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#810730 - 03/14/04 02:03 PM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
Nunatex,
You're likely to have your beliefs challenged here today by some forum members. I just want to tell you I appreciate reading your post & respect the expression of your opinion.

The condition you refer to in reference to blindness is ROP (Retinopathy of Prematurity), brain damage is HIE (Hypoxic Ischemic Encephalopathy) or possibly IVH (Intraventricular Hemorrhage) ..... two possible results, and deafness possibly could be due to toxic levels resulting from Gentamicin/other aminoglycoside administration. Great progress has been made in the last 20 years to minimize/eliminate these & other problems associated with prematurity (at least in developed nations).... Your sister can probably explain this more fully to you.

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#810731 - 03/14/04 02:06 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Katie, I heard the funniest snippet on Prairie Home Companion today. It was a pretend ad for appreciation of nurses and was supposedly read by a nurse and went to the effect, "Appreciate your nurse, we know just as much as doctors do and we're MUCH nicer."

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#810732 - 03/14/04 02:19 PM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
kathyk,
I like Prairie Home Companion ..... We used to listen to Garrison Keilor when we lived in B'ham, AL. I hope others will be polite to Nunatex.

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#810733 - 03/14/04 02:24 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Well, he did have his baptism by fire here awhile back (pretty much an all out attack from the alpha males - about the ugliest thread I have witnessed here) and he seemed to have survived remarkably well. He's a trooper with a great mind.

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#810734 - 03/14/04 02:58 PM Re: Best Interests
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:

Imagine she would have been kicked out of her family and was paying her studies and her small apartment with money she and her boyfriend earned by working their butt off during the weekend (happens more than you might think). As an outsider itís pretty easy to say that they have to keep the baby at all costs.

You say, Larry, that those who are pro-choice, place no value or importance on the life of the baby. Imagine that those in the last situation do not opt for adoption. What do you think would happen? That they live happily ever after?
Even if they would give their child up for adoption, she would still have to carry that child for nine months, and I donít think you need John Moonlight to tell you that the mother doesnít have 100% certainty that sheíll be perfectly healthy during these 9 months. Lots of things can go wrong. Possible consequenses : not being able to work for several months due to pregnancy related problems. What do you think will happen?
Sheíll probably need an extra year to complete her studies, if she can still afford them after being unable to work for a long time, they might have to move to an even smaller and filthier apartment, her boyfriend might leave her because he cannot live in a way like that, Ö
IF the baby is adopted, it might live a happy life, though not in the family where it belongs, but thereís a big chance that the life of the young couple is reduced to a constant struggle for survival.
I think they should get an abortion and have a fair chance of living a happy life and starting a happy family, having children that can live with their true parents.
Itís not about placing value or importance on the life of the baby, itís about placing value or importance on the life of everybody in question. An unwanted child can mess up someoneís life pretty badly. That fellow student of mine came to a wonderful solution with her parents but not everyone is that lucky. You want to force everyone to possibly mess up their entire life and possibly that of the unborn child because of bad luck with anticonception methods?

Iím pro-choice, what doesnít mean I think the decision should be taken lightly. If thereís a fair chance of living a happy and normal life with the baby, then abortion should not be considered an option.

[/b]
The problem with your argument is it does not refute what Larry said. I wouldn't speak for him, but I might guess that he would say you are using the same argument of convenience.

What makes this issue so divisive is lots of people simply do not agree about when human life begins. Some people believe life begins at conception. I totally respect that, even though I cannot bring myself to hold the same belief.

If you believe life begins at conception, then no amount of rationlization, no matter how extreme, could justify abortion - ie the taking of a human life. Also, if you have that belief, you may think that the term "pro-choice" is just as politically motivated as "pro-abortion." Or, in other words, you might think "where does the unborn human have a choice here?"

For myself, I do not believe human life begins at conception. I have no problem with termination of an early term pregnancy. I also do not have any problem with counseling pregnant mothers about the emotional/psychological and physical consequenses of abortion vs. carrying the embryo to fetus and giving birth.

I have no argument with people who believe sincerely that life begins at conception. It is what they believe, and have no right to do anything but repect that belief.

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#810735 - 03/14/04 03:58 PM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
I appreciate your post Phlebas. As for me, .... I have, and will continue, to sit squarely on the fence concerning the issue of abortion, despite my Catholic upbringing. I continue to struggle with the issue of "What is HUMAN life?", and do have trouble considering a zygote, embryo or a young fetus as "human". My views have developed as I've had the opportunities, over 20 some years, to care for women post abortion, women undergoing fetal testing (for fetal abnormalities), many "healthy" premature infants & their families, many more "unhealthy" premature/full term babies born with congential defects/complications of pregnancy & their families, and most recently as a volunteer with pregnant foster kids/their babies. I really do not think I could function well as a nurse (or retired nurse, as I am now), and help these individuals if I held any definitive opinion re abortion.

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#810736 - 03/14/04 04:06 PM Re: Best Interests
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Nunatax

The few moments of orgasmic ecstasy, is it worth it?

lb

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#810737 - 03/14/04 06:21 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by katie: I've had the opportunities, over 20 some years, to care for women post abortion, women undergoing fetal testing (for fetal abnormalities), many "healthy" premature infants & their families, many more "unhealthy" premature/full term babies born with congential defects/complications of pregnancy & their families, and most recently as a volunteer with pregnant foster kids/their babies. I really do not think I could function well as a nurse (or retired nurse, as I am now), and help these individuals if I held any definitive opinion re abortion. [/b]
Oddly enough, I have done the same job. Not as a nurse, but I have counseled a lot of women that have looked to enter the Catholic Church through their RCIA program. A lot have had abortions and most are looking to enter the Catholic Church because of the opportunity to get (their words here not mine:) to get their "sin" forgiven.

There a lot of women out there with real pain for their aborted children. And from what I've seen it doesn't matter when life begins for these women. The first couple of monthers feel just as bad as the late termers. These women are DEVASTATED.

Many have been through years of counseling and psychiatrists and psychologist and drugs and drink and all the things our society has to offer and have come up wanting.

Women name their babies, and speak of them in the present tense. ("Jason is seven, now.") There's a hole in these women in the shape of a baby.

What motivates me to be anti-abortion isn't so much my own convictions as the convictions of the women I've talked to who have had abortions.

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#810738 - 03/14/04 06:22 PM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
If you made it, you take care of it.

A grown man, and a grown woman have responsibilities. And if one is big enough to make babies, one should be big enough to take care of them.

Or, if the choice is made by both involved, to give the child up for adoption, if that is an option.

While Nunatax's story is not uncommon, that is the way life is, and we do the best we can. All of us struggle with the decisions we make in life, some good, some bad. But we should do our best.

One's best, does not include killing babies for convenience.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810739 - 03/14/04 07:16 PM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
TomK,
I know of a girl who named her fetus and thinks of her due date as its birthdate .... She had a spontaneous abortion ( a.k.a. miscarriage) though. I also know a few teens who named the babies they gave up for adoption & also celebrate the birthdays. And yes, I agree some women are quite devastated with their abortion decisions. And some others, get on with their lives ..... I'm thinking now of the women who, post abortion, became pregnant & had babies (these abortions occured after fetal testing diagnosed fatal congential defects) ..... I obviously haven't gone "full circle" with this issue yet . I did seek a volunteer parish nurse opportunity (with pregnant teens) some time back, but ended up working in another program with pregnant foster kids instead.... as I still have problems with the RC stance on birth control. I have never worked in a walk-in abortion-type clinic (just with women experiencing in-hospital abortions), so I don't have this experience (especially with early abortions) to draw upon.

I believe our opinions can be shaped by our experiences relating to most issues (including abortion). There is nothing wrong with this. I respect your position TomK.

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#810740 - 03/14/04 08:26 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by katie:
TomK,

I believe our opinions can be shaped by our experiences relating to most issues (including abortion). There is nothing wrong with this. I respect your position TomK. [/b]
Dear katie,

Yes, we only know what we experience and that little extra that we feel in our hearts. I appreciate your words and I also respect your position.

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#810741 - 03/14/04 08:34 PM Re: Best Interests
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
TomK,
I'm off topic, but just out of curiosity, (& I know you're no priest), .... Can a baptised Catholic or RCIA candidate get this sin "forgiven" through confession ..... You know what I mean ..... the Hell thing?

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#810742 - 03/14/04 08:52 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by katie:
TomK,
I'm off topic, but just out of curiosity, (& I know you're no priest), .... Can a baptised Catholic or RCIA candidate get this sin "forgiven" through confession? [/b]
No priest here.

But, only God forgives sin. Anyone can get their sin forgiven if they are truly sorry. Pretty much you ask God, and if you are truly sorry he never says no. The price for the sin has already been paid for.

Confession, in the Catholic Church is a means of delivery of grace. The sinner confesses, God forgives and the words of absolution are given in the confessional.

Will God foive without the confessional? Yes. But from my experience, a lot of women that have had abortions want to hear the words. From just a pragmatic point of view, a simple "Your sins are forgiven," is worth twenty years of psychotherapy anytime.

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#810743 - 03/14/04 08:59 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
So, why not set up confessionals in abortion clinics?

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#810744 - 03/14/04 09:07 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
So, why not set up confessionals in abortion clinics? [/b]
If I didn't already think abortion was wrong before I met you kathy, your cynicism would surely convinced me of it's evil; if not for the morality, than at least for the aesthetics. It's ugly. \:\)

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#810745 - 03/14/04 09:08 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Larry, I'm still waiting for your revelations on Planned Parenthood.

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#810746 - 03/14/04 09:11 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
So, why not set up confessionals in abortion clinics? [/b]
If I didn't already think abortion was wrong before I met you kathy, your cynicism would surely convinced me of it's evil; if not for the morality, than at least for the aesthetics. It's ugly. \:\) [/b]
Not cynical in the least Tom. HOw many times do I need to say it: Abortion is a God-awful choice to make, most women don't make it lightly, and those who do, often suffer for it. So.. . if God is all forgiving, why not confessionals so they can just get it over with? Nothing cynical there - just pragamatic - like you with your decision to hire the cheapest labor available to churn your chemical vats - - no thought about the fact that it may knock off 10, 15, 20 years of their lives.

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#810747 - 03/14/04 09:22 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by kathy: no thought about the fact that it may knock off 10, 15, 20 years of their lives.[/b]
Soap never killed anyone.

And as far as abortion being ugly--it's ugly. If it wasn't killing it would have the moral wieght of a gall bladder removal. There's something more. Seen it: in the eyes and heats of the women that have had abortions. They all become fanatics, either in wanting their sin forgiven, or in pretending it isn't there. But, they're all fanatics. \:\)

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#810748 - 03/14/04 09:33 PM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:


Soap never killed anyone. [/b]
We hope!

What we know is that it is safer to have an abortion in a 3rd world country than to carry a baby to full term in the US according to this thread.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, √ēun (apple in Estonian)

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#810749 - 03/15/04 01:54 AM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Larry, I'm still waiting for your revelations on Planned Parenthood. [/b]
Be patient, my dear. I'm doing my research. Unlike you, I don't simply do quick scans before making my claims.

Besides - I have a life I live, and this has to fit into my discretionary time.

Trust me - you will be apoplectic.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810750 - 03/15/04 04:07 AM Re: Best Interests
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
To DrJohnnieMoon[/b]:

...who will, I hope, give me medical advice from time to time, despite our political differences \:\) (More welcome still, actually, would be a few Botox injections...) Besides, we're neighbors!

In my view, the discussion (euphemism) about this article highlights two things - besides, of course, acting as a match thrown into a keg of dynamite:

1) The difficulty of conducting disinterested, quality, scientific research in socially sensitive areas. Countless examples come to mind.

2) The lamentable lack of understanding of statistics on the part of many scientists and certainly the lay community...especially about medicine. And no wonder.

Not only are they given no education in statistical analysis in High School (which I think should be a required subject), but the news "industry" keeps itself in business, by continually quoting statistics to flummox the public and provide themselves with a scoop.

To be personal and specific.

I have a number of risk factors which increase my chance of getting breast cancer:

1) maternal grandmother died of it, contracted at a young age.

2) fibrocystic breast disease

3) multiple surgical biopsies and pre-malignant cll changes plus other conditions unearthed which pertain

3) first live birth after late twenties...and many more.

Each one, to differing degrees, as per MY reading, increases my risk of breast cancer by so many hundreds of percent that by my reckoning I figured - a few years ago - I must be riddled with cancer right then. Or it was just a matter of minutes, anyhow.

So I took myself to the Hershey Medical Center to consult with their top breast surgeon about prophylactic mastectomy. And we talked about these risk factors.

He explained to me, how the figures are a) sensationalized for effect b) not additive c) computed statistically using the assumption that a woman lives to be 120 years old ("bis a hundert und tsvantig!")...and a few other factors mitigating the meaning of the risk factors I had incorrectly calculated. (I did NOT have a double mastectomy - with reconstruction, of course, had I proceeded with it).

Likewise, John, here.

I assume that as with the others, this risk computation is based on this 120 year age limit, With that as a given, let's briefly consider all the other risk factors in the modern world which increase or decrease the development of breast cancer...Truthfully, just how much impact do you think this post-abortion over-production of estrogen really causes? That is, spontaneous OR induced abortions.

I dare say, it's a drop in the bucket so to speak, taken in the context of so many other influences.

Most women who contract breast cancer, so I've been told, do not even have any of the major risk factors for breast cancer (and you and I know what they are).

I'll bet you anything that, say, even three induced abortions* taken in isolation wouldn't even increase the risk of breast cancer as much as (for example) 20% obesity after menopause. As you know, the fat keeps those estrogenic chemicals in production long after the ovaries have shut up shop.

And by "in isolation", I mean calculating any increased predisposition to BC from abortion, without even factoring in the the substantial risk reduction[/b] of early childbirth and lactation, which the same population are also probably going to experience.

So I do think that even if true, the finding is a spurious and relatively inconsequential factor in comparison to the many others mitigating pro and con for the development of breast cancer. Don't you?

Respectfully,

Ariel

*This is not to say I advocate repeated abortion, which I certainly don't. [/b]
Ok, Ariel.
So the next time I do a lumbar puncture on a patient(probably in about 12 hours when I start my next shift) I won't tell him/her about the possible complications such as DEATH, infection, paralysis, and DEATH, because after-all, the chances are pretty slim.
The next time I place a subclavian line I won't tell the patient about the chances of a pneumothorax(collapsed lung), DEATH, sepsis, DEATH, or catastrophic blood loss because the chances are minimal.
The next time I start a patient(probably never, since I'm an ER physician) on Tamoxifen for prevention of breast cancer I won't tell her about her increased chances of endometrial cancer, DEATH, or DEATH because, afterall, the chances are rather remote.
Ariel, what is the worst possible complication of giving someone a tetanus shot?
If you answered DEATH you are correct. Should I refrain from telling patients the risk of complications because the chances are small?
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#810751 - 03/15/04 06:46 AM Re: Best Interests
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
Katie

We must confess our sins in order to obtain pardon; but we must see our sins in order to confess. How few of those who think that they have confessed and been pardoned have ever seen their sin!
... Coventry Patmore (1823-1896)

lb

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#810752 - 03/15/04 08:23 AM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Larry,let me save you the trouble. All I had to do was Google "Planned Parenthood" and "Evil."
Planned Parenthood Evil Evil Evil

I love the way writers like that one purport to quote someone and the whole sentence has just one word in quotation marks. Like this one:

Sanger believed that, for the purpose of racial "purification," couples should be rewarded who chose sterilization. (Birth Control in America, The Career of Margaret Sanger, by David Kennedy, p. 117, quoting a 1923 Sanger speech).

:rolleyes:

Even if this article is partially true (It's clearly not the pinnacle of unbiased writing), so what? Many (I'd venture to fathom even most) of our heros of yesterday have their skeletons in the closet. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, Lincoln held derrogatory views toward blacks, Martin Luther was an anti-semite, etc., ad nauseum.

So Margaret Sanger had notions about purifying the race - didn't most people in post civil ward US feel the same way? Most states had laws preventing mixed marriages and segregation was about as absolute as could be at that point. These weren't terribly shocking views at that point in time. Thank goodness for progressive, liberal thinking!

One of the points in the article I do share (at least in theory) is that limiting births to people who can properly care for their children might be the solution to the burgeoning poverty class in this country. Her idea of making people apply to have a baby really makes sense. You're planning to bring a child into this world - you damn well better be equipped to provide for it and give it a fair chance at life. Of course, that is a radical thought, and there'd be no way of implementing it in a democratic society, but the underlying goal, IMO, is laudible: Limiting baby making to people who will love and nurture their babies to hood.

So, horrible monster that you may think this proves Margaret Sanger to be, she remains a e to legions of progressive thinkers. You may try to tarnish her legacy with the outmoded thinking that has gone the way of Jim Crow (BTW, Larry, there was actually a person, named Jim Crow), but except for a few muckrakers and radicals out there, no one care. The greater good she did IS her legacy and it is alive and well.

Your itinerant Fanatic,

kk

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#810753 - 03/15/04 09:13 AM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Thank you for going ahead and admitting she was a racist. You have only touched the tip of the iceberg I am going to share with you, but your admission will lend credibility to my research. Did you find her ties to Hitler? Did you know she was espousing the "Master Race" concept years before Hitler, and in fact was closely involved with the founder and head of the German Society for Rassenhygiene [Race-hygiene]? Did you know that the motto of her magazine (Birth Control Review) was "A Race of Thoroughbreds"? Did you know that the name of her organization was originally the Birth Control League but was changed to Planned Parenthood over her vehement opposition, because the Nazi smell of BCL was so bad that they had no choice?

Here are a few quotes for your "progressive thinkers" to chew on from your hero:

"The Aryan stock today is the most given to birth control and it must see that it does not suffer internationally by the relative ignorance of inferior stocks."

"Ö in the interest of social progress or the permanence even of civilization, the intellectual classes should have more children."

"Not only is it our task to prevent the multiplication of bad stocks; it is also to preserve the well-endowed stocks."

"Our most pressing problem is to increase the birth rate from the superior and decrease that from the inferior."

"Birth control itself, often denounced as a violation of natural law, is nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, of preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives."

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro populationÖ"

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."

And as they say.....

You ain't seen nothin' yet......
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810754 - 03/15/04 09:18 AM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Did you know she's dead and the postitive aspects of her legacy live on?

Have fun with your research.

Oh, and just in case you forget to cite this article, which fairly categorizes the whole Hitler connection as internet, propagated hype - "repeat a lie enough and it begins to look like the truth" I'll cite it for you. Kind of puts the whole thing in persepctive.

NYU article explores Sanger/Hitler rumors

Don't forget to read her quotes (full sentences!) about how she deplored Hitler and his fascism.

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#810755 - 03/15/04 09:43 AM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Dr. Paul Popenoe was a leader in the U.S. eugenics movement and wrote (1933) the article 'Eugenic Sterilization' in Margaret Sangerís magazine Birth Control Review.

Ernst Rudin was director of the foremost German eugenics research institute (Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Genealogy, in Munich, Germany). Rudin's "Eugenic Sterilization: An Urgent Need" article was published in Margaret Sangerís journal, Birth Control Review. Ernst Rudin was founder and head of the German Society for Rassenhygiene (Race-hygiene), which gave Hitler his ideas of race purification, and who helped Hitler implement the plan.

Margaret Sanger appointed Lothrop Stoddard as a board member of the Birth Control League. Stoddard said that he had personally witnessed how the Nazis were "weeding out the worst strains in the Germanic stock in a scientific and truly humanitarian way." Stoddard even met personally with Adolf Hitler. William L. Shirer, an American colleague who had been in Germany since 1934, complained that the Reich minister for propaganda [Joseph Goebbels] gave special preference to Stoddard because his writings on racial subject were "featured in Nazi school textbooks. Stoddard claimed in 1940 that the "Jew problem" is "already settled in principle and soon to be settled in fact by the physical elimination of the Jews themselves from the Third Reich." Margaret Sanger made Lothrop Stoddard a board member of the Birth Control League.


The apologists can spin it any way they want - these are indisputable facts.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810756 - 03/15/04 10:02 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
Larry,let me save you the trouble. All I had to do was Google "Planned Parenthood" and "Evil."
[/b]
Benita, I like the way you carry on an argument in the absence of fodder.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, √ēun (apple in Estonian)

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#810757 - 03/15/04 10:21 AM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
progressive thinkers[/b]

When I get finished showing you the truth about Planned Parenthood, I will teach you the truth about "progressive thinkers".

Did you know she's dead and the postitive aspects of her legacy live on?[/b]

Being dead does not remove the underpinnings of the organization she left behind. As for positive aspects of her "legacy", there aren't any. But never fear - the current activities of Planned Parenthood will be shown.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810758 - 03/15/04 05:05 PM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
errorerrorerror
fooey
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#810759 - 03/15/04 05:19 PM Re: Best Interests
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Being dead does not remove the underpinnings of the organization she left behind.
Does this mean that you are going to revert to the lifestyle, good and bad, right or wrong, of your Indian ancesters? \:\)

Talk about underpinnings. I doubt you're living in a teepee!

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