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#810670 - 03/12/04 03:25 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Do a bit of research, and find out a few facts about their founder, and her prinicples at the inception of the organization.

She and Himmler would have been great buddies.

Eugenics creates strange bedfellows. Or maybe not so strange. [/b]
She sounds pretty admirable to me. This, of course, is from PP's website. Let's see what you can come up with. A snippet:

"Margaret Sanger and her sister, Ethel Byrne, both nurses, and a third woman, Fania Mindell, open the first birth control clinic in America in the Brownsville community of Brooklyn, New York. They provide contraceptive advice to desperately poor, immigrant women who line up hours before the clinic doors open.

All three, Byrne, Mindel, and Sanger are arrested and indicted under New York State's 1873 "Comstock Law," which forbids the dissemination of birth control information. Sanger's arrest is her second for violating a Comstock law: two years earlier she was indicted under a federal Comstock statute for sending birth control information through the U.S. mails in her publication, The Woman Rebel."

Read the whole history. It's not only fasinating but makes me all the more grateful to the people who founded the organization and keep it going.

History or Reproductive Rights


P.S. Their director (can't remember her name anymore - maybe JF will) spoke at our law school commencement in 1990. She was dignified, well-spoken and keenly intelligent - I was honored.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#810671 - 03/12/04 03:26 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by JBryan: I have to say that I was taken aback by the attack on John. It is one thing to question his facts and his conclusions and it is perfectly legitimate to do so. It is quite another matter to question his professionalism generally and even broadly hint that he may not be a medical professional at all. I found this to be especially stunning in light of the fact that I was given to understand that the more leftward leaning members of this forum were incapable of such nastiness and particularly coming from one who complains the loudest about such nastiness. In fact, reading through this thread, I would have to say that the pro-choice side of this argument has no lack of viciousness.
[/b]
I know JBryan said this a while back, and I'm signing on late (somebody's gotta go to work around here!) but I think it's very well stated. Good job, dude.

And to other news:

kathy's: "Tom, as utterly cadish as you will be,"

or pique's: "not too bright, are you, tommie?"

aren't very nice statements either.

I was hurt. \:\(

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#810672 - 03/12/04 03:28 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Tom, Sweety, I thought you took pride in being cadish. \:\(

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#810673 - 03/12/04 03:30 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
I'm an OPTIMIST, not a cad! (Same thing only the former is better phrased!)

kathy, when you're not PO'ed you're cute...when you're PO'ed..your beautiful. \:\)

Jack can come over to my house and beat me up any time he chooses.

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#810674 - 03/12/04 03:32 PM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Matt G,
I appreciate your recent post ..... You have the ability to see through the rhetoric, re-focus my thinking, and provide insight through your analogy ..... Thank you.

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#810675 - 03/12/04 03:44 PM Re: Best Interests
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
I am most certainly in an Old Testament mood.
Then, do get out the "good" book and read from the New Testament. Your mood needs a change.

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#810676 - 03/12/04 03:52 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Science Schmience! This pretty well sums up what Brownbeck's proposal is all about - politics as usual - been there done that!


With Friends like this . . . ?

Some of you guys would really like to put us (at least us women) back in the Stone Ages.

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#810677 - 03/12/04 04:12 PM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

Let me see if I get this right... [/b]
nope. you got every single last one of them wrong. and in so posting, you revealed just how closed-minded and blindered you are. everything you wrote is a distortion.

 Quote:
1. A woman who denies her Jewishness consatntly harps upon the intentions and ethics of those who would question anything Jewish.
i've never denied my jewishness. if i had, you wouldn't know that i am jewish. and "constantly" is hardly an accurate characterization. when someone makes an anti-semitic remark i point it out. that's the only way people learn.

 Quote:
2. A woman who would subvert the normal, legal channels, in her efforts to obtain her bootleg piano, at the lowest possible price.
i purchased a piano for sale at a dealer's, and took the known risks that it might turn out to be the equivalent of buying a used piano. there's nothing illegal about that, nor unethical. plenty of reputable dealers buy european pianos without going through the u.s. distributor. altenburg's who you have recommended, does the same thing.

