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Originally posted by Brendan: Wait, weren't you the person who made a thread about betting on when the pope will die?
There were no takers. Most people thought it was in poor taste so I apologized and deleted the post. Originally posted by Brendan:
So what do you have against Catholics?
Nothing against Catholics, if you reread that post you'll see that what I'm against is the rape of children and its systematic coverup by the Church. Aren't you against that?
If you don't talk to your children about equal temperment, who will?
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accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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Originally posted by apple*: Originally posted by jon-nyc: [b] Originally posted by apple*: [b] It's really odd with all this documented abuse reiterated repeatedly that the world's largest gathering is ongoing. What do Catholic pedophilia and its systematic coverup by the Church leadership have to do with Islam? And is your point really "oh well, we catholics keep the faith regardeless of the fact that the institution to which we commit ourselves has sytematically covered up the rape of children?" Is that a defense of the church or an indictment of practicing catholics? [/b] don;t be silly... you know what i'm talking about [/b]I wasn't being silly. How else should I interpret your point? My characterization of it may have been a bit flip, but clearly you were implying that the fact that the RC church still has millions of followers somehow mitigates its sins. I stand by my point that that is a poor defense of the church but a rather severe indictment of practicing catholics. If there's another way to interpret your original comment, please let me know, don't just call me silly. Thats a weak and transparent cop-out.
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Originally posted by jon-nyc: And is your point really "oh well, we catholics keep the faith regardeless of the fact that the institution to which we commit ourselves has sytematically covered up the rape of children?"
Is that a defense of the church or an indictment of practicing catholics? Actually, that is the point, Jon. We do keep the faith regardless of any of the sins of the organizational structure. I think what non-believers have difficulty understanding, especially about religions which have a signficant structure running things, is that we separate the faith from the institution. My faith in not in the Catholic Church as an organization. My faith is in God and I express it through the Catholic religion. Two different things. It is not unlike my adherence to the United States. I do not cease to be an American, to love my country or to be less committed to American ideals or values just because its leaders undertake policies and actions which I think are antithetical to my concept of the United States.
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Originally posted by Renauda: All the same I will put my trust in the wisdom of the Church to deal effectively with these matters. Sadly I cannot put the same trust in the secular rabble which is heck bent to crucify and mock the legacy of the late Bishop of Rome and the faith of Catholic community.
The way the "wisdom of the Church" "effectively" dealt with it was to cover up the crime, transfer the predators to new parishes, and threaten and impugn the victims of the abuse. It was in fact the "secular rabble" that finally brought some of them to justice - over the loud protestations of the Church, who kept insisting they could 'handle it internally'.
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Originally posted by RZ: My faith in not in the Catholic Church as an organization. My faith is God and I express it through the Catholic religion.
Two different things. Good for you, RZ. Would that your co-religionists were able to make that distinction.
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Originally posted by jon-nyc: Originally posted by RZ: [b] My faith in not in the Catholic Church as an organization. My faith is God and I express it through the Catholic religion.
Two different things. Good for you, RZ. Would that your co-religionists were able to make that distinction. [/b]I suspect they do, Jon. Most Catholics I know do.
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Originally posted by RZ: I suspect they do, Jon. Most Catholics I know do. Read the above posts on this thread, and you'll see that's not the case.
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Child abuse? There’s NO excuse for it anywhere.
People who believe that the Church’s actions were self serving in order to preserve a kind of order within the Church involving celibacy of its priests are in my view correct in their analysis and there should be a complete end to trying to make something bad into something seem not so bad. Charges that the Church acted as if it were “above the law” in these matters are also true and cannot be so easily explained away. They did it centuries before too and these actions led inexorably to the Reformation as surely as any other abuses of power the Church has ever engaged in.
John Paul II as CEO at the time deserves some blame, as he did for not acting decisively in the Bosnian war, etc. etc. He was a human being with failings as are we all.
The Church too is an institution made up of human beings, none of whom are perfect, and some indeed are real scoundrels.
I have no reason to believe that pedophile activity in the Church has ceased entirely either. It needs to be weeded out and the process will never end because a fraction of people out there, men and women, are pedophiles.
It’s fortunate that in this thread none have jumped to the conclusion that pedophilia can in any sense be tolerated. I guess we do all draw the line somewhere.
I am a practicing Roman Catholic Christian and I like what RZ said; “My faith in not in the Catholic Church as an organization. My faith is in God and I express it through the Catholic religion.” This is how I feel as well.
Just because it’s not perfect is no reason not to go, not to support it where it does good, not to pray that it does better. Few human institutions of any size and influence escape without blood on their hands. These days a great many Catholics are quite aware of the sins of the institution. Would abolishing the “discipline” of celibacy among priests change things for the better? Not sure that they would. What Catholic men and women, without whose support the Church would simply not exist, should be doing is NOT defending the Church when it is doing something wrong, like covering up child abuse. What they should do is petition their bishops and besiege the Vatican itself if need be to correct abuses. We are in a day and age where none can hide for long. It’s time that the Church decided to come clean, stop hiding its wrongs, get rid of priests who can no longer serve, etc.
What if there are not enough priests? Well then I guess the “discipline” of celibacy may have to fall to the expediency of serving the people. Many of us out here are waiting, hoping, praying for changes that will allow people who are married to serve as priests. Will that extend to women being ordained? I don’t think so. What could however happen, and it would be a good thing, is for women with a certain rank within the Church, to be allowed to deliver the homilies. I’m quite sure many would have enormously good things to say from the pulpits of Roman Catholic churches everywhere. I too mourn the late pope. He was I believe basically a good man. Was he a great man? In historical terms he certainly was. He detested communism as do I and was responsible in no small part for getting rid of most of it in Europe. He was certainly a very brave man and for most of his pontificate, a strong man. But his time was up and God took him home. Was he a saint in the Catholic sense? That remains to be seen. We Catholics tend to believe in the possibility of the miraculous, probably way too much. But miracles can and do happen. They help enormously to soften the hearts of the bitter and give hope to the weak.
But the child abuse scandals in the Church were and are terrible and there’s no escaping the consequences; hand the perps over to civil authorities for trial, sentencing and removal from society, especially from our churches.
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RZ, when I have the time I will read your links. This is truly something I'd like to have a better grip on. However, here are a few of my unstudied thoughts.
1. Let's assume that the % of pedophile priests matches the % in the general population. That is a huge problem from the get-go. Priests hold a position of the highest trust. Children are taught to treat them unquestioningly, with the utmost respect. Priests therefore should be beholden to a high duty (in my legalese, the word that comes to me as as a fiduciary) to the innocents they serve. Allowing whatever that percent (let's say 8%) into the priesthood thereofore puts 8% of the children in Catholic churces at risk of not only encountering pedophilic advances, but by someone whom they've been instructed to love, respect and trust.
2. This point in the form of question. Why is there no similar phenomenon in any protestant institutions or Jewish? From this, I cannot help but deduce that there must be a connection between celibacy and the high number of abuse cases.
3. I have no qualms whatsoever about you Catholics who hold your faith. I have no question that there is a lot of good in the Catholic church. What I find so immensely disturbing is the shoddy manner in which the church as an institution has dealt with this. First by brushing case after case under the rug, before the spate of law suits started emerging (those damn lawyers, at it again!!) hoping the victims would just go away; not even bothering to oust the perps, but moving them from one parish to the next, where they would continue to prey on children. Clearly, the church's primary concern was not for the victims, or fixing the problem, but rather, keeping the whole ugly mess from becoming public. Once it was out in the public, this tactic was no longer going to work. But how many decades of that occurred before the church formally recognized the problem? That, to me, is the biggest scandal of all.
4. There is no other religious or other institution like the Catholic church in which one man, the pope, holds such a huge degree of power and influence over such a vast number of people - worldwide. Given his stature, power and the scope of his influence, his minimalist treatment of this vast problem was scandalous. I just don't see how you can get around the fact that this is a major blight on his tenure as pope.
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Originally posted by kathyk: 4. There is no other religious or other institution like the Catholic church in which one man, the pope, holds such a huge degree of power and influence over such a vast number of people - worldwide. Given his stature, power and the scope of his influence, his minimalist treatment of this vast problem was scandalous. I just don't see how you can get around the fact that this is a major blight on his tenure as pope. Many will consider it a blight and the perspective of John Paul will be stigmatized...(recently been to the eye doctor) We would expect or would have hoped for him to denounce all the bishops and all the priests, to turn them over to the law, to excommunicate them.. But we as the laiety and non Catholics cannot comprehend the magnitude of repercussion that any reaction to a scandal of this sort might cause. I'd like to rediscuss this issue in 10 years. I myself know personally 2 priests who were removed. In my diocese it seems like the recruiters are homosexual...(and not in the closet type of guys... flamers) as if they chose them particularly to find young homosexuals in the population to recruit... I find that very very odd and indicative that what we have (at least in a Kansas is an 'being' that wishes to replicate itself) - very twisted and not 'Christian'in the least. I've had many discussions with Catholics about allowing priests to be female or marry... it seems to be such a simple solution..and am alway, always adamently opposed with refutable logic. :rolleyes:
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
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Originally posted by RZ: Originally posted by jon-nyc: [b] Originally posted by RZ: [b] My faith in not in the Catholic Church as an organization. My faith is God and I express it through the Catholic religion.
Two different things. Good for you, RZ. Would that your co-religionists were able to make that distinction. [/b] I suspect they do, Jon. Most Catholics I know do. [/b]That's exactly how I practice my Catholicism RZ and Jon.. I know very few Catholics anymore who actually are the ritual and dogma.
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few
love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)
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"The true character of a man can be determined by witnessing what he does when no one is watching".
anon
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Originally posted by kathyk: Why is there no similar phenomenon in any protestant institutions or Jewish? From this, I cannot help but deduce that there must be a connection between celibacy and the high number of abuse cases.
Perhaps your Protestants are better than ours: http://www.religioustolerance.org/sch_resid3.htm ...but if you prefer to ignore what RZ and David Burton have written be my guest, I'll still put my trust in the wisdom of the Catholic Church to deal with the problem effectively.
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae
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Originally posted by Renauda: I'll still put my trust in the wisdom of the Catholic Church to deal with the problem effectively. The triumph of hope over experience.
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Jon,
One thing I know is from a conversation with a priest. He said all the things you'd expect to hear, including how angry he was that a few priests have made them all look like monsters.
He also said he thought some of the measures the Church had taken were over the top. For instance, the minute there is even the slightest accusation against a priest, the priest is removed. Guilty until proven innocent.
I don't have much independent knowledge of how that new process works, but it does show good faith in moving forward.
Regarding John Paul, the whole thing is clearly a debacle that occurred to some extent on his watch. It's a black mark.
Nobody's perfect.
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Originally posted by jon-nyc: Originally posted by Renauda: [b] I'll still put my trust in the wisdom of the Catholic Church to deal with the problem effectively. The triumph of hope over experience. [/b]More like the triumph of wisdom over cynicism...
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Originally posted by jon-nyc: Originally posted by Renauda: [b] I'll still put my trust in the wisdom of the Catholic Church to deal with the problem effectively. The triumph of hope over experience. [/b]If you've ever experienced the way the Catholic church does address problems, whether it be a small sin, a population to bring into the 20th century, a school to build with minimal funds or the attempt to aid a parishioner in dire straits, you'd have hope too.
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I did not say that protestant churches are immune. I'm sure you can find many other cases. The link you post points to one, albeit, large scandal in Canada. The big distinction there is that the abuses all seem to have occurred in residential schools - a forum rife for abuse. This is true whether in church institutions or secular. You can find similar abuses in secular residential schools (there were some huge Native American scandals) and even more in psychiatric hospitals and institutions for the developementally disabled. Those are all horrible, but again, present a very different set of circumstances; children in settings away from their famlies, who in many cases have been abandoned by their families. These settings were and have always been pedophilia heaven.
This is contrasted with the countless, widespread, diverse abuses in parishes scattered all over the country, that occurred practically under the noses of the family's of the victims, and the cases continue to pop up like mushrooms. Argue all you want, but there is no other sect or church that has been beset with such widespread abuses.
Ren says, "I'll still put my trust in the wisdom of the Catholic Church to deal with the problem effectively."
Given the pathetically slow response of the church, and the meager response even then, I'd have to label yours as a blind faith. More power to you. Be sure to keep your mouth and eyes tightly closed so you don't get too much sand in them.
In contrast, I can accept RZ's perspective. He at least acknowledges that was an institutional breakdown and there IS a problem in dire need of head on confrontation.
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Just recently read an article where it said the incidence of abusers among coaches is much higher than the incidence among priests..
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