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#810760 - 03/15/04 05:23 PM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
edited for clarity![/b]

Johnmoonlight
 Quote:
Ok, Ariel.
So the next time I do a lumbar puncture on a patient(probably in about 12 hours when I start my next shift) I won't tell him/her about the possible complications such as DEATH, infection, paralysis, and DEATH, because after-all, the chances are pretty slim.
The next time I place a subclavian line I won't tell the patient about the chances of a pneumothorax(collapsed lung), DEATH, sepsis, DEATH, or catastrophic blood loss because the chances are minimal.
The next time I start a patient(probably never, since I'm an ER physician) on Tamoxifen for prevention of breast cancer I won't tell her about her increased chances of endometrial cancer, DEATH, or DEATH because, afterall, the chances are rather remote.
Ariel, what is the worst possible complication of giving someone a tetanus shot?
If you answered DEATH you are correct. Should I refrain from telling patients the risk of complications because the chances are small? [/b]
No, of course you won't neglect to mention all these possible complications - and more. Because the liability crisis is such that everyone - not just MD's - are obliged to inform consumers of all possible side-effects of services or products they supply, for fear of being sued.

As we all know this has reached the point of the ridiculous. I saw a bottle of sleeping pills recently labelled - among other things - "caution! May cause drowsiness". And that's not even counting such items as the label on a child's Superman costume, "Caution! This cape will not allow you to fly! (Both seen in my household).

That's why we are perpetually signing disclaimers and permission forms (including on-line) which are so long, that any serious content is completely buried. No one has time to read them. (If I get another "Privacy policy notification" I will scream, regardless of where I am).

That's why likelihood of the consequence has got to be factored in, along with gravity, when one chooses which risks to highlight.

And I haven't heard from you, about the actual likelihood of the breast cancer risk in comparison to the many other factors at work.

When my doctors answer (usually in response to my direct inquiries) what the risk of a surgical procedure are, I want to know the likelihood - say per 1000 cases. And also whether they personally have seen or experienced such a complication.

As an aside: If the answer is too high - well, I am likely to go elsewhere, unless the risk cited is standard. I guess we all know by now, that the risks of certain medical complications, differ widely from facility to facility. This goes double for iatrogenic ones - such as staph infections contracted in the hospital!

So the question here - one of the questions - is about this level of risk. I realize we are speaking of a delayed consequence. However there are computer models which are the best way we have at estimating how many "excess cases" of a particular kind of cancer, occur because of various exposures.

Another important issue - and to my mind equally so - concerns the forms themselves. (I had meant to address this in response to gryphon's comments earlier).

What is the real-life utility of presenting a patient with a laundry list of possible side effects right before such a procedure? Especially a patient who may be a young minor and/or in distress.

Let me be clear. I do indeed, favor a waiting period. I favor a waiting period on ANY serious decision, and an abortion certainly[/b] qualifies. My God, we have a three day legal waiting period before committing to the purchase of a Kirby (or "Rainbow" now?) vacuum cleaner no matter what we have signed!

However - unless there is something I am missing - this waiting period should begin when the procedure is being decided on. Not as a surprise when the patient arrives at the facility, often from a great distance (and I believe this is the objection to it).


Just for the record, I think all abortion candidates should undergo obligatory couseling prior to the procedure (afterwards too). It's the content of that counseling which is the issue - and the basis of the controversy, in this thread.

Possible, relatively minor, frequent side-effects should definitely be highlighted. Serious, unlikely (depending on how unlikely) consequences should be highlighted. And also the "meaning" of the procedure (without subjective bias), should be discussed. Plus, of course, what to expect before, during and after.

It sounds like most of the girls/women we are hearing about, were not even prepared for it to be painful. How basic can you get?

There are two factors which should determine the content of the medical aspect of the counseling - in effect, the selection[/b] of which side-effects to highlight.

Likelihood and gravity[/b] - both modified according the stage of pregnancy the procedure is initiated.

And there should be a statistical formula for likelihood, along with a scoring for gravity, determining which warnings to issue. This risk discussion is both in fair to the patient, and, of course, legally necessary. Some - and I would not disagree - would add that it is also ethically the right thing to insist upon before the decision. It should NOT be taken lightly.