 Quote:
3. A woman, who can define morality, the precursor of ethics, yet bases her morality on nothing more than the whim of the moment. Her whim, of course.
you obviously know nothing about my moral compass. but i can tell you that as solid as it is, it has nothing to do with god, jesus, or the bible. if that makes it "whim" to you, then you are entitled to your definitions, but that doesn't make them accurate.

 Quote:
4. A woman who tends to post her thoughts, then will rapidly erase her writings, as if they were not there - leaving many of us in the old days before Frank stopped letting us whack the response line, scratching our heads.
i haven't removed a single line i've written here. and most of us at piano world have removed a post at one time or another. there's nothing wrong with that.

 Quote:
Is it ethical to lash out, and then not stay to back it up?
here i am. however, i don't think any of us is obligated to hang around here indefinitely answering inane responses that reveal that the poster didn't read what we wrote in the first place. it becomes pointless after a while. furthermore, some of us actually have better things to do than spend all our waking hours at piano world.

 Quote:
5. A woman who will question the training and ethics of others, yet not hold herself to the same standards. There is no doubt that Dr. Moonlight is a physician, that I can determine.
i question the training and ethics of others when the evidence suggests it is appropriate. i still maintain it is appropriate here. you are free to disagree.

as for holding myself to the same standards, my professional training and ethics have been questioned here plenty of times. i've stuck around and explained myself. i've never taken it personally. it really doesn't matter to me whether people believe i am what i say i am or not, because i already know who i am. so, why should it bother johnnie one bit if i question who he is? i don't see what all the fuss is about, really.

no, don't bother trying to explain it to me.

 Quote:
I do have trouble considering someone a "journalist" who can't recognize a shift key on a keyboard.
this one has been explained before. i type very quickly, usually while doing telephone interviews and there is no time to use the shift key, plus my word processor is programmed to provide capital letters automatically after periods. therefore, i've fallen out of the habit of using the shift key. i don't need it for my work, because the computer takes care of it for me. and i don't need it here, because if it bothers any one of you, you can just skip my posts. i don't care if you read them or not.

 Quote:
6. A woman who champions Planned Parenthood, an organization built on the same Eugenics thinking that propelled the Waffen SS - guess those 6 million Jews didn't matter after all, did they?
by definition, someone who has to constantly invoke hitler and the holocaust to make their point doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. that's a weak-minded way of making an argument. surely you can do better than that? i believe kathyk's done an admirable job of answering this one already.

 Quote:
Nah pique, I think you are a fine, upstanding paragon of virtue. ;\) [/b]
too bad i can't return the compliment. you are about the worst excuse for a christian i've ever encountered. i just love it how you cloak yourself in the bible and then go around being about as uncharitable as they come. what a joke!

obviously you find my very existence as someone who lives outside the bounds of your narrow, religiously defined universe offensive. there's nothing i can do about that. there's many, many kinds of people in the world, and if you want to avoid everyone who isn't like you, you probably shouldn't come here.

but don't even try to pretend that you understand who i am.

and tommie, if i hurt your feelings, i apologize. frankly, i didnt' think a small statement like that would make much of an impression on you, in light of some of the things you have said to me!!
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810678 - 03/12/04 04:24 PM Re: Best Interests
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Here is an article talks about the abortion/ breast cancer debacle and other deceptions that has been going on in the Bush administration. I might add that although this article casts the current administration in a bad light, I have read elsewhere about exactly what the author is talking about. Take a look.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/03/11/opinion/meyer/main605270.shtml

 Quote:
From November 2002 through March 2003, the National Cancer Institute's Web site posted information that suggested there was a connection between having an abortion and getting breast cancer, a connection that has long been definitively refuted.

The political context here is that anti-abortion activists had been pushing for laws requiring doctors to counsel patients about this alleged risk. So the nation's premier clearinghouse of cancer science was putting out junk science and scare propaganda. After a flurry of congressional pique, the NCI convened a three-day conference of experts and pulled the erroneous information on March 21.

