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#810700 - 03/12/04 06:56 PM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
you know, i really don't like having conversations here after all, i've decided. there are much better uses i can put my energies towards. the benefits are definitely outweighed by the negatives at this point. i've got better things to do.

have fun. y'all.
Then don't let the door hit you in the butt, babe.

What is this - Drama Queen exit #3? Or did I miss one?

I stand by every word I wrote previously. Most of the time I say pretty much what I mean, and today is no exception.

Sorry if us folks is dumber than a box of rocks, honey, but I'll try to at least be plain-spoken.

Matt is entirely correct, this is an age of dispensation, and I feel fully sure I have fallen short of expectations.

Perhaps I can do better the morrow.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810701 - 03/12/04 07:21 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by bcarey: That's the only reason we put up with you![/b]
Dear bcarey,

I'm not always nice and I do so love to get a point in, but I could argue with any of you liberal girls till 2AM in some Russian restaurant off 9th drinking vodka and yelling "Bas Ah Shook!"

And we'd argue.

And as we left the restaurant I'd kiss you on the cheek and you'd refrain from hitting me (or maybe you wouldn't.)

And you'd turn after 50 steps or so and yell, "BASTARD" to me.

I'd, yell back, "BITCH" and you'd say "Kabul" (the Afghan restaurant on 9th.)

Next week.

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#810702 - 03/12/04 08:56 PM Re: Best Interests
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
PK stated:tell you what, apple. if you, tomk, jolly, larry, jbryan, dt, ib, and everyone else here wants to unanimously agree right now that there can be no further personal attacks in the coffee room, and no one's credentials or ethics can be questioned based on what they said, and every one of you will abide by that and in future be perfectly polite, then i'll agree to that, too.
[/b]
I don't recall making any personal attacks. I have questioned opinions, purported facts, slanted adjectives, etc. and made many off-topic smartaleck remarks but can't remember ever stooping to calumny. If I did and can be shown where, I certainly will apologize and ask to be forgiven. I require nothing in return.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#810703 - 03/12/04 09:57 PM Re: Best Interests
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
DT,

That statement was grafted onto the bit about questioning ethics or credentials in a feeble attempt to draw some sort of equivalence. The fact is, she would rather eat a bug than admit she was out of line.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#810704 - 03/12/04 10:40 PM Re: Best Interests
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
WHY did I open this thread. I have been avoiding it for THREE DAYS, and tonight I just couldn't help myself. Sheesh.

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#810705 - 03/12/04 10:50 PM Re: Best Interests
Matt G. Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/22/01
Posts: 3789
Loc: Plainfield, IL
 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
WHY did I open this thread.[/b]
Well, at least Katie and I were civil with each other. (BTW, thanks Katie for the kind words.)
_________________________
Sacred cows make the best hamburger. - Clemens

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#810706 - 03/13/04 04:58 AM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
And now I'm giving into temptation too, jodi. \:\(

gryphon posted (cited):
 Quote:
In the waiting room there were at least 20 other women. One was 8 months pregnant and said she waited this long to save up enough money [/b]
This is a very important statement. I'm surprised no one has commented on it. It seems to me that every single member of this Forum opposes third trimester "abortion", not even counting one of the most gruesome and much-highlighted methods of effecting it.

And here's a woman, a real woman, if this article is to be taken at face value, who waited because she couldn't AFFORD it! Says something about the system in the broadest possible sense. That there are those advocating life-choices for other people without providing the wherewithal to make them work.

How can these mothers obtain adquate pre- or postnatal care, much less child-care afterwards in order to work, and thereby avoid welfare?

And now we hear that even the "elective abortion" is a privilege only of the relatively affluent. That poverty itself, can be a powerful reason for delaying the procedure...to the sorrow of us all.

Be consistent, you who weep copious tears at the images of those starfish fingers no larger than a pencil eraser. You turn your backs on the blood and suffering which is the alternative in many if not most, cases of unwanted full-term pregnancies - the suffering of full grown conscious[/b]humans, adult and children .

Not to mention the suffering of the children as they grow up, with pain I have tried to detail in other threads. Then they no longer count. Now they are “post-embryonic” – and socially expensive.

