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#800983 - 03/01/05 01:32 PM Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
[emphasis mine]

by Elizabeth Weill-Greenberg
The Amsterdam News [US]
February 23rd, 2005

The military spends about $3 billion each year to convince young people that enlistment will give them college money, job training and an alternative to working at McDonald's.

In the wake of the growing conflict in Iraq, which has resulted in over a thousand U.S. casualties, the military has become more aggressive in scouting out high school students willing and able to serve.

In many New York City public schools that are predominantly Black and Latino, military recruiters are a heavy presence, promising young people financial security and a fulfilling career. Recruiters roam the halls, set up tables and even pull students out of class.

But in recent months, a group of teenagers and anti-war veterans have been canvassing the neighborhoods where the recruiters frequent, hoping to convince students to consider other options.

''We've heard everything up to and including having a desk in the guidance counselor's office,'' said Amy Wagner of Youth Activists-Youth Allies (YaYas), a group that focuses on counter-recruitment. ''When the kid comes in to talk to the counselor about college, before the kid can get there, they've got somebody in their face saying, 'You want to go to college? How are you going to pay for college?'''

New York City organizers are educating people about alternatives to enlisting and the realities of military life. Vietnam veterans and anti-war activists Jim Murphy and Dayl Wise visit high schools, where they recount for the students stories about their time in the service.

In one class of juniors at West Side High School, Murphy told them that before the service he spent time making money playing seven-card stud. Once he left community college, he was drafted.
''I wasn't smart enough to have fear about it,'' Murphy told the class. ''I didn't have a clue.''

Wise, who was in the infantry, didn't want to go to war when he was drafted. His father offered to help send him to Canada.
''I took the easy way out by reporting for duty,'' he said. ''It takes a braver person. I let it happen to me? I didn't have a plan. I gave up control.''

He warned the students: ''Please have a plan. Don't let others make plans for you.''

The YaYas, staffed almost entirely by high school students of color, work to make sure young people avoid falling into military service because it seems like the only option for advancement.

''It's either jail or the military,'' said Jeannel Bishop, a senior at Brooklyn's South Shore High School and a YaYas staffer. Many students at her school think enlistment is the best they can accomplish.

When Navy recruiters visited her school recently, students were allowed to leave class to visit with them. Bishop brought pamphlets and confronted the recruiters about their assurances of tuition and training. She pointed out to them and other students nearby that getting college money was a much more complicated and uncertain process.

''I was taking over their whole show,'' Bishop said. ''[The recruiters] were amazed.''

Three students who had been ''pumped up about the military'' had second thoughts after Bishop spoke. It took just a little information for them to have doubts, she said.

Besides speaking out in their own schools, the YaYas hold workshops for teenagers and make presentations to PTAs. They encourage students to post literature in the guidance office and set up counter-recruitment tables next to military recruiters. Most importantly, they want young people to make an informed choice, Wagner said.

For instance, most students don't know that:

- Two-thirds of recruits don't get any college money, according to the Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors.

- Most people in the military do not have time to attend college while in the service.

- To qualify for college money recruits have to pay $100 per month for a year.

- The unemployment rate for veterans is three times higher than the national average.

- People who sign up with the Delayed Entry Program are told they can't change their minds, but getting out is as simple as writing a letter.

- The enlistment contract is for eight years.

- There are other ways to finance college, like federal financial aid, private scholarships, going to community college or joining AmeriCorps.

But educating youth is not just about these facts and figures, Wagner said. The war in Iraq makes their work much more urgent, she said.

''They're still telling people you can go to Germany, Japan, but the reality is the vast majority are going to Iraq,'' Wagner said. ''You risk losing life and limb; you risk being a murderer.[/b]''

Giving young people a complete picture of enlisting rests on the courage and initiative of activists, guidance counselors and principals. Often, the recruiters' sales pitches, brochures and posters go unchallenged.

Many educators fear principals will retaliate if they speak out, Wagner said. Some schools are reticent to limit the military's presence because they think they will lose federal funding, she said.

No Child Left Behind, the educational policy touted by the Bush administration, requires that recruiters and college representatives have equal access to students. This is often misinterpreted as unlimited access. Policy on recruiter access in New York City public schools is determined school by school and varies widely.

But some school districts have taken a more active role and regulate recruiters' visits. In Madison, Wisconsin, recruiters are only permitted to be in each high school three days during the school year. Their policy states that guidance counselors can distribute both military and counter-recruitment information.

