to anything He created? It's not as though anything we could do could surprise him is it? Anyway, the ultimate responsibility isn't our own. He created us, flaws and all. We were engineered with our flaws built-in. From the moment we were created, Adam and Eve were doomed to be thrown out of the Garden of Eden. It was a test they were never going to pass, and arguably worse, that they were led to believe was their fault!

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:Man, though essentially carnal, has a spiritual component to his being. He (and she) yearns for God and looks to find him hither and yon. It's a natural component of what we are made of and it is not a bad thing. Unfortunately it is a futile search.[/b]
Can't that also be explained by man simply wishing to know where he came from and where he's going? Is this all that there is, etc.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:God has to reach down to us and he did, so I believe, in one extraordinary instance. [/b]
Doesn't that contradict what was said earlier, about how we have to recognise ourselves and recognise God, otherwise he might not recognise us?

 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:Diverse religions are an expression of man's search for God. Each religion is man reaching up his hand to heaven for salvation and in one case a hand from heaven reaches down and pulls man up. [/b]
But which one is right though? Any of them?
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Top
#775860 - 01/13/04 06:36 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
F# Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/04
Posts: 42
If Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of Good and Evil from eating the apple, how were they supposed to know it was wrong to listen to the snake before they ate it?

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#775861 - 01/13/04 06:41 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by phykell:
[QUOTE]Why would an omnipotent being ever need to ask a question? He knew what was in Adam's heart when he asked the question. As I said, why would an omnipotent being even express a reaction to anything He created? It's not as though anything we could do could surprise him is it? Anyway, the ultimate responsibility isn't our own. He created us, flaws and all. We were engineered with our flaws built-in. From the moment we were created, Adam and Eve were doomed to be thrown out of the Garden of Eden. It was a test they were never going to pass, and arguably worse, that they were led to believe was their fault!
[/b]
God knew what would happen if Eve, then Adam, chose[/b] to eat from the forbidden tree. He also knew what would happen if they obeyed Him. His omniscience covers the decision tree but we chose which branches we follow. That's why we are humans with free will rather than puppets of a grand Geppeto.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#775862 - 01/13/04 07:11 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by phykell:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
1) Why did he let that terrible earth-quake happen on Christmas day?

2) Assuming that an honest, kind and pure person that happens to be a complete atheist dies, he/she should go to Heaven, right? Wrong. God only lets in His followers. Isn't that Degrading to Him by bringing Him down to the low level of human thinking? Being [Himself], he should not care who one believes in. Denying the right to heaven to a non-believer would be personal vengeance, the same thing we frown upon.[/b]
Dear Zorro,

1. God doesn't "let" anything happen here. It's our world.

2. It's not a matter of vengeance, it's a matter of character. It's a matter of who you are, not so much in relationship to "heaven" but a interrelationship to what all of creation really entails. To deny the spiritual (i.e. atheism,) is to deny who we really are. And if we can't recognize ourselves and we can't recognize God, how can we expect God to recognize us. Heaven is not a place. It is being in the presence of God.

So, there's a misconception here. Christians don't go to heaven when they die. They are in heaven as they walk this earth and they continue to be in heaven after they die. The physical state changes--the spiritual never does. That's what's meant by eternal. [/b]
1. It might be "our world", but it is still His creation and is fundamentally flawed if it can cause such disasters. Didn't He leave us enough to deal with, poisonous snakes, insects, superbugs, famine, pestilence, plague, etc.? Obviously not, He even allows the very ground we walk on to swallow us up and destroy our buildings.

2 "And if we can't recognize ourselves and we can't recognize God, how can we expect God to recognize us." He's omnipotent, that's how! Why should I have to make myself recognisable to God? Surely he knows eactly who I am, why I think like I do, why I cannot find it in myself to believe in or have the requirement to believe in Him. Surely he knows all this?

