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#799837 - 03/19/04 10:41 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
View from a parent:

There is too much intolerance among kids towards other races, religions, ethnicities, and - yes - gays.

In a perfect world children learn values, morals, tolerance, etc. from their parents. In the real world either too many kids learn the wrong values, morals, and to be intolerant, or they learn nothing at home. As a result, schools should have a role in reinforcing positive values, tolerance, and so forth.

How they present this issue will be extremely important in determining how the message is received. I'm not so sure that a kid on stage in high heels is the right way to present the issue. Some parents will not have a problem with this. Some parents will be uncomfortable with this. Some parents will say "homosexuality is against my religion, and I don't want my kids exposed to this." The end result will be a lot of parents exercising their right to not have their kids exposed to the play, through lawsuits, pressure on the school, or simply taking their kids out of school for the day(s) it is being shown, and refusing to allow their kids to have any part in any curriculum associated with it. So, you will end up with a lot of bad will from those parents, and a lot of "preaching to the converted" towards the other parents.

My daughter goes to a private school that I pay a lot of money for. My daughter's teachers think I'm a pain, because I complain that they do too much extra stuff that takes time away from learning. Tolerance should be taught as issues arise in the classroom - bullying, name calling, etc. If schools need an outside theatre organization introduce tolerance, they are not competent.

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#799838 - 03/19/04 11:26 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
Your first point is interesting to me. My town is significantly diverse...while my kids are young, they don't seem to notice the outward differences in their peers. Maybe that will all change when they get deeper into the machine.

Your second statement I can't quite reconcile. I don't think others' values are "wrong" unless they are contrary to what society has mandated by law (even that is a gray area); they are either in agreement or disagreement with our own. If someone wants to teach their kids to hate [insert qualifier here], the schools have no business telling them otherwise. The problems arise when kids act out on their hatred in a manner that either causes disruption to the education process, or is actively projected at an individual group. This should be handled via discipline, IMO.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Phlebas:
View from a parent:

There is too much intolerance among kids towards other races, religions, ethnicities, and - yes - gays.

In a perfect world children learn values, morals, tolerance, etc. from their parents. In the real world either too many kids learn the wrong values, morals, and to be intolerant, or they learn nothing at home. As a result, schools should have a role in reinforcing positive values, tolerance, and so forth.
[/b]
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#799839 - 03/19/04 11:34 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:
[QB]
Your second statement I can't quite reconcile. I don't think others' values are "wrong" unless they are contrary to what society has mandated by law (even that is a gray area); they are either in agreement or disagreement with our own. If someone wants to teach their kids to hate [insert qualifier here], the schools have no business telling them otherwise. The problems arise when kids act out on their hatred in a manner that either causes disruption to the education process, or is actively projected at an individual group. This should be handled via discipline, IMO.

There are positive and negative values. When I observe parents using the worst kind of racial slurs in front of their kids, telling their kids it's ok to bully, it's ok to have boyfriends and girlfriends in 3rd grade - all of which I have observed - that is teaching negative values. Schools can and should counteract that. The question is how do they do it.

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#799840 - 03/19/04 11:37 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
And let them laugh and let them scream!
They’ll be beheaded when I’m queen!
When I rule the world! When I rule the world!
When I rule the world, in my mommy’s high heels!


[/b]
Yep, this is just teaching tolerance :rolleyes: .
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#799841 - 03/19/04 11:47 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
It is awful to see that kind of behavior from parents; even worse to see it taught to the kids.

I just worry about the lack of a line of demarcation. Whenever I find myself trying to apply the laws of unintended consequences to these situations, I err on the side of personal freedoms over the apparent greater good. Sometimes, like in the case of gays, you can have 2 equally justifiable, opposite positions that are rooted in cultural or philosophical differences (a la Larry and Barnard). You've used an extreme, but valid example of parental values that a teacher would view as negative. But what if that teacher decides that Johnny's parents are teaching negative values because they drive an SUV?

I say let the teachers teach the academics and provide positive values through example. I guess I'm ultimately saying that these value issues should be part of the school environment, but not part of the curriculum.
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#799842 - 03/19/04 11:48 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Did you notice that the "normal" kids carry shrunken heads and dead cats for show and tell, while the one in high heels is presented as the reasonable one. That is, if a boy wanting to be queen is reasonable.
 Quote:
ny1911:
Wasn't Carrie Fisher wearing heels in "The Blues Brothers" when she shot the M16 in the flood control culvert? [/b]
You see how well she did.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#799843 - 03/19/04 11:51 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
The biggest problem with the song is that it implies a superiority to crossdressers over regular folk. that's not teaching tolerance, that's saying "If you want to rule the world, be a crossdresser".

Th other thing is it's not teaching anything about homosexuality, it's about crossdressers. Crossdressing has nothing to do with homo or hetero sexuality. Their are gay crossdressers and straight crossdressers, and they are far in the minority of both groups. Is anybody ever born with a genetic disposition for crossdressing? You'd have a hard time selling me on that one. It is psychological abnormality. This song does nothing to promote tolerance of gays, and if anything will put older heterosexual kids on the defensive. It should put homosexual adults on the defensive as well, as it put's iup the message that homosexuals are crossdressers intent on ruling the world and getting revenge on straights.