There is also no uniform, enforced policy in New York City governing opt-out forms, which let students choose whether to release their personal information to recruiters. Many principals, Wagner said, are not even aware of the opt-out form. Some schools give out the form, without any explanation and make no effort to collect it from students, she said.

Wagner said some students think that signing the forms will mean their information is not released to any institutions, including colleges. Other students, often immigrants, fear they will get in trouble for signing, she said.

Currently, New York City students are often only given the opt-out form in the ninth grade, Wagner said. Because recruiters ask for eleventh- and twelfth-grade lists, schools should send out the forms each year, she said.

In Montclair, New Jersey, the high school sends a fact sheet with the opt-out form. Tenth-graders who have not returned the forms are called. If the form is still not turned in, it will be passed out the following year.

Activists have discussed working on a New York City Council resolution to require schools to collect the forms from every student. Members of the YaYas and the New York Civil Liberties Union have met with the Department of Education (DOE) to discuss putting together an information packet for principals about opt-out. Wagner said the DOE was receptive. Calls to the DOE were not returned.

Local counter-recruiters also plan to make use of the recent Third Circuit Court's ruling that Yale Law School, which has a non-discrimination policy, can ban recruiters from its campus without risk of losing federal funding, because the military discriminates against gays.

However, without the help of the Department of Education or the City Council, counter-recruiters' efforts can only go so far. This frustration is evident in veteran Dayl Wise when he said that giving presentations, classroom by classroom, is like ''throwing grains of sand on the beach.''

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#800984 - 03/01/05 01:37 PM Re: Intelligent
Nuaetvoaw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 77
Loc: The South
I agree with your post yahoo, I think that we need to bomb N. Korea next, after Iran of course.

The more glory for America, the better!
_________________________
"He with whom neither slander that gradually soaks into the mind, nor statements that startle like a wound in the flesh, is successful and may be called intelligent indeed. ." -Confucius

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#800985 - 03/01/05 01:47 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I would like to forward this along to my nephew who is in the Marine Corps and a few others I know in other branches of service. All have been or are now currently serving in Iraq. Might you have an email address they can get back to you on for comment? A telephone number or street address would be just super.

Thanx.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800986 - 03/01/05 01:48 PM Re: Intelligent
Kentcouncil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Great Lakes
I actually support the counter-recruiters. Of course, under-privileged kids should be aware of all their life options. I would be interested to know what alternatives the counter-recruiters offer, though, aside from their anti-military bias. The article did not try to make that clear.

The fact remains that for most underprivileged high-school kids, the military offers a viable path for career and education advancement.

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#800987 - 03/01/05 02:01 PM Re: Intelligent
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kentcouncil:

The fact remains that for most underprivileged high-school kids, the military offers a viable path for career and education advancement. [/b]
From what I read and hear, throngs of those kids that have ended up in Iraq are seriously doubting the decision and as they return (along with the "daed" and the "demiam") and recount their experiences, I'd be surprised if the number of willing enlistees doesn't drop dramatically. But, if you want to be a nation at war, you've got to fill the ranks from somewhere. Draft anybody?

Edit: Sheesh, I have my cyber sitter software turned off, yet the words "daed" and "demiam"(spelled backwards) were editted out.

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#800988 - 03/01/05 02:02 PM Re: Intelligent
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
I applaud the counter-recruiters.

BTW, where does that picture come from? It is not part of the story at The Amsterdam News.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#800989 - 03/01/05 02:08 PM Re: Intelligent
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Bernard, I followed the link, and it's from the story as reproduced here:

Babylon News

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#800990 - 03/01/05 02:13 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
I'm happy that the young people are considering the moral implications of the military, instead of solely rejecting the military only by their fear of their physical well-being. Perhaps there is hope for the US.

I removed the picture since it wasn't from the original news source.

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#800991 - 03/01/05 02:16 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
I removed the picture since it wasn't from the original news source. [/b]
I think I'll put it back:



I think it speaks volumes about who you people really are.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800992 - 03/01/05 02:19 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
'You People'?

I do like that picture, JBryan. I didn't wish to twist the orignal author's intent by embedding the picture with the article.

Thanks for reposting.

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#800993 - 03/01/05 02:19 PM Re: Intelligent
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
yhabpo,

You lost me with the picture. As much as I agree with some of what is in the article, I have to consider that it's not exactly pertinent to life in the USA, coming from Amsterdam.

