Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Topic Options
#777768 - 06/25/02 09:22 PM The Terrorists Continue To Win
Anonymous
Unregistered


Who would have ever thought that we would have to rely on Librarians to protect our freedoms from our own President and his Attorney General?

Obviously, the terrorists have won a lot when our own government destroys our freedoms far more than any terrorist could never touch.

From the Associated Press:

FBI Monitors Reading

By CHRISTOPHER NEWTON
.c The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) - Across the nation, FBI investigators are quietly visiting libraries and checking the reading records of people they suspect of being in league with terrorists, library officials say.

The FBI effort, authorized by the anti-terrorism law enacted after the Sept. 11 attacks, is the first broad government check of library records since the 1970s, when prosecutors reined in the practice for fear of abuses.

A Justice Department official in the civil rights division and FBI officials declined to comment Monday, except to note that such searches are now legal under the Patriot Act that President Bush signed last October.

Libraries across the nation were reluctant to discuss their dealings with the FBI. The same law that makes the searches legal also makes it a criminal offense for librarians to reveal the details or extent of the contact.

But the University of Illinois conducted a survey of 1,020 public libraries in January and February and found that 85 libraries had been asked by federal or local law enforcement officers for information about patrons related to Sept. 11, said Ed Lakner, assistant director of research at the school's Library Research Center.

The libraries that reported FBI contacts were nearly all in large urban areas.

Judith Krug, the American Library Association's director for intellectual freedom, tells worried librarians who call that they should keep only the records they need and should discard records that would reveal which patron checked out a book and for how long.

She is frustrated by the hate mail she says she receives when she speaks out against the Patriot Act.

``People are scared and they think that by giving up their rights, especially their right to privacy, they will be safe,'' Krug said. ``But it wasn't the right to privacy that let terrorists into our nation. It had nothing to do with libraries or library records.''

Kari Hanson, director of the Bridgeview Public Library in suburban Chicago, said an FBI agent came seeking information about a person, but her library had no record of the person. Federal prosecutors allege Global Relief Foundation, an Islamic charity based in the Chicago suburb, has ties to Osama bin Laden's terror network

``Patron information is sacrosanct here,'' Hanson said. ``It's nobody's business what you read.''

In Florida, Broward County library director Sam Morrison said the FBI had recently contacted his office. He declined to elaborate on the request or how many branch libraries were involved.

``We've heard from them and that's all I can tell you,'' Morrison said. He said the FBI specifically instructed him not to reveal any information about the request.

The library system has been contacted before. A week after the Sept. 11 attacks, the FBI subpoenaed Morrison to provide information on the possible use of computer terminals by some of the suspected hijackers in the Hollywood, Fla., area.

In October, investigators revisited the county's main library in Fort Lauderdale and checked a regional library in Coral Springs.

At least 15 of the 19 hijackers had Florida connections.

The process by which the FBI gains access to library records is quick and mostly secret under the Patriot Act.

First, the FBI must obtain a search warrant from a court that meets in secret to hear the agency's case. The FBI must show it has reason to suspect that a person is involved with a terrorist or a terrorist plot - far less difficult than meeting the tougher legal standards of probable cause, required for traditional search warrants.

With the warrant, FBI investigators can visit a library and gain immediate access to the records.

Bookstores also can have their records searched by the FBI. Two major booksellers organizations knew of no cases in which stores had been contacted by the FBI. Booksellers Amazon, Barnes & Noble and B. Dalton declined to comment.

``What's so frustrating is that we're supposed to be watchdogs over the government's use of power,'' said Chris Finan, director of the American Booksellers for Free Expression. ``But there is so much secrecy that we can't even tell what the government is doing or how much its doing it.''

Some libraries said they will still resist government efforts to obtain records.

Pat McCandless, assistant director for public services for Ohio State University's libraries, said, ``State law and professional ethics say we do not convey patron information and that is still our stance.

``To the best of our ability, we would try to support patron confidentiality,'' she said.


06/25/02 01:40 EDT

Copyright 2002 The Associated Press.

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#777769 - 06/25/02 10:04 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
Hello George -

Good to see you back!
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

Top
#777770 - 06/25/02 10:57 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Joy Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 550
Loc: Encinitas, CA
Librarians are an underappreciated group. I am always made aware of this whenever they publicize someone else's banned books list -- often the most significant, controversial and rewarding books ever published -- encouraging readers to seek these titles out. One of our greatest liberties.

