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#799927 - 03/19/04 11:19 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
SameKenny Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 116
Loc: So California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
When a homosexual paints their lifestyle as "normal", or even better than the heterosexual norm, and induces a child to immerse himself within that lifestyle.

Children are not fair game for alternative lifestyles.
[/b]
How do people become gay since they were raised in a "non-alternative" lifestyle?
Maybe roll modeling just doesn't apply to the straight/gay thing.
A gay kid raised in an environment of intolerance WILL be more likely to grow up straight acting and appearing, but that ain't that same thing as straight, Jolly.

I do not have children.
Does that disqualify me from having an opinion here?


Oh, and gay IS normal for gay people.
Just like straight is persumably "normal" for you.
Then again they say the biggest homophobes are the most insecure hets, terrified of their shadow (in the Jungian sense).

BTW Jolly, do you think evil and satan are in all of us or they are external?
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I know I think.

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#799928 - 03/19/04 11:30 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

Then if apple's son is lured into homosexual activity, it is simply because he was born that way.

I understand your position perfectly, and allow me to say, I disagree. [/b]
If Apple's son turns out to be a homosexual, you can bet your tootin' it wasn't because he was lured (unless there was something I missed in this thread). She as likely as you, me, Kenny or Hillary to have a homosexual offspring.

Edit: ... or John Ashcroft. \:o

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#799929 - 03/19/04 11:35 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
SameKenny Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 116
Loc: So California
Is gayness inherited?
Do you think it is a recessive or a dominant trait?

Of course real data will never exist until it is safe for gays to stand up and be counted.
Not in our lifetime judging by the crap in this coffee room.

One thing that makes me barf is how quickly people say, “ Why, I have two friends, or cousins, who are gay. . .”
After demonstrating membership in some cool club, they pen their poison.
_________________________
I think I know.
I know I think.

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#799930 - 03/19/04 11:41 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by SameKenny:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
When a homosexual paints their lifestyle as "normal", or even better than the heterosexual norm, and induces a child to immerse himself within that lifestyle.

Children are not fair game for alternative lifestyles.
[/b]
How do people become gay since they were raised in a "non-alternative" lifestyle?
Maybe roll modeling just doesn't apply to the straight/gay thing.
A gay kid raised in an environment of intolerance WILL be more likely to grow up straight acting and appearing, but that ain't that same thing as straight, Jolly.

I do not have children.
Does that disqualify me from having an opinion here?


Oh, and gay IS normal for gay people.
Just like straight is persumably "normal" for you.
Then again they say the biggest homophobes are the most insecure hets, terrified of their shadow (in the Jungian sense).

BTW Jolly, do you think evil and satan are in all of us or they are external? [/b]
No children? Then you do not understand, not completely.

When you have children, you try to make their world a little better. You try to insulate them from worldliness, and you try to instill within them the values you think they should have to make their way through life.

You have that responsibility, and no amount of fancy word-play, or logical deductive arguments can convince me to waver from that basic truth.

As to whether we all have Evil inside, I am afraid that is our nature, and a burden we must bear. Chalk me up on the side of Original Sin.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#799931 - 03/19/04 11:46 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
SameKenny Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 116
Loc: So California
What if they are gay?
What if I am gay?

A better world for our kids? yes we agree.

Jolly, since I don't have kids would you like me to delete my posts here?
Verily verily I say unto you, those who "don't understand, not completely" should not be welcome in a forum, perhaps on this earth. Right?

Wouldn't it be comfy if everyone was like you?
May you be blessed with gay children that you may grow.

Enuf pontification for one night.
I'm sleepy.
Hugs,
Opps, sholder slap, "How 'bout them Cubbies?"
_________________________
I think I know.
I know I think.

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#799932 - 03/19/04 11:52 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Sorry old son, my children are a far cry from gay, so you'll have to just chew your lip on that one.

As to deleting your posts, no, I did not say that, you did. I stand behind what I did say, however. If someone does not have children, they do not completely understand the responsibility, and the viewpoint that comes with it.

