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#804996 - 08/20/04 02:37 PM The American Image Just Got Worse
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Military doctors falsifying death certificates to cover up torture homicides; reviving torture victims so they can be tortured some more.

All in a day's work:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20040819_2547.html?CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

It's called "winning hearts and minds". (Wait til the rest of the Abu Ghraib pictures surface. Republican Congressmen say there is much, much worse yet to come.)

Rumsfeld takes "total and complete responsibility." I'm not sure clemency should be considered an option under the circumstances. He has two defenses: he was just "following orders". Unlikely. Or "he just didn't know." Both defenses were tried and rejected at Nuremberg.

I don't believe in capital punishment.

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#804997 - 08/20/04 03:24 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
TomtheTuner Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/29/01
Posts: 806
Loc: Melbourne, Florida USA
That is really a load of Crap
_________________________
Maker of the TCHAMMER
www.thomasccobble.com

BUSY IS BETTER THAN BORED

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#804998 - 08/20/04 03:56 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
This is horrible IF it is true.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#804999 - 08/20/04 04:02 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Well, you're a doc, so I assume you rely upon the truthfulness and peer-reviewed nature of Lancet? (I work in public health; I know I do.)

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#805000 - 08/20/04 04:05 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
Yeah, Lancet is a reputable source. That's what scares me about this report.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#805001 - 08/20/04 07:07 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
Here's more details form this morning's LA Times.

Ethics Violations by Medical Staff at Abu Ghraib Alleged[/b]
A bioethicist says official documents show that the U.S. personnel failed to protect inmates.
By Thomas H. Maugh II, Times Staff Writer

U.S. military medical personnel grossly violated medical ethics at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, helping to design interrogation techniques, turning their backs on abuse by guards, failing to protect the rights of detainees and hiding evidence of abuse, a Minnesota bioethicist charges in today's issue of the journal Lancet.

Some even went so far as to revive prisoners for further torture and falsify death certificates of prisoners who died during interrogation, according to official documents examined by Steven H. Miles of the University of Minnesota.

The failings of the medical staff are perhaps even more disturbing than the abuses by guards, Miles said Thursday. "Medical personnel are the first and last bulwark against human rights abuses," he said. "It is up to physicians and medics to intervene" to protect prisoners. Not only did they not intervene at Abu Ghraib, but they also participated in the abuse.

Their "offenses do not merely fall short of medical ideals; some constitute grave breaches of international or U.S. law," Miles wrote.

In an editorial accompanying the article, journal editors said the events at Abu Ghraib should serve as a "wake-up call for the Western world to rediscover and live by the values enshrined in its international treaties and democratic constitutions."

About two dozen military intelligence soldiers and civilian contractors will be implicated in the abuses at Abu Ghraib, but no physicians or other medical personnel. Unnamed military officials Thursday told Associated Press, however, that medical personnel who knew of the abuse or participated will be charged.

Miles, who examined media reports and the records of official government inquiries, noted that several of the government reports had not yet been released.

The crucial shortcomings of medical personnel, he said, included failure to maintain medical records, conduct routine medical examinations and provide proper care for disabled or injured prisoners. Medical personnel and information were also used to devise and implement psychologically and physically coercive interrogations. Death certificates and medical records were falsified.

The article noted that in November 2003, Iraqi Maj. Gen. Abed Hamed Mowhoush suffocated after interrogators slid him into a sleeping bag and a guard sat on his chest. A prison surgeon stated that he died of natural causes. Only after news media coverage did the Pentagon revise the death certificate to show the cause of death as "homicide" due to "blunt force injuries and asphyxia."

In another case, a beaten prisoner died after guards tied him to the top of his cell door and gagged him. The death certificate stated that he died of "natural causes … during his sleep."

Other problems noted by Miles included a physician who allowed untrained guards to suture a prisoner's wounds and a medic who inserted an IV tube into the corpse of a prisoner to make it appear that he had been receiving medical treatment.