Indeed, I think this is pretty much how the preliminaries for most medical procedures go now - or ought to, anyhow.

The main point is - the selection[/b] of which risks to discuss should be objective (statistical) and not subjective (based on an agenda/point of view). Certainly extra care needs to be taken in socially controversial issues.

If such a VERBAL warning might be legally mandated in the future (and verbally is indeed the only effective way such warnings are conveyed), it especially needs to be determined according to these objective criteria.

It wouldn't be right for a relatively unlikely outcome in a controversial procedure to be highlighted over more likely ones, of equal gravity, for political/religious reasons.

So far as I am hearing, this increased risk from excess estrogen exposure (under these conditions) is most definitely in the first category.


Include it in the paperwork? Fine. The lawyers might even insist. (But it will be buried there with the usual mountain of other possible side-effects*)

Ariel

*Or even merely single reported occurrances which may or may not be related - as in any pre-surgical permission form or medication insert.
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#810761 - 03/15/04 05:35 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Ariel, once when opening a bottle of champagne to share with JF, I started reading the label warning aloud to him, and embellished it with, "Safety goggles are recommended as a precautionary measure." The amazing thing is, he believed it until I burst out laughing. I still chide him about that one. :p

Anyhoo, good post.

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#810762 - 03/15/04 06:03 PM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
If anyone is interested, I edited my lengthy reply to Johnmoonlight, for clarity - and to an extent - content. It's lots more readable now.

Sorry, but I can really only edit on-line. I just don't see the mistakes until then somehow.

A.
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#810763 - 03/15/04 06:10 PM Re: Best Interests
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Posted by kathy with a k: Ariel, once when opening a bottle of champagne to share with JF,[/b]
Ariel's posts are more like a couple of barrels of NA beer than a bottle of champagne. My personal opinion. :p (I love her too!)

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#810764 - 03/15/04 06:13 PM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
edited!!! It's 20 times as long! \:D
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810765 - 03/15/04 06:26 PM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
If you mean the first "post" it was a computer glitch. Notice it ended mid sentence?

And yes, I'm, sorry. It IS way too long. Ever hear the famous saying (Virginia Woolfe?) "Sorry this letter is so long. I didn't have time to write a shorter one"?

That's why I went back and italicized the main argument.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#810766 - 03/15/04 06:29 PM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
It's fine! no complaints.. I was just laughing with you. (Insert head-slappin' smiley).. Should have know it was a mistake. \:\)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810767 - 03/16/04 07:45 AM Re: Best Interests
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Ever hear the famous saying (Virginia Woolfe?) "Sorry this letter is so long. I didn't have time to write a shorter one"?

Ariel [/b]
Blaise Pascal
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#810768 - 03/16/04 10:07 AM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
KathyK,

In order to support your argument, you seem to be making the argument that Adolf Hitler was correct in his views on the Master Race.

Is this statement correct?
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810769 - 03/16/04 04:15 PM Re: Best Interests
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
Well, I have done some research. The most recent studies are pointing against a relationship between number of abortions and breast cancer risk. Now before you jump all over me and say, "See, told you so..." remember what the point of the original argument was. It WASN'T whether breast cancer incidence is higher in women who have undergone abortions. It WAS whether or not this info is getting to the patients.
So I do apologize for the info regarding breast cancer risk but I still firmly believe that a woman is not told of long-term risks associated with abortion. These studies showing no relation are very recent(2003) and I have been out of family practice for almost a year. Therefore, the studies I am familiar with are from 1995-2002.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#810770 - 03/16/04 04:31 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
KathyK,

In order to support your argument, you seem to be making the argument that Adolf Hitler was correct in his views on the Master Race.

Is this statement correct? [/b]
I do?

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#810771 - 03/16/04 04:47 PM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Yes, you do - at least when a Socialist feminist is the one making the case for it.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810772 - 03/16/04 05:09 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Thank you for answering for me Larry. :rolleyes:

I would like Jolly to help with his logic leading to the statement he made, above about my supposed argument.