Lastly, I did not say everyone had to be like me, and I don't think I ever have. I will say what I believe to be right, and what I believe to be wrong.

I do not suffer from the disease of situational ethics, nor moral relativism.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#799933 - 03/19/04 11:53 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
Welll..

I had not checked in on this thread until now.

Wow!

I am somewhat chagrined at the tack the discussion has taken. Jolly's little ditty is really about transvestites, not homosexuals. And most transvestites are straight.
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You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#799934 - 03/19/04 11:55 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Go back and re-read, J.A.

You are confused some more.
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#799935 - 03/20/04 12:03 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
From personal experience...

In my neighborhood there's a 10 year old boy with a homosexual uncle. He started sharing 'tricks' with my same age son a while ago that he learned from his uncle....

games to play,
things to say,
ways to pass a rainy day
things not appropriate to share in this forum.

This kids little brother now is trying to get my daughter and her friend to play "kiss my peepee" and other stuff. I talk with these kids. They love their uncle. They have no idea this type of behavior is innappropriate.

I know children will be children and play whatever silly sex games they will.

I resent it being introduced into this innocent community of children by some gay uncle who wants his nephew to **** his ****.

I don't mean to focus or accuse a member of the gay community, altho I'd like to see this guy stay out of our neighborhood. (and incidentally I've talked with him). I just want to illustrate that it is inappropriate for children to be exposed to sexuality by those who are not their parents. It should not be taught in schools.

For many of us, sexuality is not something to be taken so lightly. [/b]
Apple

I know I am late in my comments, but I echo others who recommend you report this uncle.

You and I are both parents. We both know what is "normal" sexual curiosity and sexual play in little children ("I'll show you mine if you show me yours") and w eknow how to handle it without making it more than it really is. But what you are describing is not normal play.

Nor is having a 10 year old that sexualized normal.

One of the first signs of sexually abused child is a child having/playing at sexual activities beyond his years. No, you cannot be sure this 10 year old is abused. But there is definitely a red flag there.

The fact the uncle is gay has nothing to do with it, in my opinion. My guess is the uncle being gay does not really bother you either. The fact the uncle may be a pedophile has a lot to do with it and isn't this what really bothers you? As a parent, if there were a pedophile in my neighborhood -- gay, straight or whatever -- I would take action to protect my children.

A child in your neighborhood needs to be protected. And it sounds like his younger brother needs to be too. And perhaps other children in the neighborhood.

Are you up to doing something about it? I think if it were me, I would make an appointment with the principal at the kids' school and just tell him what my suspicions are. Then let them check into it and handle it. They know how to handle these things -- unfortunately, they have had to learn.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#799936 - 03/20/04 12:12 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

Then if apple's son is lured into homosexual activity, it is simply because he was born that way. [/b]
While one may be lured into a homosexual action, one cannot be lured into being homosexual.

I am certainly not advocating anyone's child be lured into any sexual activity -- homosexual or straight. But two little boys or two little girls doing something out of curiousity or because it feels good does not mean they are gay or lesbians.

Homosexuality is not defined by physical/sexual activity. It is defined by the gender one needs in order to find love, satisfaction and fulfillment in one's life partner. The sexual activity is nothing more than an expression of this, just as it is for heterosexuals.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#799937 - 03/20/04 12:14 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Go back and re-read, J.A.

You are confused some more. [/b]
Well, I did as you suggested, Jolly. I re-read it. I cannot find one line that indicates the child in the skit is gay. What I find, though, is an entire song about a male enjoying wearing female clothing. In short, a transvestite -- most of whom are heterosexual.
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You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#799938 - 03/20/04 12:25 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
Happened to us several times when we lived in San Francisco. Fisherman's Wharf, the Presidio, other tourist trap areas where particularly weird gays would congregate to wave at people and just hang out (so to speak).

For example: One day, we were walking across the Golden Gate Bridge, two "men" saw us coming (me/wife/6 yr. old/2 yr. old). They turned sideways to somewhat block us from walking, then started passionately kissing and stroking each other while we were forced to watch. This display lasted for maybe 10-15 seconds, then they walked by, laughing.