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#810679 - 03/12/04 04:32 PM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
how you can state that the links you provided have more veracity than planned parenthood's or the cdc (which is clearly where planned parenthood's came from, if you look at the cdc website), is beyond me.[/b]


Where on earth did you get the idea that Planned Parenthood came from the CDC? This is ridiculous.

Tonight, I'll show you where Planned Parenthood came from. You won't like it, but it will be facts - isn't facts what you're after?
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810680 - 03/12/04 04:35 PM Re: Best Interests
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Susan Sontag is one of the worse traitors this country has ever produced. She went to Hanoi in support of the North Vietnamese during the Vietnam War and protested against the United States. Her comments about 9/11 were that the hijackers were brave men and it is U.S. Airmen that are cowards.

Here is her exact words to the New Yorker,

Susan Sontag, The New Yorker, September 24, 2001

The disconnect between last Tuesday's monstrous dose of reality and the self-righteous drivel and outright deceptions being peddled by public figures and TV commentators is startling, depressing. The voices licensed to follow the event seem to have joined together in a campaign to infantilize the public. Where is the acknowledgement that this was not a "cowardly" attack on "civilization" or "liberty" or "humanity" or "the free world" but an attack on the world's self-proclaimed super-power, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions? How many citizens are aware of the ongoing American bombing of Iraq? And if the word "cowardly" is to be used, it might be more aptly applied to those who kill from beyond the range of retaliation, high in the sky, than to those willing to die themselves in order to kill others. In the matter of courage (a morally neutral virtue): whatever may be said of the perpetrators of Tuesday's slaughter, they were not cowards.

The reason I mention Susan Sontag, is to put some opinions here into perspective. pique admires Susan Sontag to the point of idolizing her. She tries to emulate her in her opinions and her writing.

lb

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#810681 - 03/12/04 04:43 PM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
The reason I mention Susan Sontag, is to put some opinions here into perspective. pique admires Susan Sontag to the point of idolizing here. She tries to emulate her in her opinions and her writing.
another voice from a distant planet.

i've never read a thing susan sontag has written, and i don't know a thing about her political views. i couldn't name a single one of her books or articles.

any resemblance between me and my writing and susan sontag and her writing is a complete coincidence.

and until i've read susan sontag, which i have no plans to do, i really can't comment on if i would agree with anything she has to say or not.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

ib's post is so typical of him: he belongs to the dirty pool school of politics. i watched him do the same thing a while back, trying to spread baseless rumors about the health and viability of the estonia piano company, intimating through rumor and innuendo that there was a problem. like whispering "fire" in a crowded theater. then people pick up on it. create false associations in people's minds, and then they'll pick it up and run with it.

what an *******.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810682 - 03/12/04 04:55 PM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
It's not polite to personally attack people or their qualifications when one doesn't agree with what they've said. Not only does it make the person who is being 'attacked' feel bad it is casts the asperser in an unbecoming light.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810683 - 03/12/04 04:59 PM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
It's not polite to personally attack people or their qualifications when one doesn't agree with what they've said. Not only does it make the person who is being 'attacked' feel bad it is casts the asperser in an unbecoming light.
tell you what, apple. if you, tomk, jolly, larry, jbryan, dt, ib, and everyone else here wants to unanimously agree right now that there can be no further personal attacks in the coffee room, and no one's credentials or ethics can be questioned based on what they said, and every one of you will abide by that and in future be perfectly polite, then i'll agree to that, too.

\:\)

that means jolly cannot any longer post that he thinks i'm unethical (which he has done for a very long time).

ib cannot post that i'm the only excuse for abortion he's ever encountered.

tomk cannot call me a bitch.

etc. etc. etc.

it is ridiculous how all of you close ranks when someone makes a legitimate observation that criticizes one of you, but you don't make a peep about the level of gratuitous insults some of the rest of us have endured at your hands. insults that are far more outrageous.

your indignation is hypocritical. but i'm willing to make the bargain i stated above.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810684 - 03/12/04 05:06 PM Re: Best Interests
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Pique

Baseless rumors, I think not. I have documentation to support those rumors. There was some dancing around by supporter, but the rumors were never proven wrong.

The problem with you pique is you let your emotions rule you. You take your stands based on your oposition, not the situation. Being so shallow wouldn't be so bad, but you have such a big mouth. Bad combination, very bad.

lb

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#810685 - 03/12/04 05:08 PM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
Being so shallow wouldn't be so bad, but you have such a big mouth.
see what i mean, apple? why don't you have a word with the man?
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810686 - 03/12/04 05:11 PM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:

your indignation is hypocritical. but i'm willing to make the bargain i stated above. [/b]
and take back all the bad things you've said too?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810687 - 03/12/04 05:15 PM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
if everyone else will retract all the nasty things they've said, not only about me and to me, but about and to everyone else who has participated here--including bernard, benedict, ariel, john andrew, kathy, george, lazypianist (forgive me if i've forgotten anyone who has been personally attacked in the coffee room)--if they will retract every meanspirited, vicious, nasty thing they've ever said, and sincerely apologize--all of you--then yes, i'll retract anything i've said that has offended anyone.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810688 - 03/12/04 05:19 PM Re: Best Interests
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Pique

You have never offended me, in fact you have provided a lot of entertainment.

But if it will help, I'm sorry I find you such a disgusting human being.

There, is that better?

lb

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#810689 - 03/12/04 05:21 PM Re: Best Interests
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Pique,

What I objected to is very clear cut and unmistakable. Calling into question a person's professional ethics or competence should not be tolerated and I will agree to that. In that vein, what Jolly posted above is clearly the same as what I have been talking about and should not be tolerated.

"Personal attacks", on the other hand, are not always so clear cut. There have been a number of times when members have been accused of personal attacks when there was little more than disagreement. I am not prepared to go into muzzling people when they are expressing their disagreement in perhaps a disagreeable manner. I try not to engage in it but I am not particularly offended by it. We do not need to put the manners police on Larry or kathyk or any of the others who tend to get a little sarcastic, snide, and yes at times, downright insulting. But going into a person's professional ethics is not any of this.

In short, I will agree to your proposition with regard to the matter I have been addressing with you. Let's not get into policing people's manners however. That will end up going no where.

On the matter of hypocrisy, I find it ironic that the very people who are constantly harping on the congeniality of others are the ones who can be the nastiest themselves. I suppose it would grate on me less if they did not moan about it so much.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#810690 - 03/12/04 05:31 PM Re: Best Interests
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
Pique

You have never offended me, in fact you have provided a lot of entertainment.

But if it will help, I'm sorry I find you such a disgusting human being.

There, is that better?

lb [/b]
I would have to make an exception for this.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#810691 - 03/12/04 05:35 PM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
 Quote:
I find it ironic that the very people who are constantly harping on the congeniality of others are the ones who can be the nastiest themselves. I suppose it would grate on me less if they did not moan about it so much.
maybe i decided if i'm going to participate here i should play by the same rules everyone else is playing by, otherwise i am at a distinct disadvantage.

i don't find anything i have ever written here nearly so offensive as some of the things that have been said here about me, and others here. i would not stoop that low.

people's professional credentials have been called into question here in the past, including my own. why that should all of a sudden be so verboten is a bit of a mystery.

i do note the singular lack of protest, however, against those who are being gratuitously nasty towards me. the silence is rather deafening, especially considering how loudly and how much bandwith you've expended defending one of your own against what was really not such a big deal.

you know, i really don't like having conversations here after all, i've decided. there are much better uses i can put my energies towards. the benefits are definitely outweighed by the negatives at this point. i've got better things to do.

have fun. y'all.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810692 - 03/12/04 05:35 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by pique: tomk cannot call me a bitch.[/b]
And I have apologized for it, on numerous occasions and let me apologize again: I am contrite. (Besides I thought you forgave me and said we were, "friends.")

On the other hand I say LOTS of really nice and sweet thing about you--all forgotten.

(In the middle all this [a post or two up] I STOPPED talking abortion and just gratitiously said something nice to kathy--no need--just being nice. When was the last time anybody on the left ever did something nice--just nice?)

You say:
 Quote:
not too bright, are you, tommie?[/b]
and it's business as usual, just meanness, meanness, meanness.

You think I don't have feelings, too? \:\(

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#810693 - 03/12/04 05:39 PM Re: Best Interests
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:

people's professional credentials have been called into question here in the past, including my own. why that should all of a sudden be so verboten is a bit of a mystery.

[/b]
As far as I know, only on the Piano Forum.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#810694 - 03/12/04 05:42 PM Re: Best Interests
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
tom,
i apologized. as so many of you here like to say, don't dish it out if you can't take it. you can quit beating up on gay people, some of whom hang out here, for starters.

as for the nice things you say to me, i can never tell when you are going to just turn around and negate them all by being nasty again. it does have a way of inhibiting trust.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#810695 - 03/12/04 05:56 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Just to try to put this topic back on track (God knows, Picque can have a sharp toungue when she's provoked, but in my observation, it takes quite a lot of provocation and some of you seem to revel in doing just that. Picque you really shouldn't waste your breath on defending yourself - this Susan Sontag thing and your lack of capital letters takes the cake!), may I remind you that one of our most mild-mannered and admired forum members (I remember someone once tagging Lucy as one of the few forumites that everyone likes) expressed her share of indignation over John's initial responses to this thread. John, I like you and respect you as a physician, but your remarks here have been very patronizing. When you get Lucy's dander up, IMO it's time for a little introspection. I think you really owe us women a bit more credit for understanding and being on top of OB/Gyn issues than you acknowledge - after all, how many visits have you had with your Ob/Gyn over the years?

An interesting aside. I remember awhile back there was a women's movement that was decrying the lack of research done on women's cancers relative to the amount of money poured into that done on men's cancers. Isn't amazing now that some right wing, champion of anti-abortionists in Kansas is fighting for research on this narrow little issue. What would we poor, dumb, weak little women do without such champions!

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#810696 - 03/12/04 06:03 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:


Tonight, I'll show you where Planned Parenthood came from. You won't like it, but it will be facts - isn't facts what you're after? [/b]
Can't wait!

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#810697 - 03/12/04 06:08 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
tom,
i apologized. as so many of you here like to say, don't dish it out if you can't take it. you can quit beating up on gay people, some of whom hang out here, for starters.

as for the nice things you say to me, i can never tell when you are going to just turn around and negate them all by being nasty again. it does have a way of inhibiting trust. [/b]
Dear pique,

Fine.

As to gays, I tease them like I would anyone else--NO EXCEPTIONS I am probably the most egalitarian person on the Forum--And READ what I way about them, Bernard may not always understand--but is it the gays I'm really making fun of?

We're not always going to agree on politics--that's life, nothing personal when I argue with you or you argue with me.

On the other hand, personally, I don't treat you as some cardboard cutout liberal poster. Sometimes I'm mad at you, sometimes I love you, sometimes I hate you, sometimes you are a genius and sometimes, not so genius. Sometimes I tease you.

I treat you like a friend who's opinion I respect, but maybe not always agree with. I don't patronize you; say something stupid--I'll be all over you as I know you'd be on me if I said something stupid.

Want me to be a butt kisser, I can do that, too. More fun the way we have it, don't you think?

Your friend,

Tom

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#810698 - 03/12/04 06:20 PM Re: Best Interests
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
On the other hand, personally, I don't reat you as some cardboard cutout liberal poster. Sometimes I'm mad at you, sometimes I love you, sometimes I hate you, sometimes you are a genious and sometimes, not so genius. Sometimes I tease you.
That's the only reason we put up with you! :3hearts:

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#810699 - 03/12/04 06:28 PM Re: Best Interests
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
All right kathyk, now I am going to call you on this one too. What exactly "provoked" Pique to say this:


 Quote:
Originally posted by Pique:
you are recommending that women be given one-sided information. not for the first time, i really have to question your medical credentials and judgment. [/b]
Your back handed way of justifying this by saying she was "provoked" will not wash. There was nothing that came before this that should have "provoked" this.
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Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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