The American Library Association is a great organization.

Joy

Top
#777771 - 06/26/02 12:35 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Yes, George, where HAVE you been? Stuck at the airport again? \:\) Jodi

Top
#777772 - 06/26/02 01:02 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

I don't want to start a war here BUT you are really starting to **** me off.

What is it going to take for you to realize that the terrorist want to kill each and every one of us. A nuclear attack? Biological? Chemical? What exactly is going to convince you that the government really is only interested in obtaining information on terrorists?

I don't give a **** if the government is snooping into what I'm reading, looking at on the internet, or doing in my spare time. I have nothing to hide.

And I don't appreciate some idiotic librarian trying to 'protect my civil rights' as there may be no one alive to protect the civil rights of.

It's a new world George. Wake up before it's too late.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

Top
#777773 - 06/26/02 08:05 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
You must remember George- if we don't stop the Islamic terrorists, they will achieve their goal. That goal is to force Islam on the whole world. And they need to destroy America to do it. Once they achieve their goal, there will be no libraries for you to read a book in in the first place. I don't think you, me, or any other honest citizen needs to spend a lot of time worrying about someone checking to see what we've read. But if for some reason the government feels they ought to look at my reading selections, let them. At least I'll be able to return the next day and read something else. If we don't put a muzzle on people who think the way you do pretty soon, we might as well just go ahead and close down all the libraries and burn all the books. It'll save our new rulers some time. Then they can go on with their more important work of lining up and shooting people like me who are refusing to bow to their religion and their rule.

It scares me that you get to vote, George. ;\)
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#777774 - 06/26/02 10:39 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Sam_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 239
Loc: NYC
Hi George,

I'm glad you're back. Missed your posts.
Now, am I glad I always buy my books...

Top
#777775 - 06/26/02 11:55 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
A partial solution to this problem is to round up any illegal aliens whose green cards have expired, or who have registered for college in America, yet never attended. Deport them ASAP. And let them take their library cards with them! :p
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#777776 - 06/26/02 03:14 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
Some one can help me with the exact quote, but if you are willing to trade your freedom for security, you will find yourself with neither.

I am not willing to make that trade.

Keep hammering 'em, George. And hope the country wakes up before it is too late.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

Top
#777777 - 06/26/02 03:25 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
A partial solution to this problem is to round up any illegal aliens whose green cards have expired, or who have registered for college in America, yet never attended. Deport them ASAP. And let them take their library cards with them! :p [/b]
Amen. It's obvious on the face of it, yet it does not appear that there is any big push to do this. I can not figure out why.

Certainly deporting illegal aliens would give us a big bang for the tax buck as far as reducing the number of potential terrorists out there; a far bigger bang than rooting around in libraries. Suspending student visas in general or making them harder to get sounds like a good idea as well.

Don't detain 'em, don't interrogate 'em, don't screw around. They are breaking the law, they are not supposed to be here, just send 'em home.

Nothing wrong with that.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

Top
#777778 - 06/26/02 03:29 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
But if for some reason the government feels they ought to look at my reading selections, let them. At least I'll be able to return the next day and read something else. [/b]
I am not so sure of that.

Whether or not you are free to return the next day to read something else or not, may have a lot to do with what you decided to read the day before. There may well come a day when your deciding to bone up on Islamic theology will land you in a cell next to that Padilla guy.

Don't bother calling your lawyer when that happens. Civilities like Habeus Corpus have been suspended in the name of the war on terrorism.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

Top
#777779 - 06/26/02 03:56 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Why does the U.S. not get serious with illegal immigrants? One word:

Mexifornia.

If we start to deport illegal Arab-aliens, we must deport illegal Mexicans. And this the politicians won't do. Why?

Economics. They think that Mexico is furnishing cheap labor to fuel the economy. But due to recent findings, these illegal aliens may consume as much money in service as they produce in the economy.

Votes. When we start to deport Uncle Jose', the Mexican-American community will howl like mad banshees. And vote accordingly. Politicians are treating this issue like a new third rail of American politics - which it is.

Bottom line: Common sense is not very common. At least not in Washington,D.C. \:\)
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#777780 - 06/26/02 04:26 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
mrenaud Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/29/02
Posts: 1310
Loc: Switzerland
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
Whether or not you are free to return the next day to read something else or not, may have a lot to do with what you decided to read the day before. There may well come a day when your deciding to bone up on Islamic theology will land you in a cell next to that Padilla guy.

