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#786890 - 01/08/05 08:14 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Actually, Quirt, I wasn't being sarcastic, really. That there was more like a tap dance because you caught me forgetting the facts, actually. ;\)

But yes, I do think it is a reasonable inference that the woman didn't leave the guns lying in plain view. (I would think that would be a significant fact which would have been publicized to demonstrate her negligence). My own instinct is to cover up anything of value I have to leave in my minivan. Also, the article says she "investigated" the rattling, which suggests something more than turning around in her seat. I think the boy concealed them, and she concealed them too.

What I can't figure out is whether she recognized these weapons. I guess she must have, which would explain why she wasn't especially alarmed. Which means they perhaps belonged to her husband, who is equally culpable for not securing them.

Regarding how the kid got a key . . . Quirt, I don't know how old your twins are, but my oldest is 13. If she wanted to get a key to my car without my knowledge, she could do it. No problem. She could lift it off dh's key ring or take the spare one, and he wouldn't be the wiser. Better yet, she could swipe the key, walk it down to the hardware store and have her very own key made for $2. Teenagers are very capable and very sneaky when they want to be.

Regarding whether the mom should have known the boy was at the end of his rope, I don't fault her for this, either. When my kids are unhappy or having trouble in school, it doesn't occur to them that they might be ready to go on a murder spree. He was probably being your usual sullen pre-teen, and she might have been dealing with it in her own way by just trying to continue having a relationship with him, which doesn't mean his parents are neglectful or out of touch.

I'm saying that the woman could have handled it better. Given that in this thread with the full benefit of hindsight there isn't a consensus of opinion about the best course of action, I can understand how mom blew it.
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#786891 - 01/08/05 08:16 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:
"She discovered two rifles, a shotgun and ammunition..."[/b]

Not "just a deer rifle."

OK, so we can perhaps conclude that this is the sort of family where three guns and ammunition are routinely just popping up in the back of the van...? "Oh geez, there are our guns again. We really must get better about putting them away..."

This was sheer irresponsibility on the part of the parent(s), IMO. Two problems: 1) their kid is being routinely bullied enough to consider taking loaded guns into school and they don't know it or have chosen to ignore it; 2) the presence of 3 guns and ammunition in their van is, apparently, no big deal. [/b]
I own 26 weapons. From deer rifle to shotguns, and at one time, a submachine gun.

Looking behind the seat of my truck, would probably scare you into next week!
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#786892 - 01/08/05 10:19 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
JoeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 671
Loc: Northern California
 Quote:
His parents have said that he lashed out against his school because he was being tormented relentlessly by bullies. Friends and neighbors have said that he was picked on for his weight and style of clothing.
and
 Quote:
IMO. Two problems: 1) their kid is being routinely bullied enough to consider taking loaded guns into school and they don't know it or have chosen to ignore it;
It is interesting that no one is really laying some blame on the school. If the bullying was actually occuring and teachers and administrators were ingnoring it, they should get a large part of the blame. The kid may have acted out in an innappropriate way, but since no one was actually injured, his method turned out to be much better than the much more common method kids use, suicide. Did his parents know about the bullying? Maybe the school employees were the only cognizant adults. Maybe a civil case by the parents against the school is appropriate.

This whole thing sounds like a fatheaded judge posing for the crowd.
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#786893 - 01/08/05 10:30 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Not really OT:

Is it legal to conceal weapons in cars? I'm not a gun owner so I don't really have a clue, but I thought you had to get a "concealed weapons" permit, else the weapon had to be in plain sight... the proverbial gunrack in the pickup scenario.

What's the legal side of concealing weapons in cars?

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#786894 - 01/08/05 10:36 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3288
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Looking behind the seat of my truck, would probably scare you into next week! [/b]
Do you clean out your truck every time you take your kid to school or attend a school function?

Doubt it, and I see no reason why you should be required to.
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#786895 - 01/08/05 01:16 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Looking behind the seat of my truck, would probably scare you into next week! [/b]
Do you clean out your truck every time you take your kid to school or attend a school function?