Then again, thinking back to the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve managed to hide successfully from him in just a few bushes. He had to actually call out to them to show themselves! Somehow, I'd have expected more from an omnipotent being. [/b]
I confess, I haven't read through every post on this thread due to lack of time but this one caught my eye.
Phykell, you are taking a much too literal approach to various phrases in the Bible. Surely if you do this you won't believe much of what the Bible says.
To those who don't believe in God, do you really feel that we developed from chance occurrences alone with no help from a Creator? Do you really believe that we developed from simple evolution?
Sure, evolution does occur but I would argue that with our supreme complexity and intelligence, that simple forces of nature alone could never produce such a being.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

Top
#775863 - 01/13/04 09:38 PM Re: Sincere questions on God
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT: God knew what would happen if Eve, then Adam, chose[/b] to eat from the forbidden tree. He also knew what would happen if they obeyed Him. His omniscience covers the decision tree but we chose which branches we follow. That's why we are humans with free will rather than puppets of a grand Geppeto. [/b]
God also knew that they'd fail though, in fact omnipotence meant that he knew they'd fail the test when he created them. In fact, the error was his, in his creation, that they would fail the test. No, he is ultimately responsible for all our sins simply because he made us according to the bible. When I write a computer program, I have to take responsibility for the errors. I can't simply give it artificial intelligence and then blame the program itself when it fails especially not if I also know where exactly the program will fail...

 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
Phykell, you are taking a much too literal approach to various phrases in the Bible. Surely if you do this you won't believe much of what the Bible says. [/b]
So how should I approach it? How can I be sure my interpretation is even nearly accurate? Are you saying that not only did we lose Eden, gain poisonous insects, deadly bacteria, etc. but also that the handbook we were given isn't even written in a straight-forward manner? I know we're expected to have faith, but surely it's hardly surprising if we find it very difficult to believe in an omnipotent being allowing the truly terrible things that do go on, to happen. I'm only one person and I know of individuals who have suffered terribly, and I know that those people do not deserve their suffering. I cannot reconcile this with any belief in an merciful God. I just can't and I don't blame me or so many others either.

 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:To those who don't believe in God, do you really feel that we developed from chance occurrences alone with no help from a Creator? Do you really believe that we developed from simple evolution?
Sure, evolution does occur but I would argue that with our supreme complexity and intelligence, that simple forces of nature alone could never produce such a being. [/b]
Supreme complexity and intelligence? That's a joke. Other than our brain, we're hardly suited to our environment are we? We think of ourselves as the most successful species on the planet, yet we've only been here a fraction of the time that (say) crocodiles have, and they haven't had to change much in the last million years or so have they? It's typical human arrogance to say that such creatures have reached an evolutionary dead-end and that we are somehow superior. Strange that we're destroying our own environment. I can think of so many creatures that actually contribute to the eco-system, that are at one with nature and live quite happily, in fact the only creature I can think of that stands out like a sore thumb, a fly in the ointment as it were, is mankind. Perhaps that's the real proof you're looking for, that we're such a poor factor in this planet's eco-system, that we must be fundamentally difference from all other animals, even all the physical proof says otherwise.

Did life just invent itself though? I don't know, but it depends on how you define life, for example, what about new star systems being created in stellar nurseries? Who's to say those star systems won't go on to support life as something like we know it? Who's to say that the creation of life isn't actually a common-place occurrence? Who's really to say that we are so complex that we must've been created? How do you define complex anyway? Where do you get your metrics from?

You talk of supreme complexity, yet you as a medical professional probably know of many flaws in the design of human beings, such as the glaring fact that human children are virtually helpless when they're born because the human brain is now so big, it has to continue to develop after the birth because the size of the cranium is now at the limit that the pelvic girdle can allow through it. That's not a great original design is it but you know what it sounds like to me? It sounds like we really did evolve from a more primitive creature and that evolution has had to make certian compromises to allow our brains to become as large and complex as they have. It certainly doesn't sound like the sort of compromise an omnipotent being would have to make, does it?
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Top
#775864 - 01/14/04 04:51 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by phykell:
[QUOTE]Supreme complexity and intelligence? That's a joke. Other than our brain, we're hardly suited to our environment are we? [/b]
You've GOT to be kidding. "Other than our brain"
What other organ deals with intelligence? We are so far beyond any other species that to make comparisons is the real joke. So the crocs have outdone the humans? I'll let you have the croc brain and I'll keep my measly human one.
Have you ever been in a foxhole, Phykell? I still am curious as to what exactly a person who doesn't believe in God thinks about as the mortars explode all around him. I asked this question earlier and never got an answer.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

Top
#775865 - 01/14/04 06:36 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
"Other than our brain" What other organ deals with intelligence? [/b]
Our brain isn't the only thinking organ. As a physician surely you know this.