Don't bother calling your lawyer when that happens. Civilities like Habeus Corpus have been suspended in the name of the war on terrorism.[/b]
What's wrong with Islamic theology?
_________________________
I have an ice cream. I cannot mail it, for it will melt.

Top
#777781 - 06/26/02 07:31 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by mrenaud:
[What's wrong with Islamic theology?[/b]
Not a thing wrong with Islamic theology. It is a lot different from the terrorist take on it, but as a theology it is a beautiful thing. Read up on it - in many ways it is similar to Christianity.

My point is that you could never learn this if seekers of knowledge are arrested based on the nature of the knowledge they seek.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

Top
#777782 - 06/28/02 09:32 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
B. Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 69

Top
#777783 - 06/28/02 09:43 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
B. Alden,

Bill Maher came under attack when he suggested that the 9/11 hijackers had courage for flying airplanes into buildings and our military does not when it stands off and fires cruise missiles. A practice favored by the previous administration. I have never been a big fan or detractor of Bill Maher and, frankly, never watched his program much but I could not see what all the ruckus was about and thought there was more than a grain of truth in what he said. If that is why he was cancelled it was not fair. It would seem that he was on the air because he was given to making outrageous comments just like this one. Great for ratings. Just wanted to set the record straight.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#777784 - 06/28/02 11:00 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by B. Alden:
Larry, what you propose here, and what I've seen elsewhere on some of the other political threads, makes me wonder -- Are you for unity, or for despotism a la Bush?
Given that neither of your two options are the reality of the situation, I'll have to wait until you understand the situation from a deeper level of thought before I am able to answer that.

 Quote:

But yet, in the other thread you say that the Constitution was written to "make sure power could never concentrate in the hands of a small group, or in one, such as a King." Isn't muzzling and intellectual suppression a blatant attempt to concentrate power into one group of identical thinkers?
No. First, no one is engaging in "intellectual suppression". That is merely your misguided take on it. Second, muzzling people who's stated goal is to destroy our country is an act of stopping them from achieving their goal, which if realized would in fact concentrate power into one small group of identical thinkers. Typical of Liberal thought processes, you are so busy thinking about today that you don't see tomorrow.

 Quote:

Why do you think that varied opinions will weaken the country?
Again, this is asked in a way that spins the subject, the spin coming from your own misguided take on things. I never said I thought varied opinions would weaken the country. I am *for* varied opinions. That's why I'm so vocal. But it must come from people capable of rational thought. Allowing room for Islamic terrorists to have the same freedoms we have so that they are free to proceed with their plans by using our freedoms against us is not a case of allowing "varied opinions". It's a case of standing by the henhouse door watching the fox steal all the chickens. I advocate locking the hen house door until the fox is gone, you advocate free access to the hen house for everyone including the fox.

 Quote:

You have to realize that the points-of-view are entirely flip-flopped - I know a fellow who was in Palestine about a month ago, where the general television reported things like, "The U. S. and their terrorist leader, George Bush......."
Well, Duh!! I would imagine a trip to North Korea during the Korean war would have seen the same thing, or a trip to Germany during WWII, etc. What did your friend expect to hear, that they loved us? Just because they say it doesn't change the facts.

 Quote:

There are probably thousands of old Arab fellows (whose names translate to Larry :p :p ) who are saying, "If we don't stop the American terrorists, they will achieve their goal. That goal is to force Materialism on the whole world. And they need to destroy Islam to do it. Once they achieve their goal, there will be no Korans for you to read, and the younger generations will become morally bankrupt. When I was a boy, we memorized Omar Khayyam - now, all the young people do is listen to Metallica." See my point? \:\)
Yes. I also see that you don't even have a basic grasp of the situation. First, it isn't just America who is fighting terrorists. We are leading the fight, but most every country in the free world sees and understands the danger, and are involved. Second, it isn't America who has stated their goal is to destroy Islam. It is the Islamic terrorists who have stated their goal is to destroy America. The fact that the average citizen in these countries are so out of touch with the rest of the world and hold the views they hold doesn't change the facts. And the facts are that not only has America not expressed or acted on any goal to destroy them (prior to their setting out to do it to us) we have in fact gone to their defense several times in the past. American men have died in past events where we went to their rescue to liberate them, not destroy them. Surely you are capable of deeper thought than you are showing here. Hitler thought we were the devil too. That didn't change the reality of what was happening. So if Palestinians think we are terrorists, so be it. They do so out of ignorance, and they do so contrary to the facts. There are probably as many copies of the Koran in the US as there are in Afghanistan. Prior to our war on Islamic terrorists, did you hear of any case where a campaign existed to round them up and take them away from anyone? Of course not.