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#810773 - 03/16/04 05:12 PM Re: Best Interests
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
You're quite welcome.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#810774 - 03/16/04 05:20 PM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
Then let me ask you, Larry, making the case for what?

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#810775 - 03/16/04 09:55 PM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
Thank you for going ahead and admitting she was a racist. You have only touched the tip of the iceberg I am going to share with you, but your admission will lend credibility to my research. Did you find her ties to Hitler? Did you know she was espousing the "Master Race" concept years before Hitler, and in fact was closely involved with the founder and head of the German Society for Rassenhygiene [Race-hygiene]? Did you know that the motto of her magazine (Birth Control Review) was "A Race of Thoroughbreds"? Did you know that the name of her organization was originally the Birth Control League but was changed to Planned Parenthood over her vehement opposition, because the Nazi smell of BCL was so bad that they had no choice?

Here are a few quotes for your "progressive thinkers" to chew on from your hero:

"The Aryan stock today is the most given to birth control and it must see that it does not suffer internationally by the relative ignorance of inferior stocks."

"… in the interest of social progress or the permanence even of civilization, the intellectual classes should have more children."

"Not only is it our task to prevent the multiplication of bad stocks; it is also to preserve the well-endowed stocks."

"Our most pressing problem is to increase the birth rate from the superior and decrease that from the inferior."

"Birth control itself, often denounced as a violation of natural law, is nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, of preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives."

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population…"

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race."

And as they say.....

You ain't seen nothin' yet...... [/b]
Since KathyK neglected to refute Larry's post (which would be hard to do, since it's all true), she has to note the similarities in philosophy between Sanger, and Hitler.

The only practical differences are in the matter of executing their beliefs. Hitler was a bit more direct.

KathyK, if you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas.
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www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810776 - 03/18/04 04:08 PM Re: Best Interests
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by katie:
I hope others will be polite to Nunatex. [/b]
Don't worry, they always are! ;\)

Thanks for the explanation about the blindness and brain damage with prematures.

 Quote:
Originally posted by Phlebas:
What makes this issue so divisive is lots of people simply do not agree about when human life begins.[/b]
Phlebas, you're probably right.

However I'd appreciate some comments on the last issue I mentioned, especially from those who are against abortion no matter what. Here it is again (since it's almost "two pages ago"...) :

My eldest sister has nearly completed her studies to become a midwife. Shes now (for her studies) working on premature babies. The parents have the choice whether the doctors try to save their premature child IF the chances of survival are considered small and if complications are likely (brain damage etc.). One of the major problems is that the lungs arent fully developed yet and that the child cannot breathe on itself. It needs to get oxygen, and enough oxygen to prevent brain damage. However, sometimes, for some reason, I dont exactly remember why (Ill ask my sister if I see her, or perhaps JohnM could enlighten us) the oxygen concentration is too high for eyes and ears, and a great deal of them turn up blind or deaf or even both, not to mention that many of them do end up with brain damage due to lack of oxygen. What kind of life will they have? Should life be saved at all costs here too?[/b]
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#810777 - 03/18/04 05:44 PM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
You asked for comments....

We save them. We provided facilities to house them, when abortion was illegal (those institutions are still in place), and the parents could simply not care for them.

Man proposes, God disposes.

Sometimes a blessing, or a necessary burden, does not take the form of what we wish that it would be.
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www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810778 - 03/20/04 08:42 AM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
For those of you who refuse to believe the statistics about child birth being more dangerous to a woman's health than abortion, this article seemed apropos.

March 20, 2004
OP-ED COLUMNIST
Terror of Childbirth
By NICHOLAS KRISTOF

N'DJAMENA, Chad

Zara Fatim, a 15-year-old girl, was in labor for four days before her family loaded her onto public transportation the back of a truck and took her to the dilapidated National General Reference Hospital here on Tuesday. Her blood pressure was high, 170/80, and she soon lapsed into a coma. The baby arrived stillborn. Zara needed oxygen, but the hospital had none to spare.

"We have the knowledge to save these people," Dr. Grace Kodindo, Chad's first female obstetrician, said with a sigh. "But we lose them because of a lack of tiny amounts of money." When she started, Dr. Kodindo was one of only 2 obstetricians serving a country of nine million people; now there are 15.

