I think it's great to see there are still people out there who are prepared to think outside the square and design something new. The piano playing fraternity is generally too conservative, which is why so many of us play music written by people who've been dead for a couple hundred years
The isue of tuning stability problems with wooden pinblocks was solved by the Beale patent system about 1920. Beale were an Australian manufacturer ( now available as a stencil). It utilises steel pins in a steel pinblock, and I can verify that mine , made cira 1928, still holds tune for upwards of 18 months without noticable slippage. I could take some photos if you'd like.
Congratulations on having the balls to follow your dream, and I wish you every success.
John

Compared to pretty much all new pianos I've played recently, I really like the sound on the 370 samples.
I happen to like the low bass on the 12'2" Rubenstein a little better, though.
And, I too would miss not having way more than 88 keys. What's the chance that a piano could be designed to include the entire General Midi specified range - C-1 (minus 1) to G9 (8 Hz to 12.5kHz - 128 keys)?
Or, even 1 octave chopped off each end (C0-G8 - 104 keys) would be better IMO than 88. I'm always running out of keys on my only-88 key, only 56.75 inch, 94-year-old upright that's ready for retirement (and needs to be replaced with a larger vertical, but alas my ceilings are only 8 feet high, AND my budget is around $350,000-$400,000 below the estimated price of the model 408.

apple:
It is difficult to give an indication at present, but you surely will be informed well in advance!


tarag:
Thanks! And yes, I agree – it has to be built, thereafter pianists and music lovers will decide…


John.G:
Thank you for the encouragement!
Yes, I would appreciate if you could make some photos of the Beale pin / pinblock system and mail them to me. I know about the principle of this system but have not had the opportunity to see a piano utilizing it.


88Key_PianoPlayer:
Extending the tonal range above c5 is mainly a material problem, at the acoustic piano. If you’d have strings shorter than the c5 (52-54mm), the striking point of the hammer gets too close to the upper end of the string and the traditional felt-hammer could not generate a clean and distinct tone any more, among other. Extending the scale lower than A2 – please see my previous comment.

A general consideration as well is the question, whether the majority of pianists would really appreciate and utilize an extended keyboard, or rather be disturbed by the fact that the keyboard is different from what they are used to play. However, as I’ve stated before, I do not rule out the possibility to extend the tonal range of the Model 408 at a later time, this would largely depend on the definite demand by pianists.

Dear David:

I want to greatly commend you on creating something based on ingenuity and need, regardless of the cost. As an acoustical designer, I have also created something along these lines - an electronic means to transform the acoustics of an entire room from scratch to replicate world-class concert venues. Since I normally consult on what I call "private spaces" (luxury homes, studios, etc.), I have created this for those who really appreciate the immersiveness of concert sound quality while playing, listening to or recording live music in the intamacy of their homes.

I bring this up, not to plug my system (which is called Concertino), but to illustrate the point that I did not let people telling me, "but who wants to have live musicians in their home?" or the high-price tag (that starts at $100K for design, installation and tuning) deter me from seeing my vision realized.

With over 6 billion people in the world, if I found only 500 people who are interested, I would be doing very well. My product, like yours, will never have mass appeal, but it's innovators like us designing the very high end solutions that balance those cheap knock-offs that are sold as commodities.

Also, as a case in point, I had one private homeowner client of mine that not only bought my system, but he also had a custom Steinway D made for his living room by a famous designer for around $300K - and he doesn't even play piano! Now I'm sure, like me, you would rather have customers who can fully appreciate what we have created, but there will always be those who buy something at the top end, just because they can.

Carry on!!

Sincerely,
Steve Haas

Dear David, your piano project is atonishing, surrealisric design is not the main deal but sustain, wow, such a soundboard really scream for precious seconds more than many grands. So, respecting to your queries:

1. Of course innovation makes sense, well, the evolution of piano transformation has been lasting for over 200 years or so. Therefore it has been come to believe that mechanical operation and essential acoustics of the piano is from being considered something not more permissible to improve, say, a nineteenth-century technology masterpiece. But that is now debatable from the technological progress David, and your 408 is the point.

2. The color for the Model 408? I would suggest wood natural color at first sight, but piano color is not a trivial deal, acoustic aural patterns of soundboard should determine such a choice... there's too much to say about this David.

3. The sound characteristics of the 370?

Looks like pretty corpous sound print, altough to have a real impression 48khz sampling is not usefull.