So tell me Bernard, is that the message you want to send, I don't think so. You're an intelligent well spoken gentleman. I just think your vision gets a little blurry and you get defensive on issues dealing with sexuality.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#799844 - 03/19/04 11:57 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by ny1911:

I say let the teachers teach the academics and provide positive values through example. I guess I'm ultimately saying that these value issues should be part of the school environment, but not part of the curriculum. [/b]
I pretty much agree with that. As I said before, issues should be addressed as they arise.

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#799845 - 03/19/04 12:30 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Toddler2 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 760
Loc: Hillsborough, NC
I have a gay uncle, and several friends who are openly gay. Interesting to me is that two of the four gay men are shrinks, one is a nurse, and one a businessman. They're all great guys, and the only lesbian couple we socialized with were also very nice, both physicians. That said, the song/skit Larry posted offended me.

I'm not intolerant. I was gung ho to leave Vermont because my daughter never saw a black person until she was over two. Now my kids are in a school where 50% of the children have or are at risk for a developmental delay due to a physical or mental handicap. It's awsome, my kids simply accept as normal that some kids walk, some don't, and that people are different.

BUT! That skit is over the line for little kids. The line about beheading people and becoming a Queen is clearly not needed. It has a sexual meaning and references violence at a time kids get expelled for playing cops and robbers with their fingers! K-6 is not the right time for this. That skit about the little boy who loved his doll was fine. No sexual implications or language.

5 year olds don't need to have normal-variant sexuality thrown in their faces to teach them to tolerate it. All it will do is confuse them.

Also, while I think homosexuality is fine if that's someones orientation, why are they trying to associate it with cross-dressing. When put together, they are showing that little boy trying to attract strait little boys. That may occur in real life before the little guy figures out what he is and wants, but you don't want the gay little kids in the audience to think this is how he has to dress or act. And you don't want the strait kids to think this is what homosexuality is about.

Gay men and boys aren't all sissies. Lesbians aren't all butch. To imply they are is stupid and offends me. It probably has a slew of dead gladiators rolling in their graves too!

Todd
_________________________
M&H AA (2006)

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#799846 - 03/19/04 12:37 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Toddler2 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 760
Loc: Hillsborough, NC
PS) NY1911, what are you doing with that little sissy Kel Tec? My next buy will be a 642 with crimson traces and leather from Lou Alessi's or PCS.
_________________________
M&H AA (2006)

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#799847 - 03/19/04 01:07 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
How did you guess it is a Kel-Tec? I like the Springfield Ultra Compact, but they're too heavy and hard to conceal all of the time. Oh well...a .380 in my pocket is better than a .45 at home. ;\)

Sorry for hijacking the thread...
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#799848 - 03/19/04 01:14 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
 Quote:
quote:I don't care what anyone does in their own personal adult life.

Yes you do.
I have to apologize to Larry over this remark. It was ill-considered and gratuitous.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#799849 - 03/19/04 01:17 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Phlebas, Luke's Dad and Toddler2, you make some very good points and have supplied food for thought. On re-reading the skit I see what you mean.

I am wondering how many skits are in the collection and how the others compare to this one.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#799850 - 03/19/04 01:24 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Larry, I'd like to see your source that these skits are being "taught" in California schools. From all I can gather it is a collection of skits that is being performed in school assemblies.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#799851 - 03/19/04 01:31 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Bernard, I see that a good night's rest has restored some clarity for you. Thank you.

My understanding is that most of the material in this production is equally offensive.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#799852 - 03/19/04 01:33 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I am reserving judgement until I can read the whole thing.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#799853 - 03/19/04 01:42 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....I resent it being introduced into this innocent community of children by some gay uncle who wants his nephew to **** his ****.[/b]
Apple, have you called the police about this? This guy needs to be locked up as a sexual predator and be put on the sexual offenders list in your state, now! A man trying to get little kids to have sex with him can NOT be tolerated!
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#799854 - 03/19/04 02:02 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by apple:
From personal experience...

In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....

games to play,
things to say,
ways to pass a rainy day
things not appropriate to share in this forum.

This kids little brother now is trying to get my daughter and her friend to play "kiss my peepee" and other stuff. [/b]

Interesting because something very simmilar happened with my friend's 6 year old son, except that it was taught to him by a 6 year old girl nieghbor whose single mother is straight but very sexually active. To use this type of semi-pedophiliac example to defame the gay is plain wrong. Children suffer from perverted and uncaring adults regardless of whether they are gay or straight.

I just want to illustrate that it is inappropriate for children to be exposed to sexuality by those who are not their parents. It should not be taught in schools. [/b]

So by this reasoning then children who have parents who are too repressed or too dumb to talk about it with their kids should just deal with the consequences? What will you say to them, "oh sorry hon, you should have been born to more well-educated parents"?