Each year, 500,000 women die, almost one per minute, in pregnancy or childbirth in the third world. Childbirth is terrifying for most of the world's people. As a local proverb here in Chad puts it: A woman who is pregnant has one foot in the grave.

The world needs a war on maternal mortality, and the U.S. could lead that effort. Yet maternal care rarely gets the priority or attention it deserves. Partly that's because the victims tend to be faceless, illiterate village women who carry little weight in their own families, let alone on the national or world agenda. So I thought I would stalk the maternity corridors of this one hospital, a microcosm of a global challenge, to put faces on the victims.

Jacqueline Yelita staggered for three miles to this hospital after two days of fruitless labor. Doctors delivered a girl by Caesarean section, but a severe infection and poor-quality sutures caused the incision to burst open. Mrs. Yelita's bowel tumbled out, and her family abandoned her. Dr. Felicit Belingar, a young obstetrician, scrounged for sutures and antibiotics, pushed Mrs. Yelita's bowel back inside and sewed her up.

Instead of providing leadership in the struggle against maternal mortality, the U.S. has recently retreated.

President Bush has cut off the entire American contribution, $34 million a year, to the United Nations Population Fund, which organizes programs like training for midwives. That's crucial because untrained midwives sometimes do more harm than good: in eastern Chad, they deal with a breech delivery by finding two strong men to hold the woman upside down and shake her to encourage the fetus to move around.

Then there's the Reproductive Health Response in Conflict Consortium, which helps young mothers in countries like Sierra Leone, Angola and Mozambique. The Bush administration cut off all funds to the consortium last year.

In both cases, the administration cut the funds because those groups supposedly cooperated with China's repressive family-planning program. Mr. Bush is right to complain about coercive abortions in China, but why take it out on African women?

Some U.S. groups have made heroic efforts to address maternal health, starting with medical missionaries and including the Averting Maternal Death and Disability program at Columbia University (www.amdd.hs.columbia.edu) and 34 Million Friends of U.N.F.P.A. (www.unfpa.org/support/friends/34million.htm). But the effort to save these women's lives has never been the fad on college campuses that, say, the (misguided) anti-sweatshop campaign has been.

Fatim Adoum, a pregnant 15-year-old, lies unconscious on a hospital bed, gasping for breath, convulsing and slobbering. Her arm has a two-inch suppurating burn wound, and the doctors point to it grimly as a home remedy against sorcery. The delay in getting her to a doctor has hurt her, and now she needs oxygen, but it is unavailable.

In the corridor, the girl's father, Adoum Osman, readily admits that he treated her for sorcery after all, why else would she have gone into convulsions? He claims the burn was an accident but acknowledges that he treated Fatim by pouring "black water," made from charcoal used to write quotations from the Koran, into her throat.

Zara died on Tuesday night. Mrs. Yelita is recovering.

Fatim's prospects are still uncertain. But what is certain is that 500,000 women just like her will die in pregnancy and childbirth this year and every year completely unnecessarily unless we confront this challenge.

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#810779 - 03/20/04 10:46 AM Re: Best Interests
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Yes, and if you do an abortion with a peach limb, the patient will probably have complications.

You may want to discuss similar medical systems when referring to patient outcomes...
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#810780 - 03/20/04 11:20 AM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
I should have added that I didn't intend to prove any points with the article, except for the fact that it underscores pregnancy does carry many risks (Of course they're greater when prenatal care is lacking). All issues of morality aside, and focusing purely on the risk factor, which is what this thread was all about, no? If one chooses an early abortion, it will obviate all of the risks carried with a full term childbirth.

So when the woman goes to the abortion clinic, for those of you who are so concerned that she may not be apprised of all of remotely possible risks inherent in the procedure, I would hope that you are equally concerned that she be apprised of the alternative, and well-proven risks of carrying the pregnancy to full term - which of course are even greater for very young women.

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#810781 - 03/20/04 11:29 AM Re: Best Interests
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
All issues of morality aside, and focusing purely on the risk factor, which is what this thread was all about, no? If one chooses an early abortion, it will obviate all of the risks carried with a full term childbirth.