And no, before you say it. Adoption is NOT the universal panacea. Most of these aborted babies are not in the “desirable” class of potential adoptees. And besides, think of how the system would be flooded with unwanted babies if overnight abortion were made unobtinable. Adoption! Get real. As if we had resources to care for our underprivileged and special-needs children today - more and more of whom fall below the poverty line daily.

It's like medical personnel on a humanitarian mission in, say, Ethiopia, saving the life of a kid dying of typhus, and then after heroic efforts – the orphan is sent out to face starvation again.

Where is the reality in this discussion? I find the conclusion inescapable that the most adamant anti-abortion spokespersons here*, are also the ones most removed from genuine care for the humanoid life forms of the mother, her existing children and the abused children who end up in the Foster Care system (and worse - if there IS a worse. .

Just let that cute little foot exit the cervix, to make it a full birth, and then it's "bye bye baby"”Enjoy your chance at life!” (And maybe we'll see you back here in fourteen years or so, giving birth to your own ill-conceived baby).

There are many ironies here. One of them is (my conclusion) that your investment in this issue is one of standing on principle rather than love...for these hypothetical[/b] children. And the rest is just words and rhetoric, as you dab your eyes at the photographic images of the pitiful thrown-away dolls which were to have been babies.

It’s so easy to tssk tssk and say ”poor widdle unwanted babykins...and then go about your business. A disjointed reality in which YOU don’t see the price you would have OTHERS pay, if your sentimental and sanctimonious pronouncements were acted upon...

I realize this is in many ways what is attributed to the pro-choice crowd, and I agree that many there DO find it convenient both to gloss over the meaning of abortion - and to encourage it in others facing this terrible choice.

But I see you bombasts on the moral high ground, wagging your fingers at us, to be the most lacking in compassion of all. I wish there were a special ultrasound the most judgmental and instransigent pro-lifers could be forced to watch - an ultrasound capable of looking into the heart and soul and body of the girl/woman undergoing the abortion. Then maybe they would realize what THEY are killing.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#810707 - 03/13/04 05:37 AM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
*Notes to and about the specific audience of “pro-lifers” here. [/b]

I think apple is certainly an exception – I feel how much she is torn in this debate, seeming to be sure of nothing except what is wrong with no inkling of what might be right. And a personal to gryphon – I know you have experienced what many would consider the ultimate test of your principles here and held fast. No one could call you a hypocrite.

And as for the rest of you, I can’t look into your hearts and see what is truly hurting you in this issue – a principle…or compassion for a real child. I have my suspicions, but in the absence of spiritual ESP, I will refrain from damning anybody to hell-fire, even if I believed in it.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#810708 - 03/13/04 05:39 AM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
To DrJohnnieMoon[/b]:

...who will, I hope, give me medical advice from time to time, despite our political differences \:\) (More welcome still, actually, would be a few Botox injections...) Besides, we're neighbors!

In my view, the discussion (euphemism) about this article highlights two things - besides, of course, acting as a match thrown into a keg of dynamite:

1) The difficulty of conducting disinterested, quality, scientific research in socially sensitive areas. Countless examples come to mind.

2) The lamentable lack of understanding of statistics on the part of many scientists and certainly the lay community...especially about medicine. And no wonder.

Not only are they given no education in statistical analysis in High School (which I think should be a required subject), but the news "industry" keeps itself in business, by continually quoting statistics to flummox the public and provide themselves with a scoop.

To be personal and specific.

I have a number of risk factors which increase my chance of getting breast cancer:

1) maternal grandmother died of it, contracted at a young age.

2) fibrocystic breast disease

3) multiple surgical biopsies and pre-malignant cll changes plus other conditions unearthed which pertain

3) first live birth after late twenties...and many more.

Each one, to differing degrees, as per MY reading, increases my risk of breast cancer by so many hundreds of percent that by my reckoning I figured - a few years ago - I must be riddled with cancer right then. Or it was just a matter of minutes, anyhow.

So I took myself to the Hershey Medical Center to consult with their top breast surgeon about prophylactic mastectomy. And we talked about these risk factors.

He explained to me, how the figures are a) sensationalized for effect b) not additive c) computed statistically using the assumption that a woman lives to be 120 years old ("bis a hundert und tsvantig!")...and a few other factors mitigating the meaning of the risk factors I had incorrectly calculated. (I did NOT have a double mastectomy - with reconstruction, of course, had I proceeded with it).

