Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
136 registered (accordeur, Achilleas, ajames, acollins, 39 invisible), 1931 Guests and 16 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#811401 - 05/07/04 04:02 PM "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
I think we're going to have to stop saying the abuse was the action of a few.

Cindy

****************************

Red Cross Report Warned of Iraq Prison Abuse


The Associated Press
Friday, May 7, 2004; 10:34 AM

GENEVA -- The international Red Cross said Friday it had warned U.S. officials of abuse of prisoners in Iraq more than a year ago, shortly after the beginning of the U.S.-led invasion.

"Our findings were discussed at different moments between March and November 2003, either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions," said Pierre Kraehenbuehl, director of operations for the International Committee of the Red Cross.

He declined to give details of the contents, but confirmed that a leaked ICRC report to U.S. authorities, published Friday by the Wall Street Journal, was genuine.

The newspaper said that the 24-page report described prisoners kept naked in total darkness in empty cells at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison and male prisoners forced to parade around in women's underwear. Coalition forces also fired on unarmed prisoners from watchtowers, killing some of them.

In another incident, nine men were arrested in Basra and beaten severely, leading to one death, it added.

"Ill-treatment during interrogation was not systematic, except with regard to persons arrested with suspected security offenses or deemed to have an intelligence value," the report said, according to the newspaper.

It said that information obtained "suggested the use of ill-treatment against persons deprived of their liberty went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered a practice tolerated by" coalition forces.

The report was sent to the United States in February but represented a summary of the information given to U.S. authorities the previous year, Kraehenbuehl told a news conference.

He said the abuse of prisoners represented more than isolated acts, and that the problems were not limited to the Abu Ghraib prison.

"We were dealing here with a broad pattern, not individual acts. There was a pattern and a system," he said.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#811402 - 05/07/04 05:02 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (Matthew 7:3-4)
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

Top
#811403 - 05/07/04 05:40 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by EHpianist:
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? (Matthew 7:3-4) [/b]
Elena,

I thought you didn't believe all that stuff?

Top
#811404 - 05/07/04 05:42 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I think she got the beam and mote reversed. When you look at the abuses of Saddam Hussein it appears, to me anyway, that the beam should go in the other eye.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#811405 - 05/07/04 05:46 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
I'm glad Saddam Hussein blessed us with the right to torture. (Funny, though, we managed to do it before without him. Oh well, a little extra blessing never hurt. )

Top
#811406 - 05/07/04 06:35 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
CrashTest Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/23/01
Posts: 4111
Rumsfeld admits that he knew about this since January, and that there are videos and photos that are far worse than what we've seen. I wonder why this has happened? It isn't surprising that it has, but I still wonder what the root of it is.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/05/07/politics.abuse.main/index.html

Top
#811407 - 05/07/04 11:12 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
So, what do you all think....

Is it better to have all of this stuff released as quickly and thoroughly as possible by our own government now? Get all the pics and the videos out fast?

Or should we allow it to come out in dribs and drabs over the next few weeks as they are leaked slowly to the media?
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

Top
#811408 - 05/07/04 11:19 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
Personally, I do not think that we should release any pictures or videos that we do not think will be released by the press. The damage that they do is disproportionate to the events themselves, horrible as they are.

We may be past a point where any additional images are going to increase the harm because it can't get much worse.

And i think we should be forthright about what the other pictures contain and about our reason for not releasing them.

If on the other hand, we think the Washington Post has them anyway, we should release them soon and all at once.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

Top
#811409 - 05/07/04 11:36 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
By JAMES TARANTO


Abu Ghraib and the American Way
President Bush went on Al Arabiya television this morning and strongly denounced the abuse of Iraqi prisoners:

First, I want to tell the people of the Middle East that the practices that took place in that prison are abhorrent and they don't represent America. They represent the actions of a few people. Secondly, it's important for people to understand that in a democracy that there will be a full investigation. In other words, we want to know the truth.

In our country, when there's an allegation of abuse--more than an allegation in this case, actual abuse, we saw the pictures--there will be a full investigation and justice will be delivered. We have a presumption of innocent until you're guilty in our system, but the system will be transparent, it will be open and people will see the results.

This is a serious matter. It's a matter that reflects badly on my country. Our citizens in America are appalled by what they saw, just like people in the Middle East are appalled. We share the same deep concerns. And we will find the truth, we will fully investigate. The world will see the investigation and justice will be served.

NBC News has obtained a copy of the Army's investigation into the abuses, conducted by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba. Excerpts:

6. I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:

a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;

b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;

c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;

d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;

e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;

f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;

g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;

h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and penis to simulate electric torture;

i. Writing "I am a Rapest" (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;

k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;

l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;

m. Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#811410 - 05/07/04 11:41 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
Personally, I do not think that we should release any pictures or videos that we do not think will be released by the press. The damage that they do is disproportionate to the events themselves, horrible as they are. [/b]
I think they will have trouble releasing the videos of the rapes, the forced child homosexual rapes, and the dead guy packed on ice, though I'm sure FOX News would be happy to replay them over and over again.

So where does it do damage that hasn't already been done? One place -- and one place only -- right here.

One could, however, think of it as a "learning" experience.

Top
#811411 - 05/07/04 11:45 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
I have such a hard time accepting these....This is not what i think that my country stands for...and yet....I am also appalled that we even started down this road in the first place...

If Kerry would just keep his stupid mouth shut and stop blaming Bush as though he were the photographer in the prison, the real problem might just percolate enough to ensure Bush does not have four more years of misadventure....