How did I handle it? What did I say to my wife and kids?

Wait. . . First, let me ask people here in addition to bcarey:

How would YOU handle it?

[/b]
If I had to handle it at all, I would have made some comment that such intense physical interaction should be done in private and then dropped it.

To me, what these men did was inappropriate -- and it would have been just as inappropriate if a man and woman had done it. To me, the problem was not two men, the problem was doing something in front of others that is meant to be done in a more private situation.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#799939 - 03/20/04 12:55 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Sounds sensible enough to me.
_________________________
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#799940 - 03/20/04 01:30 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
lucy in the sky_dup1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 508
Loc: NYC
Larry--

A most gentle query: Why do you feel that the intent of these lyrics are to "indoctrinate" children to become homosexual? Could this not just be humor? When Allegra was younger, she loved walking around in my high heels and wearing her daddy's undershirt as a "gown." While you've mostly likely never tried it, provided that one has feet that can take it, walking in high heels can be fun. Occasionally, I slip on a pair of stilettos, and I love being eye-to-eye with the guys during intermission at the opera! It gives me an entirely new perspective on things. Could not a little boy like to "stand up" to his parents?
_________________________
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#799941 - 03/20/04 04:39 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
PhJ. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 170
Loc: Brussels
 Quote:
Originally posted by lucy in the sky:
Larry--

A most gentle query: Why do you feel that the intent of these lyrics are to "indoctrinate" children to become homosexual? Could this not just be humor? [/b]
I'm not Larry, but...

So let them say I?m like a girl!
What?s wrong with being like a girl?!
And let them jump and jeer and whirl?
They are the swine, I am the pearl!
And let them laugh and let them scream!
They?ll be beheaded when I?m queen!
When I rule the world! When I rule the world!
When I rule the world, in my mommy?s high heels!


...I'm not too sure about the humor thing.

While I don't think you can 'indoctrinate' someone into being gay (a gay friend told me that in kindergarten he fell in love with other boys, not girls, like I did), I wouldn't want my 5y old exposed to things like

"And let them jump and jeer and whirl?
They are the swine, I am the pearl![/b]
And let them laugh and let them scream!
They?ll be beheaded when I?m queen![/b] "
presented as humor in high heels.

I really fail to see how this is teaching respect.

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#799942 - 03/20/04 05:20 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by LadyElton:
****ING...I'm a dyke [/b]
Two mutually exclusive things being presented here. \:D [/b]
\:D \:D

I'll have to read through this entire thread when I get the chance!
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#799943 - 03/20/04 09:13 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Toddler2 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/04
Posts: 760
Loc: Hillsborough, NC
 Quote:
One thing that makes me barf is how quickly people say, “ Why, I have two friends, or cousins, who are gay. . .”
Kenny,

I wasn't trying to be a name dropper if that was directed at me. Just trying to demonstrate why the stereotypes bothered me personally.

Ariel,

You did clarify things a lot. I wonder if you placing a higher value on traditional roles than I do is due to your being a single mother of boys (that was you, right?) Maybe I'm less traditional because being only 1/2 the parental team is so much easier than being all of it. Hat's off to you.

Lastly,

Someone educate me. Isn't a "queen" a homosexual transvestite reference? Or is it just a transvestite reference?

Todd
_________________________
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#799944 - 03/20/04 10:06 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Matt G.:
Define "lured". [/b]
Happy to do so.

When a homosexual paints their lifestyle as "normal", or even better than the heterosexual norm, and induces a child to immerse himself within that lifestyle.[/b]
"Lured" involves some sort of reward, which has not been demonstrated. And to even consider that anyone, no matter how militant, considers homosexuality better than heterosexuality, belies your complete ignorance of the subject. You really don't know[/b] any homosexuals, do you? Are you really of the opinion that there is some cadre of homosexuals out there subverting the minds of children to induct them into the (as you blithely spit out) "lifestyle" of homosexuality? Sorry, it doesn't exist. It doesn't need[/b] to exist.