An Army spokesman did not deny the incidents cited by Miles. He pointed out to Associated Press that most of Miles' examples came from military inquiries and were being investigated.

Miles agreed that the personnel involved should receive both professional and military sanctions, but he argued that that would not be enough. "We really have to move from sanctions to reform," he said.

Among possible solutions, he said, are better training of medical personnel and better reporting mechanisms.

External oversight also needs to be improved, he added. The International Committee of the Red Cross provides some oversight, he said, but when its staffers reported problems two years ago, they were shut out of the prison.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#805002 - 08/20/04 09:16 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
International war criminals. That's who Nuremberg laws were made for.

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#805003 - 08/20/04 10:02 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
ny1911 Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2238
Loc: New York
The only thing that is unusual here is the media's access to the hell of war.
_________________________
So live your life and live it well.
There's not much left of me to tell.
I just got back up each time I fell.

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#805004 - 08/20/04 10:14 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
JoeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 671
Loc: Northern California
I think David O'Gwynn has made 2 good points here: First Miles works for the Soros foundation and second the only actual fact in the article is that the military is investigating these allegations. (Sorry about the formatting in the quote - the indented Q/A format didn't copy)

from http://sparsepundit.blogspot.com/
 Quote:
Joy of Media Fisking
So, I check Google. I see this article. I say, wow, what a bastard the Shrub is:

Some U.S. military doctors in Iraq and Afghanistan betrayed their duty to patients by participating in and covering up the abuse of prisoners, a report in the British journal Lancet argues.

Written by Dr. Steven Miles, a bioethicist at a U.S. university, the article calls for an urgent investigation to assess the extent to which U.S. military doctors, nurses and medics abandoned the “moral obligations” of their profession.
I spend 10 seconds doing further Googling, and what do I find?

[Dr. Steven Miles] has received major grants from the Soros Foundation Faculty Scholarship Program for the Project Death in America...
Good grief. Couldn't they at least make it difficult? I feel like I've just won the Pulitzer for breathing.

UPDATE (8/20/04): Understand, this comment-fisking is only put on the front page to clear some valid issues up.

-- So, Dr. Miles is making this all up because in the past he received grants from the Soros Foundation--

Uh, no. He received major grants from the Soros Foundation. Read the links. And besides, you missed the point. The point is not that Dr. Miles is "making this all up," but that his objectivity is questionable, being so closely linked to a partisan organization and to the Clinton Whitehouse. And yet, The Globe and Mail doesn't seem to think this is worthy of mentioning. They sure will lead a story critical of the military with his findings, though.

--(and as we all know, everyone who receives a grant from any institute agrees with that institution whole-heartedly)--

No, but those that wish to remain in the good graces of a foundation (and thus be eligible for further funding) are at least somewhat beholden to that foundation's wishes. There is also generally a sympathetic attitude on the part of the grantee towards the overall goals of the grantor. Why would Dr. Miles seek major funding from the Soros Foundation, and why would the Soros Foundation grant major funding to him, if the two didn't share some common goals? George Soros has frequently stated that he will do whatever it takes to see Bush defeated. So, when Dr. Miles begins making these kinds of accusations:

In his harsh submission to Lancet, Dr. Miles criticizes the inaction of medical staff who did not report abuses but also charges that, in a far worse transgression, "the [military] medical system collaborated with designing and implementing psychologically and physically coercive interrogations."
I am forced to wonder why The Globe fails to mention Miles' connection to Soros. Dr. Miles is obviously implying that systemic military policy is responsible for the actions at Abu Gharib, thus he is helping to build a political siege-tower to Bush. This is clearly in line with the goals of the Soros Foundation. If they can't defeat Bush in November, they'll try to impeach him, and Soros has plenty of money to get the job done.

I would say that, while Dr. Miles certainly has a voice worth hearing on the subject, the Globe and Mail readers have a right to know about his apparent conflict of interest in the matter.

despite the fact that the Pentagon itself is investigating these doctors, nurses and medics
This being the only meat of the story. Why Dr. Miles' opinion-piece in the Lancet needed top feed in a news story is a question best left to political pundits. But then, why are political pundits required to discern the motivations of a news organization?

