Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?

I have made a few comments in this thread but have yet to comment on whether I think children should be see this program as part of their school curriculum.

Personally, I do not like the idea of this program or anything of the myriad of special programs that are out there being brought into elementary schools. Not because I do not approve of what is being presented, but because I am opposed to all of this sort of peripheral education for the children. I do not like an outside group teaching social values. I do not like an outside group teaching sexual values. I do not like an outside group teaching cultural value. I do not like an outside group teaching religious values.

I do not like such things as Black History Month, Christmas Programs, prayer in school or anything else which divides the children or emphasizes a division in a pluralistic society. The divisions are there. The kids see them and know them. The schools need not emphasize them -- even if the intent is benign. More often than not, when one listens to the children afterwards, these programs backfire as often as they succeed.

Yes, the children should be taught tolerance. More importantly, they should be taught acceptance. But it needs to imbue all of what happens in school as it must in all of society. It should not be a special subject matter or presented through some sort of special program, month or anything of that sort.

If the children are attacking other children who are different (as they will), this becomes a learning situation. If within a subject matter, such as history, geography or whatever, there is discussion of people from different backgrounds, cultures, whatever, acceptance of these people should be taught. If the sports minded kids are attacking those who are more intellectually or artistically inclined, this is a basis on which to teach proper values of tolerance and acceptance. If those who achieve more or get higher grades or whatever act as if this makes them better human beings than the other children, a learning possibility develops.

But I think it all should be within the context of the normal educational process and the normal social environment of the school.

The other side of the problem is also unacceptable to me, the inherent teaching of intolerance and non-acceptance. In too many curricula and school environments, differences are not accepted and children are indirectly taught that some people are inferior to others. Too many schools celebrate sports victories but not academic, artistic or scientific victories. History and literature are taught with a strong euro-centric base. Education and the entire school experience must be value/culture/lifestyle neutral.

I have raised (almost finished, thank God) three children. One has completed college, one is in college, one is still in high school. I have never liked these types of programs because I think they take away from what I believe the children need to be focused on. They also tend to define problems the children do not necessarily have, but become problems as soon as the adults emphasize them as problems for the children.

A case in point was the discussion we had a couple of months ago about the 7 year old who told his friend his mother had a female lover. This friend told his parents and all heck broke loose. No doubt, the two seven year olds had resolved this in a seven year old manner. But the adults stepped in and made it something it never should have been for children that young.

Another example. I recall one of my sons having to do an oral report on the biography of some famous person -- sixth or seventh grade I think it was. In his research he found out this person was homosexual. He thought it was pertinent and intended to include it in his oral report. Because part of the assignment for this was to teach the children how to prepare for oral reports, he had to hand in an outline. The teacher struck this from his presentation because she felt it was not appropriate.

This is the type of intolerance and non-acceptance that needs to be removed from the schools. One sentence uttered by one child in one oral report was not going to damage any child or undermine any parent's authority -- but it might have helped some child in a couple of more years when he/she was grappling with accepting his/her own homosexuality.

One thing I have found in my children's education is that the children usually see through agenda ridden curricula really quickly and judge it as such, especially as the children get older. I have yet to see one of these programs have much impact on the children anyway. The moment the program is done and any follow-up discussion/activity has taken place, the kids move on to what they find as more important things -- like who hurt their feelings, what is going to be on the next test, complaining about having to read ANOTHER book and do ANOTHER book report or whining about how hard long division is and why do they have to learn it because they will never use it in their life anyway, blah, blah, blah.

rvaga says a few posts up that what happens at home and the attitudes at home are the most important. This is true. It does not matter what the schools teach or what programs they bring in. If the same values are not taught at home, the school program is meaningless. The schools can teach tolerance all they want; but if the home teaches intolerance, the children will be intolerant.

apple says "education tax money - How do you spend it when there's so much ...?" I do not know if this type of program results because there is too much money. However, her point of determining educational priorities is an important one. In my opinion, if there is money for such extra curricular activities, then let the kids go to a museum, bring in a special program on the orchestra or art, or some other special curriculum that underlines education, not social values.

Tolerance and acceptance must be the mindset of all school adminstrators and all teachers -- and it must be incorporated in the entire school environent. But it should not be a special curriculum or a special program. It simply should be how things are at school.

JA:
...sixth or seventh grade I think it was. In his research he found out this person was homosexual. He thought it was pertinent

I didn't even know what a homosexual was in sixth grade or that the word (or people) even existed.

More importantly, they should be taught to discriminate. Not all things should be tolerated. Not all things should be accepted. Learning which is which is what is what.

very nice... JA.. you are so thoughtful sometimes.

gryphon: I'm just remembering that when my second son was in elementary school, right around fourth grade, "gay" (later spelled "gheigh")became a put-down.

It's still used as an adjective for just about everything the kids want to describe in a negative way. We're talking High School now. And I'm still having a heck of a time eradicating it from his vocabulary. I THINK, thiough, that it's finally penetrating that, like the similar use of "retarded", it might seriously hurt the feelings of someone hearing it. A someone who might feel it applies to him or her, or a family member.

Things have changed, gryphon. I too don't EVER recalling hearing the word (or an derogatory equivalent like "fag") in school. Perhaps part of it is that I (later) went to an all-girls' high school - though we talked like Marines. Maybe it's more of a "guy" put-down. "Fatso" or "fatty" or "scag" were the dreaded words in my recollection.

The funny thing is, when I asked my son about the word "gay" when he first started using it as an insult - as expected - neither he (nor his friends) had the faintest foggiest idea what it meant!

Ariel

Remember when we used to call each other queer? I was reading my senior yearbook, and almost every little note/signature included "You are so Queer" .

I didn't know what gay was till I was 19!. Of course I had my first beer at 18, and me second at 19.. (Won't tell what happened when I turned 21). :p

While I PERSONALLY disagree with the term used by these first graders, as an American I would fight to the death to defend these kids' Freedom of Speech!

We called each other queer too, but we darn well knew what it meant and it was meant to be the utlimate put-down, even when in jest. I had one best friend throughout high school. We bucked the establishment with our dress and actions, including rejecting the cool kids by openly eschewing drugs and alcohol, and we were a tight little unit. Well, certain cool kids were jealous of us, because we were cooler than them in a kooky way and invulnerable. Since we were pretty impervious to the meanies, they ultimately started a rumor that we were gay. I remember being utterly shocked at the thought, but then I became sort of proud of it and wore my quasi-gayness proudly. It certainly gave me a little taste of the intolerance.

Right you are Tom. I will stand with you to defend your children's freedom of speech, YOUR freedom of speech, MY freedom of speech, and my RIGHT to not listen to ANYONE tell me how I should raise MY children. Mind your own business, thank-you very much. YOU (read that as anyone who thinks they know better than I how my children should be raised) raise your children how you see fit and I shall do the same. I won't pass judgement on you, and I expect the same in return.

John Andrew,

Very nice post, I agree with you 100%.

(Don't worry, you will stop shuddering in a few minutes. . .)

Well played my improvising friend, except for the last note, it's ring is sour to my ear. You can't pass judgment on me, but I can pass judgment on YOU.

You see, I'm part of the intellecual elite. I live in NYC, (ain't talking Brooklyn here.) I travel in sophisticated circles. I make my money from other's hard work. I lunch. If my liberal neighbor down the hall who does the same and writes for the NYTimes could judge, why not little ol' me?

You are such a girl.

Thou doest mortally wound me Tom (with a K).

But seriously, that's my point exactly. The old "Do as I say, not as I do". If a liberal had to take their own medicine they dish out, they'd choke to death on it.

Improviso,

You're not addressing the Forum's foremost liberal in Mr. K above, you know (chortle).

Ariel

Alas, sweet, sweet Ariel, Improvisio does address the Forum's most Liberal poster, it's just that my liberality is that of the 17th Century variety.

uh oh wrong thread

Yes, I know. Tom and I could probably debate for hours, who is the more conservative of the two of us. I was just having some fun with him, as he was with me.

Ha! You aren't fooling me, not one little bit. Your pronoun doesn't agree with its antecedent subject, a sure sign you are either a liberal PC weenie or a female who's afraid of hurting another's feelings. In either case, this staunch right-wing machismo persona is just a front.

Have I got it right?

Well spoken my valued and true friend! Let's hope it will be slow and painful. Let's hope we see some suffering and agony.

NO! We're better than that. Let's state opinions, but never without listening. Let's speak freedom, but never without respect. But most of all let's learn love and its value, but never at the expense of truth.

It's been my philosophy on this Forum, I have served it imperfectly in my time here, but, my heart is true. My heart is willing.

Take my hand.

CHORTLE CHORTLE - as in the Marquis de Sade!

Ouch! You know me too well, my beauty.