Likewise, John, here.

I assume that as with the others, this risk computation is based on this 120 year age limit, With that as a given, let's briefly consider all the other risk factors in the modern world which increase or decrease the development of breast cancer...Truthfully, just how much impact do you think this post-abortion over-production of estrogen really causes? That is, spontaneous OR induced abortions.

I dare say, it's a drop in the bucket so to speak, taken in the context of so many other influences.

Most women who contract breast cancer, so I've been told, do not even have any of the major risk factors for breast cancer (and you and I know what they are).

I'll bet you anything that, say, even three induced abortions* taken in isolation wouldn't even increase the risk of breast cancer as much as (for example) 20% obesity after menopause. As you know, the fat keeps those estrogenic chemicals in production long after the ovaries have shut up shop.

And by "in isolation", I mean calculating any increased predisposition to BC from abortion, without even factoring in the the substantial risk reduction[/b] of early childbirth and lactation, which the same population are also probably going to experience.

So I do think that even if true, the finding is a spurious and relatively inconsequential factor in comparison to the many others mitigating pro and con for the development of breast cancer. Don't you?

Respectfully,

Ariel

*This is not to say I advocate repeated abortion, which I certainly don't.
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#810709 - 03/13/04 07:40 AM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
*Notes to and about the specific audience of “pro-lifers” here. [/b]

And as for the rest of you, I can’t look into your hearts and see what is truly hurting you in this issue – a principle…or compassion for a real child. I have my suspicions, but in the absence of spiritual ESP, I will refrain from damning anybody to hell-fire, even if I believed in it.

Ariel [/b]
And what's the "pro-abortion" corollary?

And as for the rest of you, I can’t look into your hearts and see what is truly hurting you in this issue – a principle…or no[/b] compassion for a real child. \:\)

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#810710 - 03/13/04 09:15 AM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Some valid points, Ariel, but have you ever tried to communicate an idea with 50 words, instead of 500? ;\)

A couple of points:

1. Go back to the original article, and substitue the word cancer for abortion. The article is still fairly readable, and nobody would have objected to the Senator's call for more research.

2. By painting all children that are brought to term, as being throw-away kids within the system, rather than being aborted, you have painted a stark contrast that does not exist, at least not in the norm. All women sitting in abortion clinics are not uneducated, poverty level psychopaths, who will do their best to pass their lifestyle on to their children.

3. As to the lady of 32 weeks gestation, and her lack of funds...if she is that poor, she would receive more money from the government for having the child, than she ever would from aborting it.

I don't see money being the pivotal issue, unless it figures into the convenience factor.

4. Personal responsibility. We all make choices. Some are good, some are bad, but we are all responsible for our actions. When a woman has become pregnant through voluntary intercourse, I think she has crossed her Rubicon.

There are no "do-overs" in respect to human life.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810711 - 03/13/04 09:49 AM Re: Best Interests
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Areil, just a point or two of clarification. Not all babies will be throw away babies nor have multiple defects nor be born to poor, uneducated mothers. In fact, as pique stated just a few messages ago, most (or was it many?) of the women she knows has had an abortion, and pique's circle of friends and aquaintances aren't uneducated, illiterate women. The average aborted on demand baby is one rid out of convenience (lifestyle, money, mother's age, etc.) not baby abnormalities. The cry for adoptable babies here in America goes unanswered while we kill them in the womb.

As for the mother who had to save up money, I believe that particular case was not recent, but that doesn't change what I was trying to say. I didn't post those story snippets to advocate against abortion. If you reread my last paragraph you'll notice that I clearly stated, in response to John Andrew's assertion, "It's apparent that full disclosure with respect to abortions is not necessarily the rule." How many are young, or they don't want their boyfriends to leave them, or they are pressured some other way? How many are talked into it by the "system" (clinic, whatever) itself once they get there? How many only meet the doctor as he comes into the room 20 seconds before he starts work? Remember a few years back when there was a movement on to just put a day or two waiting period on there? Advocates said the woman should have a consultation with the physician, be given the proper information, and then 24 or 48 hours to consider. That would have been full disclosure. Not "Here's a packet of health brochures, a consent form, and a gown. Sign this, gown up, and get on the table. The doctor will be in here shortly."
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#810712 - 03/13/04 10:25 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
The whole controversy surrounding abortion baffles me.

On one hand the stridence and militancy of prolifers has the pro choice ranks in constant high-alert, armed and ready to defend what is thought of as a basic right. What I think is particularly damaging is the insistence that abstinence be presented to the very young as the only choice of birth control... You think a drunk couple of 16 year olds are going to keep that in mind. I get so irritated with Catholics in particular (I know them) because they will not acknowledge that sex is as normal as eating, altho far more consequential.


What prolifers have done in response, is to trivialize a horrific act. It's a choice....the health of mother however defined...Some of the things used to justify the right to abortion in this thread are insane.

We are atop a slippery slope. I remember reading an article about medicaid sponsored abortions for blacks only. Tomk mentioned the "gay gene" to illustrate the consequences of having the right to chose....and got blasted for it.

Personally, the whole conception of the notion of abortion is disgustingly nasty. Sperm goes in a hole, something happens and out comes a dead baby.

We should be able to societally convey the horror of killing ones offspring, while trying to teach some values that will embrace the fact that there are probably 5 - 10 over the counter contraceptives available and an act as gross as abortion should rarely occur.

Questioning the legality of the procedure has us still spinning wills how many years later.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810713 - 03/13/04 10:32 AM Re: Best Interests
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
4. Personal responsibility. [/b]
There is it in a nutshell, the whole kit & kaboodle.
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#810714 - 03/13/04 01:11 PM Re: Best Interests
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
4. Personal responsibility. [/b]
There is it in a nutshell, the whole kit & kaboodle. [/b]
Exactly. And personal responsibility requires the ability to make a personal decision.

Which is why the government needs to stay out of this mess and give women the right to follow their own consciences and make their own decisions.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#810715 - 03/13/04 01:24 PM Re: Best Interests
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Andrew:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
4. Personal responsibility. [/b]
There is it in a nutshell, the whole kit & kaboodle. [/b]
Exactly. And personal responsibility requires the ability to make a personal decision.

Which is why the government needs to stay out of this mess and give women the right to follow their own consciences and make their own decisions. [/b]
The decision was made when they decided to have sex. They could have chosen not to. They made a decision, took the risk, now it's time to live up to the consequences.

(The above is in reference to the majority of abortions, which result from consensual sex. Of course, part of the problem is that as a society, we don't force enough responsibility on the young man involved as well.)
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#810716 - 03/13/04 02:31 PM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Andrew:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Luke's Dad:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
4. Personal responsibility. [/b]
There is it in a nutshell, the whole kit & kaboodle. [/b]
Exactly. And personal responsibility requires the ability to make a personal decision.

Which is why the government needs to stay out of this mess and give women the right to follow their own consciences and make their own decisions. [/b]
Poor logic, John. Let's follow it on through:

I want to strangle my neighbor to death. I'd like to take personal responsibility for doing so, but the government has laws against it that robs me of my ability to make my own decision in the matter.

The ability to make a decision exists. The decision was made when they chose to have sex. You are trying to take the point of where consequences kick in and claim that point as being where the decision exists. A decision was made. Now comes the consequences of that decision.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810717 - 03/13/04 04:03 PM Re: Best Interests
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
I want to strangle my neighbor to death. I'd like to take personal responsibility for doing so, but the government has laws against it that robs me of my ability to make my own decision in the matter.

The ability to make a decision exists. The decision was made when they chose to have sex. You are trying to take the point of where consequences kick in and claim that point as being where the decision exists. A decision was made. Now comes the consequences of that decision. [/b]
Larry, you put it much better than I did.!
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#810718 - 03/13/04 05:26 PM Re: Best Interests
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:

The ability to make a decision exists. The decision was made when they chose to have sex. You are trying to take the point of where consequences kick in and claim that point as being where the decision exists. A decision was made. Now comes the consequences of that decision. [/b]
So, like so much else for the right, it all comes down to sex.

Good God, you guys are so obsessed with anything and everything sexual -- and most of it has to do with someone else having it and making sure they are punished for doing so.

I think the only people I know who are as obsessed with sex -- straight sex, gay sex, sex with animals, sex before marriage, sex duing marriage, sex after marriage -- are young males in puberty.

You guys really need to start obsessing on something else and stop trying to set sexual mores for everyone else.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#810719 - 03/13/04 05:41 PM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
That was stupid John, and you ought to know it. Tell me - is this how you support your arguments on those "high end" forums you participate in... you know - the ones we aren't intelligent enough to participate in?

Your entire post was nothing more than a childish rant. You know damned well what I was talking about. I don't care who has sex, where they have it, *if* they have it, or when. It isn't about sex, it's about killing babies just because you don't have the balls to take responsibility for your actions. In truth, it is *you* that seems obsessed with sex when you advocate removing the responsibilities that come with it from the equation.

I am not "setting sexual mores for everyone else" - if you want to screw your sister, I don't care. I just want *you* to take responsibility for the consequences of it instead of passing it off on society or making a child that results from it suffer because *you* weren't man enough to be responsible for your own actions.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810720 - 03/13/04 05:42 PM Re: Best Interests
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
It's not sex, John Andrew, it's taking responsibility for everything you do in life. If you are a life coach I should think you would know that.

Allow me to get personal for a minute. Just exactly what in the heck do you tell the people you speak with?[/b]
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#810721 - 03/13/04 05:43 PM Re: Best Interests
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
That was a nice rant, John, but it completely misses the point. I, for one, do not care who has sex with whom or what. They should be responsible for what whatever consequences result, however.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#810722 - 03/13/04 06:42 PM Re: Best Interests
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
That was a nice rant, John, but it completely misses the point. I, for one, do not care who has sex with whom or what. They should be responsible for what whatever consequences result, however. [/b]
And for people to take responsibility, they need to be able to have the right to make decisions to do what they feel is right.

So, we are right back to where we were -- women need to have the right to make their own decisions if they are going to take responsibility.

If the government takes away women's rights to make their own decision and is going to make the decision for them, then the government has taken responsibility.

But the right wants to deny the women the right to make their own decisions and at the same time demand they take responsibility.

You can't have it both ways, guys. Sorry.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#810723 - 03/13/04 07:01 PM Re: Best Interests
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Not trying to have it both ways. We disagree about what choices should be available to women who have gotten themselves pregnant. That is fine. We can have that debate but don't try to recast it as a bunch of right wingers' obsession with sex. that is intellectually dishonest.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#810724 - 03/13/04 07:34 PM Re: Best Interests
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
All I know is that the discussion got down to "If you have sex, you should be punished for doing so by having no further right to make a decision."

What else is this but another example of an obsession with how terrible sex is and how people must be punikshed for having sex -- unless it is the right kind of sex with the right kind of person in the right kind of place with the right kind of outcome?

The right simply needs to stop trying to dictate other people's personal morals -- and these mandated morals are always linked in some way to sex. The right can have any morals they want for themselves -- but it is time they step out of other people's lives.
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

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#810725 - 03/13/04 07:44 PM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by John Andrew:
All I know is that the discussion got down to "If you have sex, you should be punished for doing so by having no further right to make a decision."

[/b]
that is a pretty idiotic summation of the polarity generated by this issue. Don't mean to sound so snotty, but really.......
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810726 - 03/13/04 08:05 PM Re: Best Interests
PhJ. Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 170
Loc: Brussels
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
It's not sex, John Andrew, it's taking responsibility for everything you do in life. If you are a life counselor I should think you would know that.

Allow me to get personal for a minute. Just exactly what in the heck do you tell the people you speak with?[/b] [/b]
use condoms \:D
(sorry JA)

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#810727 - 03/13/04 08:53 PM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Nobody said anything about punishing people for having sex.

But if a couple has sex, they should be prepared for the consequences.

Why is that such a hard concept to grasp?
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#810728 - 03/13/04 09:40 PM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Let me get just as ridiculous as you are being, John. How far do we go in accomodating people? Obviously you think they don't need to act responsibly at the onset, and they need the option of killing a baby in order to properly be given a choice. Why not let them have a year or two to try out a new baby before they kill it? Obviously, the parents need to have a choice as to whether or not that baby is a good one. Why are we forcing parents to keep and raise the babies they give birth to? Let's not punish the poor mother by making her keep a baby that she now realizes she shouldn't have had. We need to give her a "trial period" to make sure she's going to like being a mother. Or maybe it's uglier than she wants. Or its temperament isn't what she was hoping for. Why force her to keep it when she could just eliminate it and have another one? After all - it's her life, and she should have a choice, right? In reality, it's only a matter of degree anyway, right? It's the *woman's* choice that is important after all, right? What difference does it make whether the baby is inside or outside the woman? Is their some kind of magical potion that gets rubbed on it as it slides out that makes it different once it's out? It's *her* life that matters, isn't that the whole point?

The problem you have John, is you place no value or importance on the life of the baby. Your value system is so polluted by leftist politics and leftist theology that you only see the mother. We are not concerned about sex, we're concerned about the babies. If all that was involved was the woman getting warts, then I could care less what choices she makes. But she isn't making a decision on her life alone, she is making a decision that will profoundly affect the life or death of another human being. You don't place any value on that, I do.

And don't try to belittle me because of it with snide, ignorant attempts to minimize my point of view to nothing more than ignorance and perversion while implying you are taking a higher road. Personally, I think my value system of considering *both* human lives is a morally and intellectually superior position to yours.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810729 - 03/14/04 10:43 AM Re: Best Interests
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
A fellow student of mine got pregnant a little more than 9 months ago (since she delivered the baby only recently ;\) ) Something went wrong with her pill. A difficult decision had to be made. She wanted to finish her studies of course, but with a baby to take care for that would be a tough job, especially if you know that she suffers from chronic fatigue syndrome. In the end, her parents decided to take care of the baby as long as was necessary so she could finish her studies and then start a normal life. I think they made a wonderful decision.

What does it say on the box again? 97% effective? There’s no need to say that this 3% ineffectivity can shake up your life pretty badly. You think you have it all neatly planned, and then suddenly something like that happens.

Now this girl was lucky to live in a family with no financial problems, lucky to have loving parents like that.

Imagine she would have been kicked out of her family and was paying her studies and her small apartment with money she and her boyfriend earned by working their butt off during the weekend (happens more than you might think). As an outsider it’s pretty easy to say that they have to keep the baby at all costs.

You say, Larry, that those who are pro-choice, place no value or importance on the life of the baby. Imagine that those in the last situation do not opt for adoption. What do you think would happen? That they live happily ever after?
Even if they would give their child up for adoption, she would still have to carry that child for nine months, and I don’t think you need John Moonlight to tell you that the mother doesn’t have 100% certainty that she’ll be perfectly healthy during these 9 months. Lots of things can go wrong. Possible consequenses : not being able to work for several months due to pregnancy related problems. What do you think will happen?
She’ll probably need an extra year to complete her studies, if she can still afford them after being unable to work for a long time, they might have to move to an even smaller and filthier apartment, her boyfriend might leave her because he cannot live in a way like that, …
IF the baby is adopted, it might live a happy life, though not in the family where it belongs, but there’s a big chance that the life of the young couple is reduced to a constant struggle for survival.
I think they should get an abortion and have a fair chance of living a happy life and starting a happy family, having children that can live with their true parents.
It’s not about placing value or importance on the life of the baby, it’s about placing value or importance on the life of everybody in question. An unwanted child can mess up someone’s life pretty badly. That fellow student of mine came to a wonderful solution with her parents but not everyone is that lucky. You want to force everyone to possibly mess up their entire life and possibly that of the unborn child because of bad luck with anticonception methods?

I’m pro-choice, what doesn’t mean I think the decision should be taken lightly. If there’s a fair chance of living a happy and normal life with the baby, then abortion should not be considered an option.

By the way, I have a similar issue here. My eldest sister has nearly completed her studies to become a midwife. She’s now (for her studies) working on premature babies. The parents have the choice whether the doctors try to save their premature child IF the chances of survival are considered small and if complications are likely (brain damage etc.). One of the major problems is that the lungs aren’t fully developed yet and that the child cannot breathe on itself. It needs to get oxygen, and enough oxygen to prevent brain damage. However, sometimes, for some reason, I don’t exactly remember why (I’ll ask my sister if I see her, or perhaps JohnM could enlighten us) the oxygen concentration is too high for eyes and ears, and a great deal of them turn up blind or deaf or even both, not to mention that many of them do end up with brain damage due to lack of oxygen. What kind of life will they have? Should life be saved at all costs here too?
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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