Oh, wait, are we talking about men or women?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#775866 - 01/14/04 07:41 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by phykell:
God also knew that they'd fail though, in fact omnipotence meant that he knew they'd fail the test when he created them. In fact, the error was his, in his creation, that they would fail the test. No, he is ultimately responsible for all our sins simply because he made us according to the bible. When I write a computer program, I have to take responsibility for the errors. I can't simply give it artificial intelligence and then blame the program itself when it fails especially not if I also know where exactly the program will fail...
[/b]
I guess that's our point of disagreement: you see us as predestined robots and I don't. God created us with the potential to succeed or fail, not merely to fail. Yes, He knows what will happen if we choose either path but He gave us the ability to choose which path we[/b] want to take. We are not a program or a puppet. We have free will. Faith is a choice for us; grace for Him.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

Top
#775867 - 01/14/04 07:54 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by DT: Faith is a choice for us; grace for Him.
[/b]
Excellent way of putting it.

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#775868 - 01/14/04 10:44 AM Re: Sincere questions on God
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
"Other than our brain" What other organ deals with intelligence? [/b]
Our brain isn't the only thinking organ. As a physician surely you know this.

Oh, wait, are we talking about men or women? [/b]
Woops, you're correct. The other organ has a fairly one-track mind, however. \:D
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#775869 - 01/14/04 12:05 PM Re: Sincere questions on God
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
]We differ on this point. You diminish God from being the substantive object of all creation into a fluffy bunny that we can all take turns petting. [/b]
Hey, don't you mess with my Fluffy Bunny! You think it is a diminishment.

You obviously don't know the first thing about bunnies.

Read your Bible.

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#775870 - 01/14/04 12:11 PM Re: Sincere questions on God
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
You've GOT to be kidding. "Other than our brain" What other organ deals with intelligence?[/b]
I don't understand your question.

 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
We are so far beyond any other species that to make comparisons is the real joke. So the crocs have outdone the humans? I'll let you have the croc brain and I'll keep my measly human one.[/b]
That's my point though, that if you only consider intelligence, then arguably we are the most successful species and are "so far beyond any other species" as you rightly say. However, we are not exactly suited to our environment are we? We couldn't survive without clothes for example. Our eyesight is relatively poor compared to many other animals. No, it's only our intelligence which has led to our success and domination of the planet yet we're also the only species which has seriously threatened the existence of the entire eco-system.

I guess it all depends on what your idea of success is really and there's loads of opinions on how it can be defined, probably as many as for how intelligence itself can be defined. For example, a dolphin is a superior creature in many ways including the fact that it is ideally suited (adapted) to its environment. Ourselves, we find we have to adapt our environments to suit us, and that is potentially disastrous for the planet as a whole.

 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
Have you ever been in a foxhole, Phykell? I still am curious as to what exactly a person who doesn't believe in God thinks about as the mortars explode all around him. I asked this question earlier and never got an answer. [/b]
I've been in some sticky situations like most people, though I've never resorted (yet) to asking for God to intervene. However, if I did, it would not mean that I believe in God, it would simply be an act of desperation.

Incidentally, I must just say at this point, that it's not my intention to try and convince anyone here that God doesn't exist. All I can do is explain why I personally do not believe. Like most people, I would say I'd like to believe in a just and merciful God, but from what I've seen in my relatively short lifespan, there just isn't one.

TBH, I don't worry about God or believing in any religion thought that might change as I get older, or if I become seriously ill but if I live my life as a good person, I can say that I do so without expecting some reward in the after-life and I think in many ways, that's a more noble attitude than some religious people who act virtuously in the belief God is watching them. I wonder how many religious people are capable of sincerely selfless acts and I wonder how many can even be sure they have done any. As a non-believer I am capable of such acts and I can be sure that I've done some. That'll be my excuse on Judgement day ;\)
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

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#775871 - 01/14/04 12:16 PM Re: Sincere questions on God
phykell Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/22/02
Posts: 697
Loc: UK
 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
I asked this question earlier and never got an answer. [/b]
Talking of which, I note that you didn't address my point about human evolution and the pelvic girdle...
_________________________
If you vote me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

========

Evil cannot be conquered in the world. It can only be resisted within oneself.

Top
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