While I some of the information rings true, I do believe there is some misinformation contained in it.

It's hard to take what you say seriously with a post like this.

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#800994 - 03/01/05 02:21 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
'You People'?[/b]
'You people' as in brain dead anti-war types.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800995 - 03/01/05 02:25 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
I have to consider that it's not exactly pertinent to life in the USA, coming from Amsterdam.
Why would the location of the author matter in any sense?

 Quote:
'You people' as in brain dead anti-war types.
Keep beating your war drum, JBryan. Are you part of the 'service'?

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#800996 - 03/01/05 02:26 PM Re: Intelligent
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
yhabpo,

You lost me with the picture. As much as I agree with some of what is in the article, I have to consider that it's not exactly pertinent to life in the USA, coming from Amsterdam.

While I some of the information rings true, I do believe there is some misinformation contained in it.

It's hard to take what you say seriously with a post like this. [/b]
Bcarey, the article comes the Amsterdam News, which is in New York City. Their mission: "To serve as an unwavering voice of the Black constituency." Here's a blurb,

About Amersterdam News

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#800997 - 03/01/05 02:31 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
From what I read and hear, throngs of those kids that have ended up in Iraq are seriously doubting the decision and as they return (along with the "daed" and the "demiam") and recount their experiences, I'd be surprised if the number of willing enlistees doesn't drop dramatically. But, if you want to be a nation at war, you've got to fill the ranks from somewhere. Draft anybody?[/b]
I don't know where you are reading and hearing about these "throngs". I think that is just wishful thinking on your part. Most of what I hear from those I know who have been there is that the overwhelming majority of them are proud of what they are doing and are supportive of the mission. I suppose you would always have your odd malcontents, however.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#800998 - 03/01/05 02:35 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Most of what I hear from those I know who have been there is that the overwhelming majority of them are proud of what they are doing and are supportive of the mission.
It takes a brave one to speak against their brainwashed peers and to admit the senselessness of their mission.

To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea.

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#800999 - 03/01/05 02:40 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
It takes a brave one to speak against their brainwashed peers and to admit the senselessness of their mission.[/b]
So, if they are against the war they are brave and if they support it they are brainwashed. Sounds like rather self-serving logic to me.

 Quote:
To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea. [/b]
Not long ago you were supportive of their program of enforced haircuts. Have you become disenchanted with them now? Did you get your haircut as I suggested (down to the shoulders)? I would have to ask, you know, since there probably would be no other way to tell.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#801000 - 03/01/05 02:42 PM Re: Intelligent
seebechstein Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 1085
Loc: houston
I think children who are becoming adults and planning their careers should be given all sufficient and relevant information regarding all possibilities, even the military. For some it may be the best option.

But I also think the recruiters are deceptive which is wrong. They should be up-front and honest regarding the benefits and the recruit should get all promises made in writing.

If it was up to me: the recruit, after serving 4 years in the military, would have a free four-year college ride courtesy of Uncle Sam at ANY school he/she was accepted to. That means if she's Harvard material and she gets in on the merit of her application, the government may be out about an eighth of a million dollars to get this kid through college.

In many countries, military service after high school is mandatory.

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#801001 - 03/01/05 02:49 PM Re: Intelligent
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
JBryan wrote...
 Quote:
I think it speaks volumes about who you people really are.
 Quote:
'You people' as in brain dead anti-war types.
Speaks volumes about JBraindead, oops, I mean JBryan.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#801002 - 03/01/05 02:50 PM Re: Intelligent
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
[QUOTE]
To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea. [/b]
I agree Stalinism is a pretty nasty system. Too bad Che was more inclined towards Stalinism/Maoism than Trotskyism. Agreed?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#801003 - 03/01/05 02:50 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Not long ago you were supportive of their program of enforced haircuts.
Yes, that's is a good idea. I just wish Kim wasn't completely insane.

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#801004 - 03/01/05 02:54 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
[QUOTE]
To be truthful, I might have partly supported an aggressive move against North Korea. [/b]
I agree Stalinism is a pretty nasty system. Too bad Che was more inclined towards Stalinism/Maoism than Trotskyism. Agreed? [/b]
Che stayed quite clear of NK, as far as I know. Are you bored, Rennie?


"Juche" is a joke and the North Korean state is an embarrassment to an idealogy associated to it. If the two leaders weren't so completely unintelligent, my attitude might be altered.

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#801005 - 03/01/05 03:05 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I think all the people who think like Yahoo does should be drafted, sent to the middle east, and put out in the middle of the highway in a terrorist stronghold with no weapons.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801006 - 03/01/05 03:07 PM Re: Intelligent
markallen Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 460
Loc: Stanwood, WA
Hey Larry, I wish you'd stop beating around the bush and just tell us how you REALLY feel!!! ;\) ;\)
_________________________
Mark

New sig line in the works....

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#801007 - 03/01/05 03:08 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
You too, Larry?

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#801008 - 03/01/05 03:09 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Ok..... I think people who think the way Yahoo thinks should be shot so the rest of the world is relieved of the burden of having them taking up space.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801009 - 03/01/05 03:41 PM Re: Intelligent
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
[QUOTE]Che stayed quite clear of NK, as far as I know. Are you bored, Rennie?


"Juche" is a joke and the North Korean state is an embarrassment to an idealogy associated to it. If the two leaders weren't so completely unintelligent, my attitude might be altered. [/b]
Not bored but just trying to sort out exactly where you are coming from. You see, I know you are not a Muslim, as some here have suggested- if you were you would not have referred to yourself as an atheist or even a nihilist. Perhaps a cynic.

Anyhow, I agree *Juche* is just a NK spin on the Stalinist cult of personality schtick. Also Che pretty much ignored NK as he did Hoxha's Albania for similar reasons. It appears that he was more taken with the more poetic and self-destructive aspects of Maoism. Trotskyism likewise, was far too dry and intellectual for his activist tastes.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#801010 - 03/01/05 04:17 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
The "self-reliance" bit of Juche dooms the economy, especially if the out-dated concept of autarky is fixed in the constitution.
If we were to believe the few journalists who manages to report from NK, the masses won't be taking part in any major revolution any time soon. Perhaps we could hope for NK's self-destruction by the land invasion of Japan that II-sung has, amusingly, threatened to do.

Do you have good things to say about Castro?
His dissuasion of a personally cult and a partially sound economic plan is quite desirable.

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#801011 - 03/01/05 04:20 PM Re: Intelligent
Nuaetvoaw Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 77
Loc: The South
yahoo, you smell like cheese.
_________________________
"He with whom neither slander that gradually soaks into the mind, nor statements that startle like a wound in the flesh, is successful and may be called intelligent indeed. ." -Confucius

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#801012 - 03/01/05 04:33 PM Re: Intelligent
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Actually I do have some limited experience with Cuba through technical assistance programs in oil and gas production & environmental mangement. CUPET (Cuban Petroleum) is very receptive and open to introducing sound environmental management practices and policies for heavy oil development despite limited funds. All our engineers praise the CUPET staff for their professionalism and ingenuity. I would actually like to do more with CIDA in Cuba and plan to go to Ottawa at the beginning of April to look at that as well as a project in Bolivia with an Aboriginal Association there. As a Canadian my attitude towards Cuba is runs quite contrary to what maybe the accepted norm in this forum.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#801013 - 03/01/05 04:33 PM Re: Intelligent
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Bernard:
JBryan wrote...
 Quote:
I think it speaks volumes about who you people really are.
 Quote:
'You people' as in brain dead anti-war types.
Speaks volumes about JBraindead, oops, I mean JBryan. [/b]
I take from this that you support the sentiment expressed in the picture.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#801014 - 03/01/05 04:51 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
Disregarding Chretian's trouble with Cuba, I'd believe most Canadians have goodwill towards Cuba, continued from Trudeau.

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#801015 - 03/01/05 05:10 PM Re: Intelligent
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Ok..... I think people who think the way Yahoo thinks should be shot so the rest of the world is relieved of the burden of having them taking up space. [/b]
.... or, as an alternative, perhaps they should be launched & taken up to space \:D
.... or, perhaps they come from space, and should be returned to their homeland \:D

(Really folks ... most Canadians are not like Yhabpo ... )

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#801016 - 03/01/05 05:37 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
OPEN LETTER TO ALL SOLDIERS IN THE US LED COALITION AGAINST TERRORISM

I would like to thank you from the bottom of my heart for having the strength of character, wisdom, and guts to volunteer and make the sacrifices you have and are making to defend our freedoms. I'd also like to offer the same depth of thanks to your wives, husbands, mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters, who patiently wait for you, proud one and all of you for the work you are doing. ALL of you are heros, and the world owes each and every one of you their full gratitude and respect.

Never mind the mental midgets and morons who line up to detract from what you are doing. Idiots like them have always been with us. I just want you to know that they are in the minority, and that most of us can see the importance of what you are doing.

And we can see that you are WINNING.

Everything they've whined about has been proven wrong. They said you couldn't do it, but you did. They said the people wouldn't want it, but they do. Everything they have predicted has proven to be wrong.

The desire for democracy is growing strong, and the people are taking to the streets demanding it, all across the Middle East. The government of Lebanon has fallen to the people. Egypt is planning free elections. Saudi Arabia is beginning to see the handwriting on the wall, and in other countries in the region, the people are watching. They watched the Iraqi people who were told that if they voted they would be killed, turn out by the millions and vote anyway. They want that for themselves - and some have already begun to take a stand, emboldened by what they have seen happening in Afghanistan and Iraq. Things that happened because YOU had the strength of character and wisdom to put your life on the line to make it happen.

YOU made that possible. YOU risked your lives daily, some among you gave your lives to do it, in spite of the ignorant bleating of the antiwar crowd, those hand wringing, whining, enablers of the enemy, too shortsighted because of either their political leanings or simply because they don't have the intelligence to see beyond their noses. In spite of them, you did it. You are winning.

Many of us, me included, were unable to go fight beside you. But we went with you in spirit. We might be too old to fight beside you, but we STAND beside you, and I just wanted to let you know that we will take care of these whining idiots back home. You keep doing what you're doing, and leave these morons to us.


Arabs See Beginning of New Era

By DONNA ABU-NASR
Associated Press Writer

March 1, 2005, 3:16 PM EST

KHOBAR, Saudi Arabia -- It was a scene the Arab world's autocratic regimes have dreaded -- and through the power of satellite TV, it could catch on as fast as the latest hit music video: Peaceful, enormous crowds carrying flags and flowers bringing down a government.

What happened in Lebanon this week, analysts say, is the beginning of a new era in the Middle East, one in which popular demand pushes the momentum for democracy and people's will can no longer be disregarded.

Television stations broadcast Beirut's protests live into homes, coffee shops and clubs across the Middle East, with the dramatic images of Lebanese youths wearing red-and-white scarves and waving the country's red, white and green flag as they handed out roses Monday to troops who had been ordered to block them. The coverage, lasting all day with hardly a break on some stations, culminated with the Syrian-backed government's resignation.

Inevitably, it raised the question among many spectators: What about here?

"I wish this could happen in Yemen," Ahmed Murtada, an unemployed Yemeni, said in San'a. "But here, tanks would prevail."

Anas Khashoggi, a 46-year-old management consultant in the Saudi city of Jiddah, said he followed Monday's events from beginning to end. "I wanted ... to see how the government reacts to the will of the people," he said.

Was he disappointed? "Not at all," he said.

The scenes from Lebanon come as Saudis are having their first -- albeit small -- taste of democracy. In the second round of the country's first nationwide elections ever, Saudi men go to the polls Thursday in the kingdom's east and south to choose municipal councils. The monarchy has been promising reform, but going slowly.

Newspapers in Saudi Arabia and Egypt -- authoritarian nations where the state heavily influences the press -- did not shy away from showing the protests.

"The Lebanese street joins the opposition," read the banner headline across the front page of the Saudi daily Okaz, along with photos of the Lebanese protest tents and a banner in Arabic reading, "We want the truth."

In Syria, however, the state-controlled media was largely silent. It reported on the resignation of Prime Minister Omar Karami but did not mention -- much less show pictures -- of the protests. State TV aired none of the dramatic footage the few Syrians with satellite dishes could see with a flick of the channel.

Syria has kept a firm hand on its small reform movement. But it had a rare instance of civil violence last year, when riots in March between Kurds and police spread to parts of northeastern Syria and killed at least 25 people in unrest sparked by a soccer brawl but fueled by Kurdish resentment.

"What happened in Lebanon conforms with our hopes for every Arab country," said Michel Kilo, a Syrian intellectual. "It was a rehearsal for a peaceful popular movement that unfolded right before our eyes."

The protests in Lebanon -- triggered by the assassination of the popular former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri on Feb. 14 -- come on the heels of a string of democratic steps in the Arab world, including elections in Iraq and by the Palestinians, and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's promise to allow multi-candidate presidential elections.

But the forcing out of Lebanon's government sets a very different precedent in a region where freedom of speech is muzzled, human rights activists are jailed and sons either succeed or are being groomed to succeed their fathers.

"For the first time in the history of the Arab world, a country's policy has come face-to-face with the will of the people who went down to the street and said: 'We don't want you,'" said Dalal al-Bizri, a Cairo-based Lebanese sociologist.

"The minimum feeling among Arab masses now will be: 'Are the Lebanese better than us?'" she said.

Many may be wary of where the people spirit takes Lebanon. If the protests drag the country into civil war or prompt a fierce Syrian response, as some critics have warned, bloodshed could scare off others.

Also, Lebanon's uniqueness in the region could lessen the events' impact. Its 3.5-million people belong to 17 sects, with large Christian and Shiite communities. Its press is the freest in the Middle East. Its issues are with external domination from Syria, not a domestic government, and the protests resulted from the explosive trigger of Hariri's murder.

Still, with television making people power visible to all, "it's a phenomenon that will catch on the way music video clips have caught on," said al-Bizri.

It may not spread quickly, however. Sherine Bilal, a 19-year-old Egyptian student, was wary of the limits imposed in her country, where protests are usually restricted to university campuses.

"Here, if we try to demonstrate, we can only do it inside these walls," Bilal said from at the American University in Cairo. "Even then, it's only about certain things."

But Dawood al-Shirian, a Saudi talk show host on Dubai TV, had a warning for Arab governments, pointing to Ukraine's Orange Revolution: "Either they embrace the orange, or they will find themselves slipping on the peels of bananas."

Copyright © 2005, The Associated Press
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801017 - 03/01/05 05:42 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
*That* is what I think of you Yahoo, you ignorant moron. Intelligence my eye. You don't deserve the air you get to breathe.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801018 - 03/01/05 06:01 PM Re: Intelligent
Xenon Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/19/04
Posts: 138
I didn't find any mention of the US or its troops and their effect on the the Lebanese situation in that Associated Press article. The situation there is still pretty delicate, many want Hezbollah to join the in the leadership of the revolution.

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#801019 - 03/01/05 07:57 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
Are you that proud of installing a puppet government, Larry? Are you proud of the media and political censorship? Are you proud of the billions of dollars that was stolen from the Iraqi people? Are you proud that the Iraqi will have to rely on American monopolies to supply their basic necessities?

http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html

Old article, but I'll post in new thread.

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#801020 - 03/01/05 09:32 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
We didn't install a "puppet government", you idiot. In case you hadn't heard, the Iraqi people recently voted. *They* picked their government.

Media and political censorship? You *dare* talk about that when it is *your* half assed media that won't report the *good* things that are happening. Idiots like you soak their brains in the agenda driven leftist crap you just linked to, and never see the reality of things.

Billions of dollars stolen from the Iraqi people? Who was stealing it before we went in, idiot? We haven't stolen any of their money. Only an idiot would even begin to believe that. The US has *forgiven* most if not all of their country's debt, we have pushed other countries to do the same, and we have spent billions of dollars working to help them.

Dependent on "American monopolies"? What a fool you are. You claim to be intelligent, and you're nothing more than another conspiracy theorist idiot. You don't have a clue what's happening over there, because you get all your information from a propaganda machine.

Stick to something you know, scooter. Like firewood....
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801021 - 03/01/05 09:43 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Media and political censorship? You *dare* talk about that when it is *your* half assed media that won't report the *good* things that are happening. Idiots like you soak their brains in the agenda driven leftist crap you just linked to, and never see the reality of things.
A democratic government that bans certain parties? Not even Neo-Nazis were banned from the German parliament, Larry. A free country that bans a major media outlet?

What exactly is my 'half assed' media, anways?

 Quote:
we have spent billions of dollars working to help them.
No Larry, my shortsighted fool. Billions were spent helping American contractors, whose primarily interest was in themselves, not the Iraqi people.

Go till a farm, Larry.

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#801022 - 03/01/05 09:48 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I don't have to til my farm, Yahoo. That kind of work is done by people who aren't intelligent enough to do anything else. People like you, for instance.

No Larry, my shortsighted fool. Billions were spent helping American contractors, whose primarily interest was in themselves, not the Iraqi people.[/b]

This is a prime example of why you are, and will always be, an idiot. I'd explain it to you, but you aren't capable of understanding it.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801023 - 03/01/05 09:53 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
Here Larry,

[So many american flags makes me sick]

Pay some respect to the misguided people who have died as a direct result of your ignorance.