 Quote:

As I see it, the problems arise when bodies of people in charge try to regress according to some idyllic notion of the past (i.e., like Iran's regression with Khomeini, or like Bush's abstinence, or mother-father-marriage-only agenda).
I just love it when a liberal tries to equate the actions of terrorists who have stated a goal of destroying civilization and who have killed thousands of people all while hiding behind women and little children with a conservative American leader who is trying to save you from those terrorists just because they don't like a certain policy.

 Quote:

What would be far more beneficial is to find people who are able to grasp current sociological variations and mould those into something that hopefully works for the improvement and benefit of everyone in a ~new~ way ----- innovation,[/b] not regression.
I see. Maybe if we got Osama to come to a few counseling sessions..... we could get him in touch with his inner child and help him see that it is really our fault that he is the way he is, then give him Australia...... yeah...that'll work.

 Quote:

That's another reason why I don't like Bush's camp I'm convinced that they don't have the brain juice to understand, let alone act upon, that concept. How could they, when they don't even stand for dissenting opinion and intelligent discourse?
Again, with your views as shallow as they are, and as misguided as they are, no one could possibly expect you to understand. It will first require you to grow intellectually yourself. That's going to take some time. In the meantime, those who understand what's happening must carry on. If we wait until you figure it out, we'll all be living under Osama's rule, the libraries will be gone, the books burned, women will be being beaten for stepping outside their homes or showing their faces, people will be being killed for listening to music, etc. Of course, it will be done by those people you seem to think are capable of entering into an open intellectual discussion to resolve our differences......

Sheesh........
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

Top
#777785 - 06/28/02 11:15 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Samejame Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 808
Loc: NL, Canada
Larry,

You said
 Quote:
You must remember George- if we don't stop the Islamic terrorists, they will achieve their goal. That goal is to force Islam on the whole world
I don't think it is wise or fair to lump "Islamic" terrorists in with those who follow the faith. You make it sound almost as if it is Islam which is at fault here. Where in the doctrines of the faith is it written or suggested "let's take over the world"?

Keep in mind that the Bin Ladens of the world could not give a flying **** about Islam or any other religion. There religion is power and havoc...PERIOD. Many Islamic fundamentalist regimes can be lumped into the same group. When you look at the torturous and repressive nature of these regimes, and look into the fundemental principles of Islam, they are like chaulk and cheese.

9/11 was never about fundamentals of religion. It was about nut cases on a power trip.

And with regard to the subject at hand re being peeked upon over your shoulder at the library, as long as you are not up to no good, what's really the issue? Perhaps if the CIA et al were doing their job in recent years and looking over the shoulders of... say things like flying school students who were not interested in learning how to lift off or land a plane ... some recent horrors may have been avoided.

And if government's "big brothering" finds out that Mr. Whoever has taken a keen interest in the latest edition of "how to kill everyone in the USA in ten easy steps", I don't have a big problem with them finding out, and asking a few pointed questions.

Jamie
_________________________
"A cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing" Oscar Wilde.

Top
#777786 - 06/28/02 04:45 PM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Actually, citizens with the stated goal of destroying the country should be charged with treason and executed, if their actions warrant it.

The first amendment guarantees free speech, but it was never thought to be without some limits.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#777787 - 07/02/02 11:46 AM Re: The Terrorists Continue To Win
B. Alden Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/19/02
Posts: 69

Top

What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
132 registered (aDino, Abby Pianoman, ajames, anamnesis, Alex1, 39 invisible), 1722 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75584 Members
42 Forums
156279 Topics
2295154 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Yamaha DGX650 - looking for an alternative! Need advice
by Karinioza
4 minutes 46 seconds ago
Piano oriented film soundtracks/scores.
by aDino
34 minutes 2 seconds ago
Help with dynamics
by noobpianist90
Today at 03:53 AM
Using Kawai MP6 faders/knobs with virtual instruments?
by chicolom
Today at 02:35 AM
Coming up with new compositional methods.
by gsmonks
Today at 01:58 AM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission