Piano World Home Page Forums Restricted and Archives The Coffee Room Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?

Then you and people of the same mindset will bear the blame for the societal ills caused by the continued antipathy towards homosexuality. That, unlike homosexuality, IS a choice. Repressing homosexulity won't make it go away, nor will your religious beliefs (or anyone else's), parental love or rebuke, role models, social pressure, etc., you name it. You can live in your fantasy land where homosexuality is some induced behavior that can be controlled by early conditioning. But, guess what, it doesn't work. Children will be homosexuals regardless. There are millions that are living proof.

And, speaking of presumptuousness, this comment of yours is completely off the scale on the presume-o-meter:
Oh really? Have you had someone watch every single move they make, have you had their thoughts monitored, and had all of this reported back to you? Read my previous comments about outward appearances. You're living in a fantasy of denial if you think your kids couldn't even possibly be homosexual. The truth is, you do not, in fact, know. Lots of gay folks I know were brought up in good, God-fearing Baptist households, with "normal" mothers and fathers, and with a well-developed sense of values that they still hold to. But they're still gay.

The story of your gay subordinate is feckless, abd using it as some sort of proof of your "compassion" is disingenuous. And your condescension regarding my or anyone else's sexual activities is noted. Frankly, I wasn't aware that anyone needed or wanted your permission to engage in any activities whatsoever. Sheesh.

I think you are misunderstanding me. I am amazed at what has happened in this thread - it doesn't matter what your opinion is of homosexuality, there is no excuse for *any* kind of "tolerance training" that has sexual overtones, even in the slightest, from *any* direction - to K-6 kids. No, I did not say that exposing small children to this will "make them homosexuals". I said it will make them act out things that may go too far, and that it can result in behavior that can scar them for life. Kids this age are highly susceptible to suggestion as well, and they don't need to have the gravity of such issues places on things they aren't even ready to deal with yet. Some of you want to believe there is no agenda - if that is the case, then at the very least, there is a lot of stark and utter stupidity regarding children involved by those who are promoting this crap. Personally, I think if you put aside your *own* (a "group" you) prejudices and agendas and simply look at the lyrics you will see a clear agenda to indoctrinate, but I'll leave that alone for now and address what I'm addressing.

Yes Lucy, I know that kids will play in their parent's shoes and clothes. I have raised 9 children - I think I know at this point what is involved in raising children. My boys have, as small kids, put on their mother's high heels and walked around in them in the house. Things like that are natural - they aren't doing it as a sexual experiment, nor are they doing it with any weighty thinking on their part about sexual preferences, or the need to be tolerant. They are doing it because it is something to do that seems fun at the time. Mommy wears shoes that make her taller, I'm a little kid, I love Mommy, I think it would be fun to put them on and walk around in the house. I've had daughters put on *my* shoes and drag them around on their feet. I've had my sons put on my shoes, and I've had daughers put on their mother's shoes. Sexuality, heavy social thought is not involved. They aren't trying to shape their future sexual identities by doing it, they are simply playing.

But - sit a 7 year old down and tell him that some of the other boys in school may want to dress up like his mother, and may grow up to want to be the "mommy" in a "mommy and daddy" set, and you've given him too much information. Now you've burdened him with things he isn't even ready to have to deal with yet, and the result can be scary and confusing for many of them.

All of the concern by those who think this is just fine seems to be aimed only at those who might grow up to be homosexual. What about the 98% of them that *won't* grow up to be homosexual? What about the little kid who goes home, who is destined to be straight, who is now burdened with two thoughts - one, I just learned more about sex than I'm ready to process, and two: oh no..... I was playing around with Mommy's shoes and makeup just last week.... am I going to be attracted to boys? Is there something wrong with me? Now, in your attempt at help one you've harmed another.