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#801024 - 03/01/05 10:01 PM Re: Intelligent
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
yhabpo, Maybe you should show them some respect.

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#801025 - 03/01/05 10:06 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489

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#801026 - 03/01/05 10:15 PM Re: Intelligent
Mr. E Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/22/05
Posts: 426
No one wants to read any more links to retarded biased articles by some fruitcake idiot. Go away.

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#801027 - 03/01/05 11:20 PM Re: Intelligent
Kentcouncil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Great Lakes
Originally posted by kathyk:
From what I read and hear, throngs of those kids that have ended up in Iraq are seriously doubting the decision and as they return (along with the "daed" and the "demiam") and recount their experiences, I'd be surprised if the number of willing enlistees doesn't drop dramatically.

Possibly. But I recently heard a report (on NPR of all places) on Wisconsin soldiers serving in Iraq, who were enthusiastic and proud of their mission there.

I, in turn, was proud of them.

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#801028 - 03/01/05 11:30 PM Re: Intelligent
Kentcouncil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/18/04
Posts: 371
Loc: Great Lakes
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
Don\'t Support Our Troops [/b]
Ted Rall's piece is pretty awful. He states that Iraq never attacked or threatened the United States, completely ignoring Iraq's actions during the First Gulf War, Hussein's discussions with al Qaeda, and Hussein's plans to assassinate Bush the Elder. He also completely ignores the recent successful elections in Iraq. In short, the article reeks of rather desperate spin.

You and Ted are gonna have to do better than that, yhapbo. :rolleyes:

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#801029 - 03/02/05 03:02 AM Re: Intelligent
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
[QUOTE]Also Che pretty much ignored NK as he did Hoxha's Albania for similar reasons. It appears that he was more taken with the more poetic and self-destructive aspects of Maoism. Trotskyism likewise, was far too dry and intellectual for his activist tastes. [/b]
The Taibo biography says that Che was getting into Trotsky's writings toward the end of his life, and was even denounced in Moscow as being a "Trotskyist" (as well as pro-Chinese). I would agree though that he was more caught up in the romance of Maoism, (such as it was).
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#801030 - 03/02/05 07:49 AM Re: Intelligent
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
I have read the same in Jorge Castaneda's Campanero, the Life and Death of Che Guevara. Primarily an activist, Che was clearly disillusioned by the Moscow party line post missle crisis and naturally gravitated towards the more revolutionary and populist aspects of Maoism. It is no surprise therefore that eventually the anti-Moscow aspects of Trotskyism and Parvus' Permanent Revolution would have attracted his attention. A logical reaction to Soviet orthodoxy and duplicity.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#801031 - 03/02/05 08:01 AM Re: Intelligent
jon-nyc Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 2022
Loc: the left bank -- of the east r...
Good point. The Castaneda bio was great, by the way. I'm a big Castaneda fan.

His book and the Taibo bio came out the same month - (30th anniversary of Che's murder). Both really good reads.
_________________________
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?

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#801032 - 03/02/05 01:20 PM Re: Intelligent
MLT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 356
Larry,

I know you mean well but you shouldnít compare plow drivers to yhabpo. Itís rude to plow drivers, some of who work very hard. Judging from his sloppy halfhearted arguments (when he/she actually makes one), yhabpo doesnít know a lot about hard work, or any work for that matter.

Somebody insinuated he/she is from Canada. They have generous social welfare programs up there and he/she is probably a result of some of those. My wife who is Canadian would not like to be related or associated in any way with him/her.

Back to the issue at hand, I see nothing wrong with those groups trying to provide a different take on military life. The people swayed by them probably would not do very well in the military anyway. Itís a life that requires discipline, hard work, pride and respect for tradition, and of course, some good *** kicking every now and then. One has a hard time imagining people swayed by teary eyed whiners being a very good match. In that sense, they are providing a good service.

Kirk

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#801033 - 03/02/05 02:14 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I still think people like that ought to be forced into the military to make men out of them. Even the women - they aren't of any use as a woman anyway.....
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#801034 - 03/02/05 02:43 PM Re: Intelligent
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
I would be overjoyed to see you brutally reeducated into a model citizen, Larry.

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#801035 - 03/02/05 03:01 PM Re: Intelligent
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I'd just enjoy getting to see the man up to the job, Yahoo.......
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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