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#810550 - 03/11/04 03:36 AM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Jolly, I'm not a doctor (just a retired nurse with some background in research), but I believe pique and others may be trying to make valid points. I care not to debate the "politics" of the article, but will suggest that this article may be peppered/spiced with some misinformation.

The article states, "Approximately 40% of American women under 45 have had at least one abortion. 25% of all pregnancies end in abortion. Since the legalization of abortion in 1973, over 40 million abortions have taken place. ....". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but don't these 40% and 25% figures seem to be the same ones we learn in our Obstetrics classes that relate to "abortion", being the medical term most understand as "miscarriage" and also encompases "abortions" which are deemed medically necessary b/c of "miscarriage"? The author of this article then follows these statements with her "40 million abortions" comment, and I feel pretty sure she is then speaking of "abortion on demand". My impression is that she seeks to either confuse or shock her audience by purposefully misusing the word "abortion" to add substance to her beliefs concerning abortion "on demand". She cites no references.

The article also quotes from an ACOG Practice Bulletin, "Long term risks sometimes attributed to surgical abortion include potential effects on reproductive functions, cancer incidence and psychological sequelae. However, the medical literature when carefully evaluated, clearly demonstrates no significantly negative impact or any of those factors with surgical abortion". The author then comments "Interesting. Despite the fact that medical research shows a link to at least four serious conditions, none of them falls inder the criteria of 'significantly negative' ....". In my mind, I feel this author is purposefully using the ambiguities inherent in the published medical article and twists the meaning of the word "significant" in order to make her point. I infer that the medical quote is referring to maternal risks being 'statistically not significant', as reported in whatever studies/literature the medical researchers reviewed. The point is that the author is generalizing based on faulty interpretations of a secondary source, that by the way, does not actually state "breast cancer" risk, but instead "cancer incidence".

Dr. John brings up an interesting point when he states that "early menarche, late menopause, fewer/later pregnancies, not breast feeding, ? no. abortions", increase one's breast cancer risk. Dr. John is quite correct, and these factors may well be linked somehow with Estrogen . Dr. Moonlight (he could clarify this) may also be thinking of "abortion" in the medical sense, that includes "abortion on demand" as well as "medically necessary abortion", or "spontaneus abortion". I'll add that Obesity & Dysmenorrhagea have also been studied in association with breast cancer risk too. I do not think doctors routinely tell patients with any of these factors that they may have an increased risk of breast cancer (Heck they're so busy focusing their time/skills on what's proven and relevant to each patient's situation), and I'm not sure they should. What good is it to tell a mother of an 9 y.o. that her daughter may have an increased risk of breast cancer b/c she's started menstrating early. I believe that risks of heart disease, stroke, diabetes, etc. probably lead on the list of things doctors generally mention to obese women, followed by the cancer talk (colon, cervix, breast, etc.), but the point is that each physician should really decide what is relevant and what is not given individual patient situations. Specifically speaking to the "breast cancer" risk with patients undergoing abortion (on demand, medically necessary, or spontaneously), seems almost foolish taken in context with the patient scenarios, I've been involved in, IMHO.

This being said, I believe yes, any well designed studies that come to identify probable or actual risks associated with breast cancer in patients experiencing abortion (on demand, medically necessary, whatever), are likely important.

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#810551 - 03/11/04 04:32 AM Re: Best Interests
lucy in the sky_dup1 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 508
Loc: NYC
Dear Apple,

Reading back several posts on this thread, you decry "brain suckers." Apple, how many people do you think support late term abortions in other than the most desperate circumstances? My guess is that their number is small. The very topic makes me queasy! At this writing, the only circumstances where I can see the procedure as acceptable is to save the life of the mother, or as an alternative to the further unfolding of a tragic scenario such as a fetus that has developed with only a rudimentary brain, capable of no cognitive function, and doomed to a painful death in front of heartbroken parents within a short time of birth.

Are we really that far apart?
_________________________
Lucy

Member, Red Piano Club
Member, 100 post club

Email: femmedada@aol.com

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#810552 - 03/11/04 08:41 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Yes I do decry brain suckers...The women who seek late term abortions are primarily the VERY young and the VERY poor, not the VERY medically compromised. Law allows great latitude in determining what constitutes a threat to the mother's health. Mental distress is permissible for instance. How about 4% - 4 percent of late term abortion will save a mother's life... 16 % will prevent genetic abnormality.

http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/air/air_vol14no4_20001.htm

Let me tell you all, I am not sure that we should make the right to kill a baby illegal. - If the pro-selfish were less insistent that such a procedure was ladeda run of the mill, every day stuff for women, a 'right' like a chicken in a pot, I'd be a lot happier... and we'd be a much better society.

Call it murder, Call it legal but don't call it what it is not.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810553 - 03/11/04 08:54 AM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Zymtil:
But, when the medical community ignores potential health risks (under the guise that the procedure in question is common practice), then something needs to be done. It's all about full disclosure.

Let me take an example that "anti-lifers" like to use: a younge girl is raped in a dark alley, a few weeks later she discovers she is pregnant. What kind of condition is she in to be able to research potential health risks? Do you really think she will be in the mood to research possible complications? [/b]
This underscores the misconstrual coursing through this thread. There is no shortage of research on the effect of abotions on a women's health. There's a plethora of it, and, I trust, new research continues to be done. This is not about whether research should be done, but rather, conducting it to serve political aims. I don't know this Kansas leglislator from Adam, but I suspect that his soap-boxing here is purely politically motivated ("Let's get some research, GD it, that shows that abortions might harm a woman!")

Your young girl example is just silly, because as Picque points out, ample, undisputed research bears out that an early abortion is many times safer than a full term pregancy - ESPECIALLY for a girl who is not fully grown and developed. The only safe choice for that young girl, and certainly the choice that would best bar further phsycic damage to her would be an abortion. And if she were my child, she would have it as soon after discovery of the pregnancy as possible.

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#810554 - 03/11/04 09:10 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
all aborted females are damaged by abortion. I know that trite, but this discussion is not what you - Kathyk would make it, it is our country, our morality, our group behavior, our legacy, that we discuss. Not every thing should be trivialized into political smear....
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810555 - 03/11/04 09:24 AM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
Nice couple of posts, apple. You are a sweetheart.

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#810556 - 03/11/04 09:43 AM Re: Best Interests
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
 Quote:
thank you, doctor, for that load of b.s. women get pregnant all the time and then miscarry, often without even knowing it. from what you have written, they would therefore be at greater risk for breast cancer.

[/b]
Pique, you make some awfully grand statements for having no medical training, whatsoever. Guess what, know-it-all, miscarriages DO increase your chance of breast cancer...for the same exact reason as abortions. Now before you make your next stupid comment, go look it up...please!! And Lucy, same to you. I'm sorry I sent chills up your spine. I'm glad you have given your authoritative approval of some of my posts. I'm sorry that there is one that just didn't sit right with you. Now spend your time doing some research instead of shooting off prematurely!!!
Thank-you katie.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#810557 - 03/11/04 09:47 AM Re: Best Interests
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#810558 - 03/11/04 09:54 AM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Zymtil, all I have to say to your comment is, have you experienced it?[/b]

Have you?

WE (as in women) don't need some right-wing religious zealot from Kansas (ignore the man behind the curtain!) legislating on a federal level what ought and ought not be researched in this arena.[/b]

Every time a brain dead leftist liberal doesn't like something, they attack with the same labels - everyone becomes a "right wing religious zealot". Thanks to their "logic", we have warning labels on nearly everything, but don't you dare warn anyone of a potential risk to their health if it stands in a leftist's way of killing more babies....

Yes, all you right wing religious zealots, the brain dead left wants your daughter to *not* know the risks involved in killing a baby, but they *do* want you to know:

"Caution: The contents of this bottle should not be fed to fish." -- On a bottle of shampoo for dogs.

"For external use only!" -- On a curling iron.

"Warning: This product can burn eyes." -- On a curling iron.

"Do not use in shower." -- On a hair dryer.

"Do not use while sleeping." -- On a hair dryer.

"Do not use while sleeping or unconscious." -- On a hand-held massaging device.

"Do not place this product into any electronic equipment." -- On the case of a chocolate CD in a gift basket.

"Recycled flush water unsafe for drinking." -- On a toilet at a public sports facility in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

"Shin pads cannot protect any part of the body they do not cover." -- On a pair of shin guards made for bicyclists.

"This product not intended for use as a dental drill." -- On an nlectric rotary tool.

"Caution: Do not spray in eyes." -- On a container of underarm deodorant.

"Do not drive with sunshield in place." -- On a cardboard sunshield that keeps the sun off the dashboard.

"Caution: This is not a safety protective device." -- On a plastic toy helmet used as a container for popcorn.

"Do not use near fire, flame, or sparks." -- On an "Aim-n-Flame" fireplace lighter

"Do not eat toner." -- On a toner cartridge for a laser printer.

"Not intended for highway use." -- On a 13-inch wheel on a wheelbarrow.

"This product is not to be used in bathrooms." -- On a Holmes bathroom heater.

"May irritate eyes." -- On a can of self-defense pepper spray.

"Eating rocks may lead to broken teeth." -- On a novelty rock garden set called "Popcorn Rock."

"Caution! Contents hot!" -- On a Domino's Pizza box.

"Caution: Hot beverages are hot!" -- On a coffee cup.

"Warning: May contain small parts." -- On a frisbee.

"Do not use orally." -- On a toilet bowl cleaning brush.

"Please keep out of children." -- On a butcher knife.

"Not suitable for children aged 36 months or less." -- On a birthday card for a 1 year old.

Warning: Do not use on eyes." -- In the manual for a heated seat cushion.

"Do not look into laser with remaining eye." -- On a laser pointer.

"Do not use for drying pets." -- In the manual for a microwave oven.

"For use on animals only." -- On an electric cattle prod.

"For use by trained personnel only." -- On a can of air freshener.

"Keep out of reach of children and teenagers." -- On a can of air freshener.

"Remember, objects in the mirror are actually behind you." -- On a motorcycle helmet-mounted rear-view mirror.

"Warning: Riders of personal watercraft may suffer injury due to the forceful injection of water into body cavities either by falling into the water or while mounting the craft." -- In the manual for a jetski.

"Warning: Do not climb inside this bag and zip it up. Doing so will cause injury and death." -- A label inside a protective bag (for fragile objects), which measures 15cm by 15cm by 12cm.

"Warning: has been found to cause cancer in laboratory mice." -- On a box of rat poison.

"Fragile. Do not drop." -- Posted on a Boeing 757.

"Cannot be made non-poisonous." -- On the back of a can of de-icing windshield fluid.

"Caution: Remove infant before folding for storage." -- On a portable stroller.

"Excessive dust may be irritating to shin and eyes." -- On a tube of agarose powder, used to make gels.

"Look before driving." -- On the dash board of a mail truck.

"Do not iron clothes on body." -- On packaging for a Rowenta iron.

But......

whatever you do - do *not* listen to a doctor who wants to warn you of the potential harmful effects of having an abortion. He is after all, nothing more than a "right wing religious zealot" - and we all know all the intelligent people are lawyers living in New England.....

who want you to know that your preschoolers should not drive while taking children's cough medicine.......

I agree with Johnnymoonlight. It is irresponsible for a medical professional not to make a patient aware of known potential risks as a result of elective surgery.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810559 - 03/11/04 09:58 AM Re: Best Interests
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
This is an opinion forum. Please quit trying to cloud the issue by presenting facts and expert testimony when feelings and personal conviction are the rules for this topic.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#810560 - 03/11/04 10:25 AM Re: Best Interests
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
Kathy, you still don't seem to get the point. Sure there is plenty of research being conducted on the effects of abortions on a woman's health. But how much of that information is getting to the woman who goes for the abortion? Probably, NONE, regarding the long-term complications.
JA, you also are missing the point. Sure, the acute complications of an abortion are discussed in detail to every patient who goes for an abortion, including "possibly death" as a compication. But that is not the point.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#810561 - 03/11/04 10:35 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Right Johnny...My gynecologist was almost crying the last time I saw him. I had just delivered my healthy Klara at age 43.. He was off to perform a hysterectomy on a 13 year old, her future once unblemished before her, who because of a botched abortion performed at the Planned Parenthood, somehow suffered a huge infection. Her parents were unaware she had had an abortion. Had they known and were able to lend parental supervision to this equation a simple antibiotic could have prevented a life of sterility.

I know there are are tons of personal examples on both sides of the issue. I am stressing that information, research, monitoring, is important. To assert otherwise is el stupido.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810562 - 03/11/04 10:37 AM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
Kathy, you still don't seem to get the point. Sure there is plenty of research being conducted on the effects of abortions on a woman's health. But how much of that information is getting to the woman who goes for the abortion? Probably, NONE, regarding the long-term complications.
JA, you also are missing the point. Sure, the acute complications of an abortion are discussed in detail to every patient who goes for an abortion, including "possibly death" as a compication. But that is not the point. [/b]
Excellent Johnny,

And just add into the mix a scared 15 year old girl that, by law, doesn't have to notify her parents of what she is doing and you have a taste of what kathy k's "America" is all about. \:\)

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#810563 - 03/11/04 10:40 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
america - america
the land we know and love

what we choose
determines what we lose
from the God we shun above.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810564 - 03/11/04 10:53 AM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
katie wrote:
 Quote:
This being said, I believe yes, any well designed studies that come to identify probable or actual risks associated with breast cancer in patients experiencing abortion (on demand, medically necessary, whatever), are likely important.
This is what I think is the crux of the matter, not the politics.

We can't treat, what we don't know.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810565 - 03/11/04 10:54 AM Re: Best Interests
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
My gynecologist was almost crying the last time I saw him. He was off to perform a hysterectomy on a 13 year old, who because of a botched abortion performed at the Planned Parenthood, somehow suffered a huge infection. Her parents were unaware she had had an abortion.[/b]
another load of b.s. apple, where exactly do you hear this stuff? from a bunch of radical anti-abortion activists? it is fiction. i know people who have accompanied friends to these clinics and their experiences were nothing like what you describe.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#810566 - 03/11/04 10:58 AM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
america - america
the land we know and love

what we choose
determines what we lose
from the God we shun above.[/b]

Beautiful.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810567 - 03/11/04 11:13 AM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
 Quote:
thank you, doctor, for that load of b.s. women get pregnant all the time and then miscarry, often without even knowing it. from what you have written, they would therefore be at greater risk for breast cancer.

[/b]
Guess what, know-it-all, miscarriages DO increase your chance of breast cancer...for the same exact reason as abortions. [/b]
that was EXACTLY my point! if abortions increase cancer risk, it therefore follows that miscarriages must also increase cancer risk.

my point is that when you tell someone that if they get an abortion it might increase cancer risk, you are scaring them with information that is completely out of context. that is highly irresponsible.

putting it in context would be to say that miscarriages, including the ones we're not even aware of, also increase cancer risk. AND to also include the fact that full term pregnancy and delivery are far more risky to the woman's health than an abortion.

and then, to give it even greater context, once you point out that if they had early menarche or didn't breast feed, or had their children after a certain age, they are also at increased risk, well, then, you may as well just skip the whole subject, because obviously some choices in life result in a slightly elevated risk of breast cancer, but you can't control everything that happens to you in life. and compared with the consequences of carrying the pregnancy to term, those risks look pretty insignificant.

you are recommending that women be given one-sided information. not for the first time, i really have to question your medical credentials and judgment.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810568 - 03/11/04 11:21 AM Re: Best Interests
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
all aborted females are damaged by abortion. [/b]
Trite or not, probably the best point made on this thread. Kudos!
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#810569 - 03/11/04 11:22 AM Re: Best Interests
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
This is an opinion forum. Please quit trying to cloud the issue by presenting facts and expert testimony when feelings and personal conviction are the rules for this topic. [/b]
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#810570 - 03/11/04 11:26 AM Re: Best Interests
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
" AND to also include the fact that full term pregnancy and delivery are far more risky to the woman's health than an abortion."



Pique, you need to stop making medical claims with absolutely no basis for your statements.
Where did you find this little tid bit?
Are you really a journalist? I don't think so.
So let me see if I have this right...You feel that since miscarriages increase the risk of breast cancer, that by telling a woman, who is contemplating an abortion, that she is also at increased risk for breast cancer, I am somehow misinforming her?? This is tantamount to me "misinforming" an IV drug abuser about his
increased chance of developing enocarditis because a person with cardiac valvular problems shares the same exact risk.
Your argument is so weak that I have to question your journalistic credentials.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#810571 - 03/11/04 11:26 AM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Teenagers, reside developmentally, in the world of "here & now", regardless of how mature many seem. In my mind it seems a bit foolish to discuss "possible" breast cancer risks with teenagers whether they are undergoing abortion, or antibiotic therapy for acne (remember this thread .... I still need to review the study .... & thus may withdraw this comment) b/c there are much more relevant (read: 'proven' or heavily 'researched') risks to discuss. I won't debate whether teenagers should require parental consent for abortion on demand ..... but will suggest that health professionals generally are quite careful how they present ALL the information to those seeking abortions ..... and patients who can be quite stressed when meeting with health professionals (e.g. the young, uneducated, non-English speaking, emotionally labile, etc.) often can and do forget, or misinterpret some of the information that is presented to them, despite the often CONSIDERABLE efforts of health professionals providing the information. Hence, I believe that any person undergoing an abortion or other stressful procedure needs to bring an educated/objective/mature ally with them when speaking with the medical folk so that IMPORTANT information can be reinforced/re-iterated/re-interpreted later. I think it is utterly sad that the teenager that Apple was referring to didn't understand/ignored what was likely explained to her as "post-procedure care" and "signs & symptoms" of infection post-abortion. Her life may likely be deeply affected b/c of this & she may possibly misinterpret her need of the hysterectomy as well, stating it was due to a "botched abortion" .....

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#810572 - 03/11/04 11:28 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:

you are recommending that women be given one-sided information. not for the first time, i really have to question your medical credentials and judgment. [/b]
????
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810573 - 03/11/04 11:31 AM Re: Best Interests
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
Guess what, know-it-all, miscarriages DO increase your chance of breast cancer...for the same exact reason as abortions. [/qb]
that was EXACTLY my point! if abortions increase cancer risk, it therefore follows that miscarriages must also increase cancer risk.

my point is that when you tell someone that if they get an abortion it might increase cancer risk, you are scaring them with information that is completely out of context. that is highly irresponsible.

. [/QB][/QUOTE]

How is this "out of context"? "irresponsible"?
Pique, you throw power words out there but with such a lame argument to follow. I think if you were my patient, I would fire you.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

Top
#810574 - 03/11/04 11:36 AM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by johnmoonlight:
[QUOTE]

my point is that when you tell someone that if they get an abortion it might increase cancer risk, you are scaring them with information that is completely out of context. that is highly irresponsible.
[/b]
My gosh, Dr. John & I agree on something? .... except he said it quite succinctly.

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#810575 - 03/11/04 11:44 AM Re: Best Interests
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
That was a pique comment from the last page, not Dr. John's.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#810576 - 03/11/04 11:45 AM Re: Best Interests
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
Nope, sorry Katie, but that is Pique's statement above. I would never want to be connected to such a myopic statement.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#810577 - 03/11/04 11:46 AM Re: Best Interests
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
superfluous comment deleted
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#810578 - 03/11/04 11:54 AM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Well, oops .... it was myopic (on my part) ..... and I've put my glasses on now .... I agree with pique & will leave it at that. I'm just not smart enough to participate in this discussion ..... and will depart for the Pianists Corner. Bye, Bye for now.

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#810579 - 03/11/04 11:58 AM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
you are recommending that women be given one-sided information. not for the first time, i really have to question your medical credentials and judgment.
Idiot.
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