Kids will, by nature, experiment, act out things, act *on* things, as they develop. Much of their role playing is innocent fun, and it should be left that way. Many issues should be left alone, and dealt with individually, as the issue arises. Someone said "what about the parents who aren't capable of teaching this stuff to their children?" This is just one more example of how far off course we are as a society, how adrift we have become as a result of decades of this kind of social engineering. Many have lost sight of the fact that part of being a parent is *learning* how to handle these things. One of the biggest reasons so many parents *aren't* capable of handling things like this is because society tries to do so much for them already. Parents should be left alone to teach things like this to their own children. You are robbing them of some tremendous learning experiences, some extremely valuable human experiences with their children when you try to do their job for them. Sure, some will stumble. Some won't learn at all. Life isn't perfect.

But the fact remains, a school's job is to teach your child how to read, write, and do math. Later on you add things like history, geography, literature. It is *not* the job of the school, or society at large, to teach children about anything else. That is the parent's job, and for better or worse, those issues should be left up to parents to teach. At some point, once the child has reached an age where these things are actually now an issue with them, *then* you can talk to them about tolerance for the differences that have manifested themselves among them.

Try this one: a group comes to your kid's school, goes into the kindergarten classroom, and does a play on schizophrenics. The objective is to teach your child that there are some people out there who, through no fault of their own, are crazy. Some of these crazy people can be dangerous, but they don't mean to be, and they should be treated with respect, and not be made fun of. No, I'm not drawing any parallels. No, I'm not calling homosexuals crazy, or dangerous. What I *am* doing is showing you yet another issue that isn't even an issue to these kids yet, that they have no questions about, and that has no agenda attached to it, but that you have now introduced more questions than answers to the group, and scared a lot of kids for no reason.

If you want to teach tolerance, direct your educational efforts properly. Teach parents how to parent. Don't teach them *what* to instill in their children - that's *their* decision. Just teach them how. Teach them not to be bigots, or homophobes, or fanatics. Teach them how to talk to their children, teach them the importance of being involved in their children's lives, and how to be involved in their children's lives.

But get your social engineering out of the classroom. Get your agenda driven programs out of the classrooms of children too young to process it all. I'm sorry, but to teach a 6 year old about "queens" being superior to regular boys, and use dead animals and things like that the way they are used in this song, is sick. It is agenda driven, and it is misguided. The sugar coating being applied to this kind of activity, the rationalization of this kind of "education", is hollow. I will say it again, as the parent of 9 children - leave our children alone. Let the parents handle these issues with their own children, as the situation arises, at the proper point in time in each child's life. A bunny rabbit with a stick of dynamite up its ass is still a cute, furry little ball of sweetness if you don't recognize the dangers.

Good post, Matt.

thanks for your time Larry.

That just about sums it up. Good post Larry.

Ve Vill not tolerate your intolerance. You must be educated. To do this, you vill go to our reeducation camps.........

Who knows? Maybe the intolerant on here will enjoy the bath houses (oops! I mean reeducation camps!)

Considering the nature of the threads on here the past few weeks, they really do seem to be obsessed with homosexual behavior. One wonders where this obsession comes from and how much time they spend fantasizing (I mean, thinking) about it.

Your problem JA, is you don't seem to understand just who it is that is intolerant.

Your post was, as I expect from you, stupid, condescending, off the mark, and insulting.

And in anticipation of your reply, Ariel:

A few years ago the The International Lesbian & Gay Association (ILGA) circulated an anti-pedophilia pledge and demanded that all member organizations sign it, but then withdrew the requirement after over half refused to do so.

In all fairness the ILGA did eventually rescind NAMBLA's member status because they interfered with ILGA's political goals, one of which is U.N. approval. But ILGA's history shows why this was a political move, because prior to that the ILGA urged member organizations to lobby their governments to abolish the age of consent laws.

Letter to the Editor from mother of gay son

jf

Is there any "excuse" for "tolerance training" in connection with racial differences?

Is this all that different?

I have some qualms about ANY kind of sex education in school, but I have fewer about "tolerance training."

Jolly, it's not just about what people do with their body parts...not hardly.

jf

Sob story, nothing more. I would have hoped that he wrote a "letter" to his parents expaining "who he was"--always a sign of good parenting, when your kid writes you a "letter" saying who he/she is before they die.

The lady is making excuses, just making excuses.

Thank you, gryphon, for answering for me (no sarcasm). As you may have noticed I alluded to your news bulletin about NAMBLA elsewhere.

And BTW, I think NAMBLA is a beyond belief disgusting organization, set up to rationalize, (as most pedophiles do), that their victims enjoy it...or have even seduced them, the predators!

I stand by my original statement though, because with all the prejudice about homosexuality, it's very unfair as well as inaccurate to associate/attribute a crime to the small numbers within that group who engage in it or approve of it.

It's kind of like the stigma about mental illness. The number of persons with a psychosis who engage in violent crime is minute. However, the publicity attached to the few sensational crimes where these poor crazies are involved, feeds the general public's fear and prejudice about mental illness.

In terms of set-theory, the sub-set of homosexual pedophiles is also minute, far outweighed by the larger set of heterosexual pedophiles.

The shock and outrage value attached to the abuse of a boy, however, is (I maintain) far greater than that attached to abuse of female minors because of the public's distrust and fear of homosexuality. Amd yet the number of minor females abused is many multiples of the number of males (no, I don't have numbers at hand. Ask your friendly neighborohood Chief of Police).

As far as the signatories above - God only knows - but I think you've heard of "sampling error". I dare say that the number of gays who belong to that activist organization are not representative of gays at large (most of whom I'll bet are still closeted, many even to themselves). It's even possible that this particular organization consists particularly of the most aggressive, hostile, "in-your-face" gays around. Think about it...How many actual "card-carrying" gays do you think there are?

Ariel

Hmmm,"tolerance training", not too Orwellian! :rolleyes:

jf, your article is titled "Discrimination can kill." The mother says discrimination can kill the body. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the kid died of AIDS because he was engaging in risky sexual behavior. So in actuality, discrimination can save lives. If he had been discriminating in who he slept around with he'd still be alive today.

Ariel, I never said the majority of homosexuals were pedophiles. *You* said that to associate pedophilia with homosexuality is unfair. I pointed out to you that NAMBLA proudly marches in all the "gay" pride parades behind their own banner. I pointed out to you that they are a member of other mainstream homosexual organizations. I pointed out to you that ILGA tried to force all of their member organizations to sign an anti-pedophilia pledge and over half refused to! So don't tell me that any association between homosexuals and pedophilia is non-existant.

Gryph, you are right there is a certain disconnect. It is a letter to the editor and I think the paper supplied the title. The point was just to put a human face on some of the points that have been made...in particular the very high suicide rate among gay teens, many of whom no doubt found it just too painful to live in a world where so many of their peers are intolerant of "fags" and some make a game out of beating them up.

Teaching tolerance can't be that bad in this context can it?

jf

I'd like to see documentation of that Gryphon. The ILGA pledge part. Do you have a link? It seems unlikely to me.

Todd

Nevermind,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Lesbian_and_Gay_Association
Not sure about the source, but it is interesting. It also isn't the same as your story. They asked NAMBLA and others to leave, and the groups refused. A few months later ILGA booted them.

Seems like ILGA wasn't very discriminate in what groups could join them a decade ago. Also appears they've improved. However, this prior association of the organizations doesn't establish a scientific link between homosexuality and pedophilia. It only demonstrates that even gay/lesbian organizations can make mistakes, and correct them.

If Helms pressure on ILGA to remove any groups that support pedophilia from their ranks was effective, then the gay/lesbian community had 1 thing they could thank him for. 1.

Gryphon, I never said that YOU said that the majority of gays are pedophiles.

I said that in terms of the numbers, to repeatedly forge a mental assciation (as if one caused the other) is unfair to the majority, who already face discrimination and misunderstanding.

I think it's fair to say that most pedophiles preying on boys are homosexual. I think it's fair to say that ALL pedophiles preying on young girls are heterosexual.

Do we associate (perhaps not the best word choice, originally) pedophilia with heterosexuality?

Perverts are perverts, gay or straight.

Ariel