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

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#799855 - 03/19/04 02:07 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....I resent it being introduced into this innocent community of children by some gay uncle who wants his nephew to **** his ****.[/b]
Apple, have you called the police about this? This guy needs to be locked up as a sexual predator and be put on the sexual offenders list in your state, now! A man trying to get little kids to have sex with him can NOT be tolerated! [/b]
Gryphon's right. Keep your kids away from these kids and the uncle. You may want to report it as well. Sounds like they are being abused.

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#799856 - 03/19/04 02:19 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
I believe that it has been shown that approximately 3% of the male population is homosexual. That 3% commits 1/3 of the pedophilia. While one can't conclude that a homosexual male is a pedophile, that's where a profiler would look first.

I agree that parents should have the final say in whether sexually related materials are presented to their children. Electives in sexuality are fine with the parents' consent. It's bad enough that kids get misinformation from the media and their peers, why add the school system?

 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:

Interesting because something very simmilar happened with my friend's 6 year old son, except that it was taught to him by a 6 year old girl nieghbor whose single mother is straight but very sexually active. To use this type of semi-pedophiliac example to defame the gay is plain wrong. Children suffer from perverted and uncaring adults regardless of whether they are gay or straight.

I just want to illustrate that it is inappropriate for children to be exposed to sexuality by those who are not their parents. It should not be taught in schools. [/b]

So by this reasoning then children who have parents who are too repressed or too dumb to talk about it with their kids should just deal with the consequences? What will you say to them, "oh sorry hon, you should have been born to more well-educated parents"?

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com [/b]
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#799857 - 03/19/04 02:43 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ny1911:
I believe that it has been shown that approximately 3% of the male population is homosexual. That 3% commits 1/3 of the pedophilia. [/b]

Where does the 1/3 number come from? I am not acquainted with it.

I agree that parents should have the final say in whether sexually related materials are presented to their children. Electives in sexuality are fine with the parents' consent. It's bad enough that kids get misinformation from the media and their peers, why add the school system?[/b]

So then you're saying that a child born to parents who do not discuss sexual issues or are themselves misinformed about them (AIDS, sexually transmitted diseases, pregnancy) has to suffer the consequences because your children are lucky enough to have that education at home? This seems extremely unfair to me.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

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#799858 - 03/19/04 02:46 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Luke's dad, I think you'll find that what I'm defensive about it being called a "sick bastard", "a sick pervert"; that I "want to screw up as many little kids as I can so more of them will sit around their apartment wondering if they are queer or straight, talking to their birds."

When someone starts denigrating an entire group of people as sick bastards (See post #2), I'm going to use the word bigot and I'm going to defend myself. I should think that would be obvious.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#799859 - 03/19/04 03:03 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Improviso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1484
Gee Bernard,

Your defensive about labels like "sick bastard" and "a sick pervert" just like "hetero men" are defensive about being labeled "bigots" and "homophobe". We don't fear you. We find your sexual lifestyle sickenly distasteful. It's an opinion, not a fear.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

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#799860 - 03/19/04 03:07 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Oh how interesting, here we have "Improviso" who's very first post at Piano World is shot at me.

I hope that some of my longtime acquantances here will come to my aid and help set this person straight.

Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here?
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#799861 - 03/19/04 03:09 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by Improviso:
Gee Bernard,

Your defensive about labels like "sick bastard" and "a sick pervert" just like "hetero men" are defensive about being labeled "bigots" and "homophobe". We don't fear you. We find your sexual lifestyle sickenly distasteful. It's an opinion, not a fear. [/b]
Improviso. Welcome to the Coffee Room! Well stated. You do seem to know what you're talking about. Welcome.

 Quote:
Posted by Bernard: I hope that some of my longtime acquantances here will come to my aid and help set this person straight.

Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here?[/b]
Bernard, I don't know. I kind of like him/her. \:D

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#799862 - 03/19/04 03:14 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
In fairness to Gryph, I don't think that he was addressing the homosexuality community as a whole, but rather those people (straight or gay) that wrote, performed, and promote the song. The song, as it's shown, will be found to be offensive even by reasonable and fair standards, and as I stated earler, actually can cast homosexuals in a negative light.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#799863 - 03/19/04 03:18 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
When someone starts denigrating an entire group of people as sick bastards (See post #2), I'm going to use the word bigot and I'm going to defend myself.[/b]
I didn't call you a sick bastard, I said the people who promote this stuff like "Cootie Shots" and "King & King" to little kids are sick bastards. For example, GLSEN and the principal of Freeman Elementary School. And they are.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#799864 - 03/19/04 03:18 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:

I hope that some of my longtime acquantances here will come to my aid and help set this person straight.
[/b]
A gay friend of mine once told me, "there is no straight, only gaily forward!" \:D

 Quote:

Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here? [/b]
I kind of thought so, too.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#799865 - 03/19/04 03:24 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I talk to our bird all the time. He even says little things back. I don't know if they are nice things since I don't speak bluejay but I can hope.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#799866 - 03/19/04 03:24 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
Isn't it somewhat peculiar for a brand new poster at PW to be posting something like that in here? [/b]
Pay no attention Bernard, most likely a troll.

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

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