So when the woman goes to the abortion clinic, for those of you who are so concerned that she may not be apprised of all of remotely possible risks inherent in the procedure, I would hope that you are equally concerned that she be apprised of the alternative, and well-proven risks of carrying the pregnancy to full term - which of course are even greater for very young women. [/b]
borders on the absurd....
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#810782 - 03/20/04 11:32 AM Re: Best Interests
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
What's absurd about it, Apple? Please elaborate.

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#810783 - 03/20/04 06:24 PM Re: Best Interests
Nunatax Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 704
Loc: Belgium
Hey Kathy, congratulations on your 2000th post! \:D

Jolly,

You speak of necessary burdens, a discriminating term.

The people in Iraq had a burden : Saddam. Many of you claim that one of the main reasons the US invaded Iraq was to liberate the people from his horrible regime. So you relieved the people of their burden named Saddam.

Now many prematures are very likely to have no fun in life whatsoever. Some are likely to turn up blind and deaf and have severe brain damage, some might not even realise they are alive. They might have a life which is worse than living in the Saddam regime.
Its these childrens burden, and you dont want to relieve them from it, because you call it a necessary burden, because you think God has to take care of it. Its not about killing them, its about letting them go (about letting them be taken by God if you want), for their own sake. They carry the heaviest burden of all, the burden of not having a life. A few decades ago, we werent even capable of saving them, the God you believe in would have taken their life, maybe for a reason?

Mans power in the world of God has been growing all the time. In the past, dissection of the human body was prohibited by the church, presumably because God didnt want us to do it? If it had not been for Vesalius or someone else who had ignored the prohibition, surgery would not have been what it is now. Vesaliuss step was an invasion in the area of God, and that invasion went to the core of human life, as it was intended to save lives which would otherwise be taken by God.
Medicine is used to save ones life or make ones life better, sometimes medicine should not be used, because it cannot make ones life better, because it can only lengthen an unpleasant, often painfull life. Or in the case of euthanasy medicine should be used to help people die peacefully, without pain.
More invasions in the area of God have been made : IVF, genetic manipulation etc. I dont cheer on them all. I dont like the idea of genetic engineering for example, but my objection is rather ethical than religious.

I respect your belief in God, but Im of the idea that where faith often makes man strong, it can also make him incredibly weak. I think sometimes you got to look past God, God is the easy way on this issue. Just saying that God will take care of it isnt good enough for me.

I believe with abortion its the same. If an unborn child is unlikely to have a fair chance in life, then abortion is a valid option, certainly if it prevents that the couple in question has to live under a bridge so to speak. Abortion might give a couple the chance of starting a happy family instead of one that has to live in poverty all the time. You can compare it to the war in Iraq : the thousands that do not live now because of the war, have prevented more to get killed under the regime of Saddam, these are your own words.

And what about death penalty and euthanasy?
_________________________
Some can tell you to go to hell in such a manner that you would think you might actually enjoy the trip, but that is far more polite than civil - JBryan

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#810784 - 03/20/04 06:31 PM Re: Best Interests
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Nunatax, In cases where there there the baby is going to be born with severe handicaps, you may have a good argument there. However, most pro-lifers main concern aren't with abortions for medical purposes, but those that are performed for convenience. Which is the case for the majority of abortions performed.
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Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#810785 - 03/20/04 07:55 PM Re: Best Interests
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Nunatax:
Many of you claim that one of the main reasons the US invaded Iraq was to liberate the people from [Saddam's] horrible regime.[/b]
I may be wrong, but I don't believe a single person has ever said this. Some, including me, have said that getting rid of Saddam was a good thing for the people, but liberating the Iraqis is not the reason we went. I'm not sure you can find a single post here saying it was.
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#810786 - 03/20/04 10:01 PM Re: Best Interests
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
kathyk,

Those stories are heartbreaking. We're so lucky in this country in that regard. Imagine having a shortage of OXYGEN to give a critical patient! And those young girls in hell...so many abandoned by their families.

Wonder how many had been through infibulation earlier on. Think it's the same territory.

Ariel
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