-- but the CEO of DieBold and problems with voting machines are due only to mistake and not to any connection to the RNC. Gotcha.--

Got what, exactly? The two aren't even similar, except that both instances exhibit some semblance of partisan behavior.

In the case of DieBold, the CEO made a partisan statement, in public and was promptly excoriated for it, both by the political community and within DieBold itself. The fact remains that there is no evidence of any wrongdoing on the part of DieBold. Was O'Dell inappropriate in his comments to Ohio Republicans? You bet. I don't imagine he'll survive much longer as a figurehead for DieBold.

In the case of Dr. Miles, his clear connections to Soros are completely ignored by the writer of what is ostensibly a news piece. His implications are taken at face value and given the full weight of objective analysis.

Was O'Dell a fool for doing what he did? Obviously. DieBold is still trying to recover from the credibility hit it took because of his actions. Is Dr. Miles rendered irrelevant by his connections to Soros? Obviously not. That was never implied by what I wrote. Look at the title: "Joy of Media Fisking." I wasn't fisking Dr. Miles. His analysis is valid enough, but his connections to Soros should be provided to allow the readers to understand the political context of his analysis.

--I love double standards, they make annoying everyone into giving up an argument so much easier. --

I agree. So, why is it that you think that O'Dell's inappropriate behavior is grounds for proclaiming DieBold to be responsible for election defraudment, but Dr. Miles' connections to Soros are irrelevant to his implications of top-down (Bush-mandated) torture policies?
_________________________
"How, Monsieur, you care not for music? You do not play the clavecin? I am sorry for you! You are indeed condemming yourself to a dull old age!" - Fouquet

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#805005 - 08/21/04 08:18 AM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Do you take meds, JoeB? The meds you take are considered useful for your condition because they are PEER-REVIEWED. You do know what that means, right?

It means that other physicians, without any pecuniary interest, and acting on behalf of a journal independent of government or industry funding or interference. Doctors paid by pharmaceutical companies do studies to check the efficacy of drugs manufactured by their sponsors all the time. That's not surprising. But Peer Review means that physicians independent of the source have to review the data and conclusions before it gets published. And Lancet is among the oldest and most respected peer review journals in the world.

Don't take my word for it - ask johnmoonlight. Or simply ask your doctor.

If you don't believe 'em, I suggest you stop taking your meds.

Yup. War criminals. Get used to it. Wait til the rest of the pictures come out.

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#805006 - 08/21/04 08:55 AM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
JoeB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/03
Posts: 671
Loc: Northern California
Shant- Go to Miles original article http://www.thelancet.com/journal/journal.isa and read the actual article. Skip over the polemics and concentrate only on facts (peer reviewed facts?). It's a very short read if you do.
_________________________
"How, Monsieur, you care not for music? You do not play the clavecin? I am sorry for you! You are indeed condemming yourself to a dull old age!" - Fouquet

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#805007 - 08/21/04 09:06 AM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:


Yup. War criminals. Get used to it. Wait til the rest of the pictures come out. [/b]
shant,

You've been saying this kind of stuff for a while--so far all we've seen FOR SURE is some very bad behavior on the part of some American soldiers. (Putting underpants on someone's head is not Nuremburg material.)

I have an open mind, but I'm waiting.

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#805008 - 08/21/04 09:06 AM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Shantinik raises a valid issue. There would seem to be credible evidence that these doctors behaved unethically. Committed war crimes if you will. Shantinik Is always quick to raise any issue where he thinks war crimes have been committed and he is generally right in that they have been committed, as they have in every war. Such matters should be vigorously investigated and prosecuted wherever evidence supports it. On that I am sure that he and I would agree. Where we part company is that when he raises these issues it is in an attempt to portray these incidents as widespread or endemic. A matter of standard operating procedure. He has said in so many words that you will be living next door to a war criminal when little Johnny comes home from Iraq.

Showing evidence of his first step in his journey (that war crimes have been committed) does not take him anywhere near his second step (that they are widespread or endemic) and no matter how much he tries to sling mud at the wall he is not one step closer to surmounting it. We still have yet to see any evidence that these acts were approved or not discouraged at the highest levels. Furthermore, Shantinik's attempts to portray all members of our active military as war criminals based on the acts of a few betrays his real attitude toward the military as at odds with what he constantly pretends.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#805009 - 08/21/04 11:58 AM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
Jolly Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14039
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
Do you take meds, JoeB? The meds you take are considered useful for your condition because they are PEER-REVIEWED. You do know what that means, right?

It means that other physicians, without any pecuniary interest, and acting on behalf of a journal independent of government or industry funding or interference. Doctors paid by pharmaceutical companies do studies to check the efficacy of drugs manufactured by their sponsors all the time. That's not surprising. But Peer Review means that physicians independent of the source have to review the data and conclusions before it gets published. And Lancet is among the oldest and most respected peer review journals in the world.

Don't take my word for it - ask johnmoonlight. Or simply ask your doctor.

If you don't believe 'em, I suggest you stop taking your meds.

Yup. War criminals. Get used to it. Wait til the rest of the pictures come out. [/b]
Pure, unadulerated, bovine scat.

Go read the "peer reviewed" piece. It ain't.

What it is, is an ethics piece, with a thin veil of facts, and several well-placed conjunctions, that make it appear that unsubstantiated rumor is fact.

If someone wrote a piece like this for a new mitral valve procedure, they'd be laughed at.
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#805010 - 08/21/04 12:11 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Shantinik raises a valid issue. There would seem to be credible evidence that these doctors behaved unethically. Committed war crimes if you will. Shantinik Is always quick to raise any issue where he thinks war crimes have been committed and he is generally right in that they have been committed, as they have in every war. Such matters should be vigorously investigated and prosecuted wherever evidence supports it. [/b]
I agree. I saw mention of this report elsewhere and reacted with a mix of disgust and unsurprise.
Whatever Shant's aims, I am not so sure that the picture emerging isn't one of a widespread problem. I don't know that I'd say it is "coordinated" or planned..But the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan (which unfortunately have dropped, like bin Laden, off most folks radar) suggest a rather archipelago of abuse. The attempts by some wingnuts (Hannity, Limbaugh, and others who take their marching order from 'em) only add, imo, to the problem and do nothing to solve the problem.

N.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#805011 - 08/21/04 12:13 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shantinik:
[qb] What it is, is an ethics piece, with a thin veil of facts, and several well-placed conjunctions, that make it appear that unsubstantiated rumor is fact.

If someone wrote a piece like this for a new mitral valve procedure, they'd be laughed at. [/b]
Pure wingnuttery.

Or perhaps you can set aside the snark and offer up a more meaningful reply to the article.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#805012 - 08/21/04 12:26 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
Jolly Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14039
Loc: Louisiana
It doesn't deserve one.

Much of the opinion piece (and that's what it is) is based upon "reliable reports" - the author's words, not mine - and therefore cannot at this time be substantiated.
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#805013 - 08/21/04 12:28 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
It doesn't deserve one.

Much of the opinion piece (and that's what it is) is based upon "reliable reports" - the author's words, not mine - and therefore cannot at this time be substantiated. [/b]
Yea.. I thought you'd you bail out..

Nice try. Spin harder.
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#805014 - 08/21/04 12:43 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
Jolly Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14039
Loc: Louisiana
No spin.

If anything, the article is full of it.

Look at the bibliography. Please point out to me where it cites the facts that doctors falsified post-mortems, or altered medical records.

The article, once again, is an opinion piece about medical ethics, and is not peer reviewed literature - not as peer reviewed literature is normally perceived.

Rather than shoot your mouth off, why don't you try explaining to me why I should take this article as nothing more than a puff piece?
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#805015 - 08/21/04 01:11 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
No spin.

If anything, the article is full of it.

Look at the bibliography. Please point out to me where it cites the facts that doctors falsified post-mortems, or altered medical records.

The article, once again, is an opinion piece about medical ethics, and is not peer reviewed literature - not as peer reviewed literature is normally perceived.

Rather than shoot your mouth off, why don't you try explaining to me why I should take this article as nothing more than a puff piece? [/b]
Cute, but still nonsense that does nothing to veil your knee jerk dismissal. Pathetic.

These are not entirely "new" revelations. There have been previous reports of role of medical staff in Iraq torture scandals reported elsewhere: New England Journal of Medicene; USA Today, Washington Post, and as well the role of medical staff in the scandal is part the various on-going military investigations.

Why should it concern anyone. For starters, I'd say this gets it about right: "To understand the full scope of American torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib and other prisons, we need to look more closely at the behavior of doctors and other medical personnel, as well as at the pressures created by the war in Iraq that produced this behavior. It is possible that some doctors, nurses, or medics took steps, of which we are not yet aware, to oppose the torture. It is certain that many more did not. But all those involved could nonetheless reveal, in valuable medical detail, much of what actually took place. By speaking out, they would take an important step toward reclaiming their role as healers. "

:p
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#805016 - 08/21/04 01:25 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
Jolly Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14039
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
These are not entirely "new" revelations. There have been previous reports of role of medical staff in Iraq torture scandals reported elsewhere: New England Journal of Medicene; USA Today, Washington Post, and as well the role of medical staff in the scandal is part the various on-going military investigations.
Link, or quote, please.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#805017 - 08/21/04 01:26 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
These are not entirely "new" revelations. There have been previous reports of role of medical staff in Iraq torture scandals reported elsewhere: New England Journal of Medicene; USA Today, Washington Post, and as well the role of medical staff in the scandal is part the various on-going military investigations.
Link, or quote, please. [/b]
I thought you read the article? ???

Oh right...
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#805018 - 08/21/04 02:22 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Jolly,

The changing of a death certificate from it's original death by natural causes to that of a homocide after an investigation, has already been widely published. I'm not sure if it occurred in Afghanistan, or Iraq.

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#805019 - 08/21/04 03:09 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
Jolly is right for scrutinizing the article. IF the claims are correct this is tragic. The Lancet is a pretty good source but you still have to take a critical look at where the information is coming from. Time will tell. I sure hope that some of this has been greatly exaggerated.
Does anyone know where the doctors ranked compared to the others involved?
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#805020 - 08/21/04 03:13 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
Jolly Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14039
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
Jolly,

The changing of a death certificate from it's original death by natural causes to that of a homocide after an investigation, has already been widely published. I'm not sure if it occurred in Afghanistan, or Iraq. [/b]
Link, or quote, please?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#805021 - 08/21/04 03:17 PM Re: The American Image Just Got Worse
Jolly Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14039
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by netizen:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
 Quote:
These are not entirely "new" revelations. There have been previous reports of role of medical staff in Iraq torture scandals reported elsewhere: New England Journal of Medicene; USA Today, Washington Post, and as well the role of medical staff in the scandal is part the various on-going military investigations.
Link, or quote, please. [/b]
I thought you read the article? ???

Oh right... [/b]
Yo! Nutcase!

You are trying to substantiate the opinion piece by...a quote from the opinion piece. :rolleyes:

Perhaps I have something in common with folks from Missouri.

Show me facts. Facts that a physician altered a death certificate at Abu Gharib.

I'm waiting.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
The Art of the Sound Clip
by Jolly
04/24/14 02:52 PM
5 Abstract Studies
by Simon Hester
04/24/14 02:37 PM
Chopin Prelude in C Minor
by arty
04/24/14 02:14 PM
Question for shigeru owners.. what sounded similar ?
by Brother Methias
04/24/14 01:51 PM
Amazing Grace piano duet
by Erkamurka
04/24/14 12:47 PM
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