Let's get one thing completely clear here. There is absolutely no excuse for any adult, gay or straight, to prey upon children for sexual activity. Period. Children do not have the mental or emotional capacity to understand the implications of sexual activity.

That said, though, there is[/b] an age at which children do become aware of sexual matters in a mostly adult sense. And at this age, kids start to become more clearly aware of whether they are attracted to the same or the opposite sex (or both). This is all spontaneously generated, needing no induction, coercion, argument or rationale from anyone else. It really just is what it is, and isn't influenced by any cultural or social factors.

What happens next, however, is a matter of pure socialization. A child that feels homosexual tendencies at that age who lives within a society that is highly intolerant of homosexual behavior will most likely hide any outward manifestation of his or her sexual attraction. Some may become so concerned that others will find out that they become über-macho or über-feminine, sometimes even more so than their otherwise straight counterparts. For others, the choice is to display an outward indifference to sexual matters so as not to raise any suspicions. And for yet another portion, the internalized loathing of their own homosexual attraction puts them into attack mode against other homosexuals, as if by externalizing the attraction and destroying it they can sublimate their own desires.

Any of these types can and do take opposite-sex spouses, have children and raise families, as they have since the dawn of time. Nobody "knows" they're homosexual except for the anonymous partners that such people pick up for sexual encounters. These people are the stock and trade of many a gay bar (hence the term "trade"), and form nearly the entire clientele base for gay and transvestite protitutes.

But, woe betide the child who for reasons of personal integrity refuses to hide behind a mask of heterosexual "normalness" in such a society. He or she will likely be ostracized by family, church and friends. And, usually, the younger the child, the more vehement the denouncement. What happens to these kids? They run away from home in an attempt to escape the torment, often only to find a netherworld of drugs and sex that will chew them up and spit them out. Or, some choose a take a more radical approach and kill themselves in a last-ditch effort to gain some peace.

Obviously, none of the scenarios presented above are "beneficial to society" for any number of reasons: loveless, trustless marriages, deception, violence, death, etc. But this is how things will remain until such time as society as a whole, and, perhaps even more importantly, we as individuals can learn to accept homosexuality as just another part of the human condition and not something revolting.
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Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#799945 - 03/20/04 10:16 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
 Quote:
Originally posted by rvaga:
What benefit does legal protection guarantee...if the majority starts to hate those protected by law? ...
Hets concern: [/b]
Rvaga, speak for yourself and not the rest of us "Hets".

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

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#799946 - 03/20/04 10:18 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTest:
Its funny how parents talk about their kids like they are property![/b]
They are our responsibility. There's a difference.
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"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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#799947 - 03/20/04 10:28 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#799948 - 03/20/04 11:22 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
However, as is exemplified within this thread, the gay community is crying out for an affirmation of normalcy, and I am not going to acquiesce to that demand.[/b]
Then you and people of the same mindset will bear the blame for the societal ills caused by the continued antipathy towards homosexuality. That, unlike homosexuality, IS a choice. Repressing homosexulity won't make it go away, nor will your religious beliefs (or anyone else's), parental love or rebuke, role models, social pressure, etc., you name it. You can live in your fantasy land where homosexuality is some induced behavior that can be controlled by early conditioning. But, guess what, it doesn't work. Children will be homosexuals regardless. There are millions that are living proof.

And, speaking of presumptuousness, this comment of yours is completely off the scale on the presume-o-meter:
 Quote:
Sorry old son, my children are a far cry from gay,
Oh really? Have you had someone watch every single move they make, have you had their thoughts monitored, and had all of this reported back to you? Read my previous comments about outward appearances. You're living in a fantasy of denial if you think your kids couldn't even possibly be homosexual. The truth is, you do not, in fact, know. Lots of gay folks I know were brought up in good, God-fearing Baptist households, with "normal" mothers and fathers, and with a well-developed sense of values that they still hold to. But they're still gay.

The story of your gay subordinate is feckless, abd using it as some sort of proof of your "compassion" is disingenuous. And your condescension regarding my or anyone else's sexual activities is noted. Frankly, I wasn't aware that anyone needed or wanted your permission to engage in any activities whatsoever. Sheesh.
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#799949 - 03/20/04 11:26 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by lucy in the sky:
Larry--

A most gentle query: Why do you feel that the intent of these lyrics are to "indoctrinate" children to become homosexual? Could this not just be humor? When Allegra was younger, she loved walking around in my high heels and wearing her daddy's undershirt as a "gown." While you've mostly likely never tried it, provided that one has feet that can take it, walking in high heels can be fun. Occasionally, I slip on a pair of stilettos, and I love being eye-to-eye with the guys during intermission at the opera! It gives me an entirely new perspective on things. Could not a little boy like to "stand up" to his parents? [/b]
I think you are misunderstanding me. I am amazed at what has happened in this thread - it doesn't matter what your opinion is of homosexuality, there is no excuse for *any* kind of "tolerance training" that has sexual overtones, even in the slightest, from *any* direction - to K-6 kids. No, I did not say that exposing small children to this will "make them homosexuals". I said it will make them act out things that may go too far, and that it can result in behavior that can scar them for life. Kids this age are highly susceptible to suggestion as well, and they don't need to have the gravity of such issues places on things they aren't even ready to deal with yet. Some of you want to believe there is no agenda - if that is the case, then at the very least, there is a lot of stark and utter stupidity regarding children involved by those who are promoting this crap. Personally, I think if you put aside your *own* (a "group" you) prejudices and agendas and simply look at the lyrics you will see a clear agenda to indoctrinate, but I'll leave that alone for now and address what I'm addressing.

Yes Lucy, I know that kids will play in their parent's shoes and clothes. I have raised 9 children - I think I know at this point what is involved in raising children. My boys have, as small kids, put on their mother's high heels and walked around in them in the house. Things like that are natural - they aren't doing it as a sexual experiment, nor are they doing it with any weighty thinking on their part about sexual preferences, or the need to be tolerant. They are doing it because it is something to do that seems fun at the time. Mommy wears shoes that make her taller, I'm a little kid, I love Mommy, I think it would be fun to put them on and walk around in the house. I've had daughters put on *my* shoes and drag them around on their feet. I've had my sons put on my shoes, and I've had daughers put on their mother's shoes. Sexuality, heavy social thought is not involved. They aren't trying to shape their future sexual identities by doing it, they are simply playing.

But - sit a 7 year old down and tell him that some of the other boys in school may want to dress up like his mother, and may grow up to want to be the "mommy" in a "mommy and daddy" set, and you've given him too much information. Now you've burdened him with things he isn't even ready to have to deal with yet, and the result can be scary and confusing for many of them.

All of the concern by those who think this is just fine seems to be aimed only at those who might grow up to be homosexual. What about the 98% of them that *won't* grow up to be homosexual? What about the little kid who goes home, who is destined to be straight, who is now burdened with two thoughts - one, I just learned more about sex than I'm ready to process, and two: oh no..... I was playing around with Mommy's shoes and makeup just last week.... am I going to be attracted to boys? Is there something wrong with me? Now, in your attempt at help one you've harmed another.

Kids will, by nature, experiment, act out things, act *on* things, as they develop. Much of their role playing is innocent fun, and it should be left that way. Many issues should be left alone, and dealt with individually, as the issue arises. Someone said "what about the parents who aren't capable of teaching this stuff to their children?" This is just one more example of how far off course we are as a society, how adrift we have become as a result of decades of this kind of social engineering. Many have lost sight of the fact that part of being a parent is *learning* how to handle these things. One of the biggest reasons so many parents *aren't* capable of handling things like this is because society tries to do so much for them already. Parents should be left alone to teach things like this to their own children. You are robbing them of some tremendous learning experiences, some extremely valuable human experiences with their children when you try to do their job for them. Sure, some will stumble. Some won't learn at all. Life isn't perfect.

But the fact remains, a school's job is to teach your child how to read, write, and do math. Later on you add things like history, geography, literature. It is *not* the job of the school, or society at large, to teach children about anything else. That is the parent's job, and for better or worse, those issues should be left up to parents to teach. At some point, once the child has reached an age where these things are actually now an issue with them, *then* you can talk to them about tolerance for the differences that have manifested themselves among them.

Try this one: a group comes to your kid's school, goes into the kindergarten classroom, and does a play on schizophrenics. The objective is to teach your child that there are some people out there who, through no fault of their own, are crazy. Some of these crazy people can be dangerous, but they don't mean to be, and they should be treated with respect, and not be made fun of. No, I'm not drawing any parallels. No, I'm not calling homosexuals crazy, or dangerous. What I *am* doing is showing you yet another issue that isn't even an issue to these kids yet, that they have no questions about, and that has no agenda attached to it, but that you have now introduced more questions than answers to the group, and scared a lot of kids for no reason.

If you want to teach tolerance, direct your educational efforts properly. Teach parents how to parent. Don't teach them *what* to instill in their children - that's *their* decision. Just teach them how. Teach them not to be bigots, or homophobes, or fanatics. Teach them how to talk to their children, teach them the importance of being involved in their children's lives, and how to be involved in their children's lives.

But get your social engineering out of the classroom. Get your agenda driven programs out of the classrooms of children too young to process it all. I'm sorry, but to teach a 6 year old about "queens" being superior to regular boys, and use dead animals and things like that the way they are used in this song, is sick. It is agenda driven, and it is misguided. The sugar coating being applied to this kind of activity, the rationalization of this kind of "education", is hollow. I will say it again, as the parent of 9 children - leave our children alone. Let the parents handle these issues with their own children, as the situation arises, at the proper point in time in each child's life. A bunny rabbit with a stick of dynamite up its ass is still a cute, furry little ball of sweetness if you don't recognize the dangers.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#799950 - 03/20/04 11:31 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Good post, Matt.

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#799951 - 03/20/04 11:32 AM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
thanks for your time Larry.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#799952 - 03/20/04 12:02 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by Larry: there is no excuse for *any* kind of "tolerance training" that has sexual overtones, even in the slightest, from *any* direction - to K-6 kids. [/b]
That just about sums it up. Good post Larry.

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#799953 - 03/20/04 12:08 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Ve Vill not tolerate your intolerance. You must be educated. To do this, you vill go to our reeducation camps.........
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#799954 - 03/20/04 12:13 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
Ve Vill not tolerate your intolerance. You must be educated. To do this, you vill go to our reeducation camps......... [/b]
Who knows? Maybe the intolerant on here will enjoy the bath houses (oops! I mean reeducation camps!)

Considering the nature of the threads on here the past few weeks, they really do seem to be obsessed with homosexual behavior. One wonders where this obsession comes from and how much time they spend fantasizing (I mean, thinking) about it.

\:D
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#799955 - 03/20/04 12:25 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Your problem JA, is you don't seem to understand just who it is that is intolerant.

Your post was, as I expect from you, stupid, condescending, off the mark, and insulting.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#799956 - 03/20/04 01:40 PM Re: Has your K-6 grade kid had cootie shots yet?
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
To associate homosexuality with pedophilia is dangerous, inaccurate and unfair. [/b]
Then please explain why NAMBLA is allowed to march in "gay" pride parades in New York, San Francisco and Boston under its own NAMBLA banner. And why NAMBLA is a member of New York's council of Lesbian and Gay Organizations and the International Gay Association. [/b]
And in anticipation of your reply, Ariel:

A few years ago the The International Lesbian & Gay Association (ILGA) circulated an anti-pedophilia pledge and demanded that all member organizations sign it, but then withdrew the requirement after over half refused to do so.

In all fairness the ILGA did eventually rescind NAMBLA's member status because they interfered with ILGA's political goals, one of which is U.N. approval. But ILGA's history shows why this was a political move, because prior to that the ILGA urged member organizations to lobby their governments to abolish the age of consent laws.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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