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

Top
#811412 - 05/07/04 11:46 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
See my post quoting Rumsfeld about the videos at the end of January Press Release thread.

Bad. Beyond bad.
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

Top
#811413 - 05/07/04 11:47 PM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
So where does it do damage that hasn't already been done? One place -- and one place only -- right here.

One could, however, think of it as a "learning" experience.
[/b]
Shant, if you are right about that, then i say release them all. WE should feel and see the full story, but not at the expense of even more problems with our world "image."

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

Top
#811414 - 05/08/04 12:33 AM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
One thing we have to realize is that 'stuff' like this has gone on in every war scenario we've participated in. War is very very ugly. Hate builds and those who fight's very survival might depend on that hate.

We can judge. Until we have fought tho, we shouldn't. We should remember that today's shared internet/media experience is far different that what our predecessors experienced in WWII and Vietnam. We need to be careful that our self indulgent horrified pandering doesn't ***** ********* in the ***.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#811415 - 05/08/04 12:50 AM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
True, I think. hard to tell with all the ******* s


Every decade we hold ourselves to a higher standard and indeed we should. Back 200 years and.........go back 100 years and we..........and go back 50 years and we..........

Do we learn from our mistakes and our successes?

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

Top
#811416 - 05/08/04 03:52 AM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
EHpianist Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 1703
Loc: NY-Madrid-Newfoundland (rhymes...
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
Elena,

I thought you didn't believe all that stuff? [/b]
Ahh, like a good agnostic, only when it suits me! ;\)

Not believing in Christianity does not mean that I do not recognize good teachings when I see them. Did you know I was a Sunday school teacher once upon a time?

Elena
http://www.pianofourhands.com
_________________________
Schnabel's advie to Horowitz: "When a piece gets difficult, make faces."

Top
#811417 - 05/09/04 12:46 AM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
One thing we have to realize is that 'stuff' like this has gone on in every war scenario we've participated in. War is very very ugly. Hate builds and those who fight's very survival might depend on that hate. [/b]
Are you sure? What do you mean by "like"? I don't remember a single case of the kind of sexual humiliation that seems to have happened here ever being reported during the Vietnam War, by either side. I'm not saying it is "better" or worse", but I also don't remember a single case of war criminals photographing and videotaping their own actions and sending them to their buddies.

Are you sure? I sincerely hope, like most Americans I think, that what we have seen so far, and what we are soon to see, are just the actions of a few isolated psychopaths, and now that they have been found out, everything will be hunky-dorry. But I deeply fear otherwise.

I care about it not because of the war in Iraq or the Mideast. That's already over. We won.

But I now have to live next door to the victors.

Top
#811418 - 05/09/04 01:11 AM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
This is not what I think that my country stands for [/b]
It's not.

But what can you expect when these days it's considered OK to suspend the protections of the US constitution in the name of the "War on Terrorism"? The war that isn't a war, the war with no beginning and no end?

What can you expect when it's suddenly OK to ignore the provisions of the Geneva Convention because the president decides that this is a "different kind of war"?

And what else can you expect when the Commander in Chief considers himself a "messenger of God"?

We're better than that, and we will come back around. Meantime, I hope Bush keeps his finger off of "the button".
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

Top
#811419 - 05/09/04 01:20 AM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Shantinik,

Come on. There was far worse going on in wars just in the span of our memory. It is only the current state of technology that allows us to become aware of all of these things in such great detail. There are probably a lot of stories that could be told by Baatan death march survivors, for instance, that would make these accounts look like a frat house hazing. I can only imagine the thoughts that must be going through the minds of any of those survivors right now. I would have to think they would be simultaneously laughing and crying as the hear some of the more glib members of this board bandy about terms like "war criminal" in connection with these events. They must be thinking as I do that we are doomed. we are ****ed.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#811420 - 05/09/04 02:38 AM Re: "A Broad Pattern, Not Individual Acts" Of Abuse
John Andrew Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/03
Posts: 3041
Loc: Southern California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Miller:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jack Frost:
This is not what I think that my country stands for [/b]
It's not.

But what can you expect when these days it's considered OK to suspend the protections of the US constitution in the name of the "War on Terrorism"? The war that isn't a war, the war with no beginning and no end?

What can you expect when it's suddenly OK to ignore the provisions of the Geneva Convention because the president decides that this is a "different kind of war"?

And what else can you expect when the Commander in Chief considers himself a "messenger of God"?

We're better than that, and we will come back around. Meantime, I hope Bush keeps his finger off of "the button". [/b]
Well said, Steve.

I would add...

What else can we expect when those who disapprove of and argue against the few who have created this situation are told that our fight against those who have done this defined as a fight against our own country as if those in power are the country?

What else can we expect when nationalism is defined as patriotism and patriotism is defined as harming the country?
_________________________
You can be disappointed, but you cannot walk away. This fight has just begun. Senator John Edwards

Top

What's Hot!!

Trade Regrets:
Barry "Bear" Arnaut

(ad) Yamaha
Yamaha
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Thoughts on Sound Imagination and Tone production
by music32
11/24/14 02:02 PM
The DGX 650 Club
by beebop
11/24/14 01:13 PM
You must remember this...
by pianoloverus
11/24/14 11:00 AM
Best way to learn Czerny
by Medden
11/24/14 10:47 AM
Setting up the room
by cullam
11/24/14 10:18 AM
Forum Stats
77024 Members
42 Forums
159317 Topics
2340316 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission