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#800983 - 03/01/05 01:32 PM Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
[emphasis mine]

by Elizabeth Weill-Greenberg
The Amsterdam News [US]
February 23rd, 2005

The military spends about $3 billion each year to convince young people that enlistment will give them college money, job training and an alternative to working at McDonald's.

In the wake of the growing conflict in Iraq, which has resulted in over a thousand U.S. casualties, the military has become more aggressive in scouting out high school students willing and able to serve.

In many New York City public schools that are predominantly Black and Latino, military recruiters are a heavy presence, promising young people financial security and a fulfilling career. Recruiters roam the halls, set up tables and even pull students out of class.

But in recent months, a group of teenagers and anti-war veterans have been canvassing the neighborhoods where the recruiters frequent, hoping to convince students to consider other options.

''We've heard everything up to and including having a desk in the guidance counselor's office,'' said Amy Wagner of Youth Activists-Youth Allies (YaYas), a group that focuses on counter-recruitment. ''When the kid comes in to talk to the counselor about college, before the kid can get there, they've got somebody in their face saying, 'You want to go to college? How are you going to pay for college?'''

New York City organizers are educating people about alternatives to enlisting and the realities of military life. Vietnam veterans and anti-war activists Jim Murphy and Dayl Wise visit high schools, where they recount for the students stories about their time in the service.

In one class of juniors at West Side High School, Murphy told them that before the service he spent time making money playing seven-card stud. Once he left community college, he was drafted.
''I wasn't smart enough to have fear about it,'' Murphy told the class. ''I didn't have a clue.''

Wise, who was in the infantry, didn't want to go to war when he was drafted. His father offered to help send him to Canada.
''I took the easy way out by reporting for duty,'' he said. ''It takes a braver person. I let it happen to me? I didn't have a plan. I gave up control.''

He warned the students: ''Please have a plan. Don't let others make plans for you.''

The YaYas, staffed almost entirely by high school students of color, work to make sure young people avoid falling into military service because it seems like the only option for advancement.

''It's either jail or the military,'' said Jeannel Bishop, a senior at Brooklyn's South Shore High School and a YaYas staffer. Many students at her school think enlistment is the best they can accomplish.

When Navy recruiters visited her school recently, students were allowed to leave class to visit with them. Bishop brought pamphlets and confronted the recruiters about their assurances of tuition and training. She pointed out to them and other students nearby that getting college money was a much more complicated and uncertain process.

''I was taking over their whole show,'' Bishop said. ''[The recruiters] were amazed.''

Three students who had been ''pumped up about the military'' had second thoughts after Bishop spoke. It took just a little information for them to have doubts, she said.

Besides speaking out in their own schools, the YaYas hold workshops for teenagers and make presentations to PTAs. They encourage students to post literature in the guidance office and set up counter-recruitment tables next to military recruiters. Most importantly, they want young people to make an informed choice, Wagner said.

For instance, most students don't know that:

- Two-thirds of recruits don't get any college money, according to the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors.

- Most people in the military do not have time to attend college while in the service.

- To qualify for college money recruits have to pay $100 per month for a year.

- The unemployment rate for veterans is three times higher than the national average.

- People who sign up with the Delayed Entry Program are told they can't change their minds, but getting out is as simple as writing a letter.

- The enlistment contract is for eight years.

- There are other ways to finance college, like federal financial aid, private scholarships, going to community college or joining AmeriCorps.

But educating youth is not just about these facts and figures, Wagner said. The war in Iraq makes their work much more urgent, she said.

''They're still telling people you can go to Germany, Japan, but the reality is the vast majority are going to Iraq,'' Wagner said. ''You risk losing life and limb; you risk being a murderer.[/b]''

Giving young people a complete picture of enlisting rests on the courage and initiative of activists, guidance counselors and principals. Often, the recruiters' sales pitches, brochures and posters go unchallenged.

Many educators fear principals will retaliate if they speak out, Wagner said. Some schools are reticent to limit the military's presence because they think they will lose federal funding, she said.

No Child Left Behind, the educational policy touted by the Bush administration, requires that recruiters and college representatives have equal access to students. This is often misinterpreted as unlimited access. Policy on recruiter access in New York City public schools is determined school by school and varies widely.

But some school districts have taken a more active role and regulate recruiters' visits. In Madison, Wisconsin, recruiters are only permitted to be in each high school three days during the school year. Their policy states that guidance counselors can distribute both military and counter-recruitment information.

There is also no uniform, enforced policy in New York City governing opt-out forms, which let students choose whether to release their personal information to recruiters. Many principals, Wagner said, are not even aware of the opt-out form. Some schools give out the form, without any explanation and make no effort to collect it from students, she said.

Wagner said some students think that signing the forms will mean their information is not released to any institutions, including colleges. Other students, often immigrants, fear they will get in trouble for signing, she said.

Currently, New York City students are often only given the opt-out form in the ninth grade, Wagner said. Because recruiters ask for eleventh- and twelfth-grade lists, schools should send out the forms each year, she said.

In Montclair, New Jersey, the high school sends a fact sheet with the opt-out form. Tenth-graders who have not returned the forms are called. If the form is still not turned in, it will be passed out the following year.

Activists have discussed working on a New York City Council resolution to require schools to collect the forms from every student. Members of the YaYas and the New York Civil Liberties Union have met with the Department of Education (DOE) to discuss putting together an information packet for principals about opt-out. Wagner said the DOE was receptive. Calls to the DOE were not returned.

Local counter-recruiters also plan to make use of the recent Third Circuit Court's ruling that Yale Law School, which has a non-discrimination policy, can ban recruiters from its campus without risk of losing federal funding, because the military discriminates against gays.

However, without the help of the Department of Education or the City Council, counter-recruiters' efforts can only go so far. This frustration is evident in veteran Dayl Wise when he said that giving presentations, classroom by classroom, is like ''throwing grains of sand on the beach.''

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#800984 - 03/01/05 01:37 PM Re: Intelligent
Nuaetvoaw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 77
Loc: The South
I agree with your post yahoo, I think that we need to bomb N. Korea next, after Iran of course.

The more glory for America, the better!
_________________________
"He with whom neither slander that gradually soaks into the mind, nor statements that startle like a wound in the flesh, is successful and may be called intelligent indeed. ." -Confucius

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#800985 - 03/01/05 01:47 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I would like to forward this along to my nephew who is in the Marine Corps and a few others I know in other branches of service. All have been or are now currently serving in Iraq. Might you have an email address they can get back to you on for comment? A telephone number or street address would be just super.

Thanx.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800986 - 03/01/05 01:48 PM Re: Intelligent
Kentcouncil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Great Lakes
I actually support the counter-recruiters. Of course, under-privileged kids should be aware of all their life options. I would be interested to know what alternatives the counter-recruiters offer, though, aside from their anti-military bias. The article did not try to make that clear.

The fact remains that for most underprivileged high-school kids, the military offers a viable path for career and education advancement.

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#800987 - 03/01/05 02:01 PM Re: Intelligent
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kentcouncil:

The fact remains that for most underprivileged high-school kids, the military offers a viable path for career and education advancement. [/b]
From what I read and hear, throngs of those kids that have ended up in Iraq are seriously doubting the decision and as they return (along with the "daed" and the "demiam") and recount their experiences, I'd be surprised if the number of willing enlistees doesn't drop dramatically. But, if you want to be a nation at war, you've got to fill the ranks from somewhere. Draft anybody?

Edit: Sheesh, I have my cyber sitter software turned off, yet the words "daed" and "demiam"(spelled backwards) were editted out.

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#800988 - 03/01/05 02:02 PM Re: Intelligent
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I applaud the counter-recruiters.

BTW, where does that picture come from? It is not part of the story at The Amsterdam News.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#800989 - 03/01/05 02:08 PM Re: Intelligent
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Bernard, I followed the link, and it's from the story as reproduced here:

Babylon News

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#800990 - 03/01/05 02:13 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
I'm happy that the young people are considering the moral implications of the military, instead of solely rejecting the military only by their fear of their physical well-being. Perhaps there is hope for the US.

I removed the picture since it wasn't from the original news source.

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#800991 - 03/01/05 02:16 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
I removed the picture since it wasn't from the original news source. [/b]
I think I'll put it back:



I think it speaks volumes about who you people really are.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800992 - 03/01/05 02:19 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
'You People'?

I do like that picture, JBryan. I didn't wish to twist the orignal author's intent by embedding the picture with the article.

Thanks for reposting.

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#800993 - 03/01/05 02:19 PM Re: Intelligent
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
yhabpo,

You lost me with the picture. As much as I agree with some of what is in the article, I have to consider that it's not exactly pertinent to life in the USA, coming from Amsterdam.

While I some of the information rings true, I do believe there is some misinformation contained in it.

It's hard to take what you say seriously with a post like this.

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#800994 - 03/01/05 02:21 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
'You People'?[/b]
'You people' as in brain dead anti-war types.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800995 - 03/01/05 02:25 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
I have to consider that it's not exactly pertinent to life in the USA, coming from Amsterdam.
Why would the location of the author matter in any sense?

 Quote:
'You people' as in brain dead anti-war types.
Keep beating your war drum, JBryan. Are you part of the 'service'?

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#800996 - 03/01/05 02:26 PM Re: Intelligent
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
yhabpo,

You lost me with the picture. As much as I agree with some of what is in the article, I have to consider that it's not exactly pertinent to life in the USA, coming from Amsterdam.

While I some of the information rings true, I do believe there is some misinformation contained in it.

It's hard to take what you say seriously with a post like this. [/b]
Bcarey, the article comes the Amsterdam News, which is in New York City. Their mission: "To serve as an unwavering voice of the Black constituency." Here's a blurb,

About Amersterdam News

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#800997 - 03/01/05 02:31 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
From what I read and hear, throngs of those kids that have ended up in Iraq are seriously doubting the decision and as they return (along with the "daed" and the "demiam") and recount their experiences, I'd be surprised if the number of willing enlistees doesn't drop dramatically. But, if you want to be a nation at war, you've got to fill the ranks from somewhere. Draft anybody?[/b]
I don't know where you are reading and hearing about these "throngs". I think that is just wishful thinking on your part. Most of what I hear from those I know who have been there is that the overwhelming majority of them are proud of what they are doing and are supportive of the mission. I suppose you would always have your odd malcontents, however.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800998 - 03/01/05 02:35 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Most of what I hear from those I know who have been there is that the overwhelming majority of them are proud of what they are doing and are supportive of the mission.
It takes a brave one to speak against their brainwashed peers and to admit the senselessness of their mission.

To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea.

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#800999 - 03/01/05 02:40 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
It takes a brave one to speak against their brainwashed peers and to admit the senselessness of their mission.[/b]
So, if they are against the war they are brave and if they support it they are brainwashed. Sounds like rather self-serving logic to me.

 Quote:
To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea. [/b]
Not long ago you were supportive of their program of enforced haircuts. Have you become disenchanted with them now? Did you get your haircut as I suggested (down to the shoulders)? I would have to ask, you know, since there probably would be no other way to tell.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#801000 - 03/01/05 02:42 PM Re: Intelligent
seebechstein Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1085
Loc: houston
I think children who are becoming adults and planning their careers should be given all sufficient and relevant information regarding all possibilities, even the military. For some it may be the best option.

But I also think the recruiters are deceptive which is wrong. They should be up-front and honest regarding the benefits and the recruit should get all promises made in writing.

If it was up to me: the recruit, after serving 4 years in the military, would have a free four-year college ride courtesy of Uncle Sam at ANY school he/she was accepted to. That means if she's Harvard material and she gets in on the merit of her application, the government may be out about an eighth of a million dollars to get this kid through college.

In many countries, military service after high school is mandatory.

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#801001 - 03/01/05 02:49 PM Re: Intelligent
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
JBryan wrote...
 Quote:
I think it speaks volumes about who you people really are.
 Quote:
'You people' as in brain dead anti-war types.
Speaks volumes about JBraindead, oops, I mean JBryan.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#801002 - 03/01/05 02:50 PM Re: Intelligent
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
[QUOTE]
To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea. [/b]
I agree Stalinism is a pretty nasty system. Too bad Che was more inclined towards Stalinism/Maoism than Trotskyism. Agreed?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#801003 - 03/01/05 02:50 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Not long ago you were supportive of their program of enforced haircuts.
Yes, that's is a good idea. I just wish Kim wasn't completely insane.

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#801004 - 03/01/05 02:54 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
[QUOTE]
To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea. [/b]
I agree Stalinism is a pretty nasty system. Too bad Che was more inclined towards Stalinism/Maoism than Trotskyism. Agreed? [/b]
Che stayed quite clear of NK, as far as I know. Are you bored, Rennie?


"Juche" is a joke and the North Korean state is an embarrassment to an idealogy associated to it. If the two leaders weren't so completely unintelligent, my attitude might be altered.

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#801005 - 03/01/05 03:05 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I think all the people who think like Yahoo does should be drafted, sent to the middle east, and put out in the middle of the highway in a terrorist stronghold with no weapons.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801006 - 03/01/05 03:07 PM Re: Intelligent
markallen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 460
Loc: Stanwood, WA
Hey Larry, I wish you'd stop beating around the bush and just tell us how you REALLY feel!!! ;\) ;\)
_________________________
Mark

New sig line in the works....

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#801007 - 03/01/05 03:08 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
You too, Larry?

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#801008 - 03/01/05 03:09 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Ok..... I think people who think the way Yahoo thinks should be shot so the rest of the world is relieved of the burden of having them taking up space.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801009 - 03/01/05 03:41 PM Re: Intelligent
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
[QUOTE]Che stayed quite clear of NK, as far as I know. Are you bored, Rennie?


"Juche" is a joke and the North Korean state is an embarrassment to an idealogy associated to it. If the two leaders weren't so completely unintelligent, my attitude might be altered. [/b]
Not bored but just trying to sort out exactly where you are coming from. You see, I know you are not a Muslim, as some here have suggested- if you were you would not have referred to yourself as an atheist or even a nihilist. Perhaps a cynic.

Anyhow, I agree *Juche* is just a NK spin on the Stalinist cult of personality schtick. Also Che pretty much ignored NK as he did Hoxha's Albania for similar reasons. It appears that he was more taken with the more poetic and self-destructive aspects of Maoism. Trotskyism likewise, was far too dry and intellectual for his activist tastes.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#801010 - 03/01/05 04:17 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
The "self-reliance" bit of Juche dooms the economy, especially if the out-dated concept of autarky is fixed in the constitution.
If we were to believe the few journalists who manages to report from NK, the masses won't be taking part in any major revolution any time soon. Perhaps we could hope for NK's self-destruction by the land invasion of Japan that II-sung has, amusingly, threatened to do.

Do you have good things to say about Castro?
His dissuasion of a personally cult and a partially sound economic plan is quite desirable.

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#801011 - 03/01/05 04:20 PM Re: Intelligent
Nuaetvoaw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 77
Loc: The South
yahoo, you smell like cheese.
_________________________
"He with whom neither slander that gradually soaks into the mind, nor statements that startle like a wound in the flesh, is successful and may be called intelligent indeed. ." -Confucius

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#801012 - 03/01/05 04:33 PM Re: Intelligent
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Actually I do have some limited experience with Cuba through technical assistance programs in oil and gas production & environmental mangement. CUPET (Cuban Petroleum) is very receptive and open to introducing sound environmental management practices and policies for heavy oil development despite limited funds. All our engineers praise the CUPET staff for their professionalism and ingenuity. I would actually like to do more with CIDA in Cuba and plan to go to Ottawa at the beginning of April to look at that as well as a project in Bolivia with an Aboriginal Association there. As a Canadian my attitude towards Cuba is runs quite contrary to what maybe the accepted norm in this forum.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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