Doubt it, and I see no reason why you should be required to. [/b]
Absolutely. ;\) I clean it out every time. ;\) Without fail. ;\)
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#786896 - 01/08/05 01:25 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:
Not really OT:

Is it legal to conceal weapons in cars? I'm not a gun owner so I don't really have a clue, but I thought you had to get a "concealed weapons" permit, else the weapon had to be in plain sight... the proverbial gunrack in the pickup scenario.

What's the legal side of concealing weapons in cars? [/b]
Depends on the state, as state laws vary. And that is superceded by municipal ordinances. If you wish, you can obtain a copy of the firearms laws of all states from the BATF.

In my state, a vehicle is considered an extension of your domicile, and all laws apply thereof. Not to mention the fact that in an unincorporated area, it is not illegal to strap a hogleg on in plain site, or carry a shotgun into a country store.

Folks may look at you a mite strange, though. Usually as a common courtesy, since guns do disturb some folks, you'll put them out of sight. Now, that does sometimes bridge into CCW, but I've never heard of a rural parish DA bringing such charges, unless he wants to tack them onto more, serious offenses.
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#786897 - 01/08/05 01:34 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
I haven't read a WORD of this thread--but trust me on this--if you have to ask the question, the answer is JAIL. There's bad guys and good guys in this world and and is a vast difference between them. People like the ACLU want to blur those differences, "but the fine print in the 39th amendment says:" "his mother never really loved him," all crap. Just lawyers hurting people to make money.

Now probation, hmmmm, isn't that where all the ax murders and child molesters get to do their thing for the second time on the state's dime? Let me call my lawyer....

Next post.

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#786898 - 01/08/05 01:42 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Poor woman. Poor family. They all need help simply to get through this and figure out what went wrong. I'm sure there's all kinds of guilt going around.
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#786899 - 01/08/05 02:05 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
Two quick takes on this:

I am not at all surprised by Jolly's judgement because it's influenced by his desire to minimize any encroachment on his right to own and secure his weapons. Don't object Jolly. You're as human as the rest of us and all our judgements are influenced, at least subconsciously, by our personal agenda. To claim otherwise is silly.

Cindy, I make no judgement on this borderline case. But, as far as I'm concerned, your position has weakened on any future stance you might take about society being responsible for an individual's crime against that society. If you choose to object, please see my closing comments to Jolly.

Well, that's my fun for the day here on PW. Have a good weekend everybody. ;\)
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#786900 - 01/08/05 02:06 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Enjoy, MM. Stay warm!
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http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#786901 - 01/08/05 02:47 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Kreisler Offline


Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13706
Loc: Iowa City, IA
I think the fact that this happens shows that the family's problems go far beyond this incident.

 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
Poor woman. Poor family. They all need help simply to get through this and figure out what went wrong. I'm sure there's all kinds of guilt going around. [/b]
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#786902 - 01/08/05 02:53 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
I am not at all surprised by Jolly's judgement because it's influenced by his desire to minimize any encroachment on his right to own and secure his weapons. Don't object Jolly. You're as human as the rest of us and all our judgements are influenced, at least subconsciously, by our personal agenda. To claim otherwise is silly.
Sorry, I object. :p

I base my primary objections to this woman's incarceration on a lot of other grounds, than just securing weapons.

I base some of my objections on:

1. When you are old enough to pick up a gun and threaten someone, you are old enough to be treated as an adult. This child is being treated as such.

I've seen criminals get less time for armed robbery, than what this kid is getting (9 years).

2. Incarceration of the mother serves no useful purpose, that I can ascertain. Locking somebody up for 90 days is for vagrants, drunks, and petty thievess. She is none of these.

The primary purpose of the judicial system is justice. Sometimes that involves jail time. Sometimes it does not. Sometimes it involves execution. Sometimes it does not. However, the punishment should fit the crime.

In this case, according to the DA, it does not.

3. There are a lot of folks, including some of the guys who work for me, who would put up a ferocious argument in favor of non-human status on my part.
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#786903 - 01/08/05 03:08 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kreisler:
I think the fact that this happens shows that the family's problems go far beyond this incident.

 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
Poor woman. Poor family. They all need help simply to get through this and figure out what went wrong. I'm sure there's all kinds of guilt going around. [/b]
[/b]
It begs the question "what else is going?" There are issues definitely at work. I sure hope they get help.
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http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#786904 - 01/08/05 03:11 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
Holy moly, Batman.

Cindy agreeing with Jolly.

Me agreeing with Tom K.

Is this the first sign of the apocalypse?
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#786905 - 01/08/05 07:48 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Oh, MM. Really now.

I don't think the woman should go to jail, so now I am estopped for all time from opining "about society being responsible for an individual's crime against that society."

What does that even mean, anyway?
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#786906 - 01/08/05 07:54 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Oooh, the plot thickens . . .

Here's another news report (before the trial). I've snipped out the details we already know. Follow the link to see a pic of the mom.

******************

Officers said the day started at 7:40 a.m. when the boy arrived at school with his mother, Naomi Lewis, who is a cafeteria worker at Bull Run.

[snip]

However, detectives said the boy had a key to the van and returned shortly before 8:30 a.m. Officers said he hid the guns in a cloth bag and went into a school bathroom.

Once in the bathroom, according to detectives, the boy changed into army camouflage clothes and loaded a rifle.

[snip]


A 13-year-old boy was also arrested in the case. He has been charged with conspiracy to possess firearms on school property.

Officers said as many as 10 students knew about the plot, but none came forward.

story
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#786907 - 01/08/05 08:21 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Officers said as many as 10 students knew about the plot, but none came forward.
[/b]
So should these ten students also face charges of criminal negligence?

Or are they just completely, utterly and unambiguously stupid??

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#786908 - 01/08/05 09:10 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Seems like a lot of stupid people are associated with that school!
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#786909 - 01/08/05 09:19 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
ivorythumper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/04/04
Posts: 1730
Loc: The Great American Southwest
If only it were an isolated case...
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#786910 - 01/09/05 08:41 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
markb Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 2593
Loc: Maryland
Jolly wrote: "In my state, a vehicle is considered an extension of your domicile, and all laws apply thereof."

Does this mean that all search and seizure provisions apply equally to home and vehicles, or is this only in reference to weapons laws?
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#786911 - 01/09/05 08:46 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
Weapons laws.
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#786912 - 01/09/05 10:43 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
markb Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 2593
Loc: Maryland
Ok. Otherwise, that would seem to go against the Supreme Court's consistent stand that vehicles are not afforded the same expectation of privacy as domiciles.
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#786913 - 01/09/05 06:08 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
pianafetish Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/26/04
Posts: 139
Loc: Greenville, NC
it just goes to show that some people need to get a clue about raising kids and stop listening to that empty-headed, bald-headed Dr. Phil, who advises against people disiplining their kids by whipping them when they do wrong. so good, they oughta arrested that woman.

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#786914 - 01/09/05 10:27 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3288
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by pianafetish:
disiplining their kids by whipping them [/b]
Whipping them?
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#786915 - 01/10/05 06:24 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
No, Steve, whipping them is for weenies.

Real parents *beat* their children.
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#786916 - 01/10/05 08:33 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
Cindy wrote:

 Quote:
What does that even mean, anyway?
Nothing really. Mostly just pulling your chain and Jolly’s. I have a vague recollection of what my points were at the time and, in retrospect, they were really inconsequential. Just another of many examples of my posting impulsively.
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#786917 - 01/10/05 08:43 AM Re: Jail or Probation?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14037
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nina:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
Officers said as many as 10 students knew about the plot, but none came forward.
[/b]
So should these ten students also face charges of criminal negligence?

Or are they just completely, utterly and unambiguously stupid?? [/b]
I believe the students would be guilty of conspiracy. Their parents, however....
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#786918 - 01/10/05 01:08 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
 Quote:
Nothing really. Mostly just pulling your chain and Jolly’s.
Whew! You had me on the run for a minute there!

You can pull my chain anytime, MM. :2hearts: :3hearts:
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#786919 - 01/10/05 01:24 PM Re: Jail or Probation?
markb Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 2593
Loc: Maryland
Jolly wrote: "I believe the students would be guilty of conspiracy."

I'm not sure about that, unless state law is different than federal law regarding conspiracies. I don't think that merely knowing about the plot makes one a conspirator. Maybe they'd be guilty of a crime of ommission, instead. I could be wrong, of course. Where are those lawyers when you need them?
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