Anyway, keep it in, very good step ahead David.
goodbye.

p.s. I'm a piano theoretician, my website if you want review my work is:

http://www.pianophysics.com

I am a practical man and will give a practical response to your query.
1. There is little or no market for grands over 8' for home use, not matter what name or size or price.
2. There is VERY little market for concert grands in institutional use for brands other than Steinway & Sons, Yamaha, or Kawai. Market penetration in the U.S. for venerated marques like Bosendorfer and C. Bechstein 9's is very very small.

I'm always interested in seeing/hearing new ideas in pianos! Who is the CT based company your working with? (I've a couple guesses )

Pardon if this was already answered, but how the heck do you move it? If you've got the soundboard hanging out the side what's there to take all that weight?

I'd love to play both pianos, they look astonishing.

However, I doubt they could compete against a pipe organ, as some people suggest, because whereas a piano's sound decays over time, the organ's sound is constant. In addition, some organs are capable of such huge sound that I just can't imagine there being any real comparison.

I would suggest to pianists wishing to play with an organ that they make sure that the organist uses the softer stops on the instrument, rather than trying to bash their piano to pieces in an attempt to keep up. (Been there, done that, had a sore arm afterwards).

Mr. Klavins,

Just curious how much US$ the model 370 is? My apologies if you already mentioned the price (all I could find in these posts is the model 408 price).

Sorry, I'm not in the market for either piano, but I do love learning about unusual pianos, and I'll keep you in mind if I ever come across someone who is in the market to buy a piano that is more expensive than my house. I encourage you to continue your endeavors in piano design experimentation.

"Great spirits often encounter violent opposition from mediocre minds." - Albert Einstein

Steve Haas:

Sincere thanks for your encouraging words, Steve! It’s great to learn about your very special work, I took a look at your site; your idea, and your service is the same interesting as impressive! Since Milford is not far away from my location I plan to pay you a visit some day soon, if you don’t mind! I’ll contact you by email.


Francisco Lopez Pineda:

Thank you for introducing your work to me (us), Francisco, which I find highly interesting! If you don’t mind, I would be very interested to discuss with you some aspects of the grand piano action design; I’ll explain the subjects of my special interest by email to you, within the next days.
And thanks for your input on our project, I appreciate your thoughts!
Talk to you soon, I hope!


Marty Flinn:

Thanks for your input; I appreciate practical people, and their thinking as well! As for any potential market share of our concert grand pianos I do not worry at all – if the instruments hold up to what we promise (of which I’m certain), I don’t doubt that a number of people on our planet will appreciate them. Though it remains to bee seen how many, that does not and cannot influence my decision to implement this category of concert grand piano, anyway. Time will show…


CTPianotech:

At this point in time I’m not entitled to disclose details of our company setup and cooperation. It will be announced in due time.

As for the transportation of the Model 408, we will provide a special gear for this purpose, which will get firmly attached to the piano for the purpose of moving it.

Thanks for your feedback!


cosmic:

Thanks for your kind response; I’m sure you can play our pianos one day, why not?!

I never have supported a view that the 370 upright (or any other piano of our make) would compete in any way with the organ. I have just referred to the principle of fixed installation in the wall of a building, given the fact that under certain circumstances this would make sense and is possible, given the constructional principles of the Model370, comparing this to such installation in the case of pipe organs.
I consider this category of concert grand instruments primarily as an addition to the existing instruments, an interesting alternative which may attract a number of pianists, music lovers and concert venues, due to its very special and unique features.

Chad Twedt:

Thanks for your comment, and encouragement, and quoting the very true words of Albert Einstein!

The pricing of the Model 370 cannot be generalized, since it will differ from case to case, based on various specifications, among which the client can choose. The price may range anywhere from around 120K up to several hundred thousand USD, because this instrument type can be offered in many variations by means of size, visual design and technical features. We are working on the definition of these variations and will make them public at a later point.


Thanks again, everybody, I highly appreciate all your input!

Hello!

First, congratulations for attempting to build a better piano. I find your approach very interesting and I agree that the is room for improvement on today's pianos. I am also glad to see that the immobility of piano design of the last century starts to give way to some new designs, even if many are more concentrated on the inside design rather than the overall appearance of the instrument. However, let's not forget that a piano will ultimately be judged by the way it sounds and plays. Looks are only of secondary importance.

Here's my view on the 408 piano:
The design looks very nice, although being so avant-garde probably limits the buyer circles to those few who really like (post)modern art. Consider offering it with a more conventional case/look too.
I like the bronze, silver and tobacco versions of the 408 best.

I have listened to the 370 upright and have to say that the bass is quite impressive, while the tenor and treble sound comparatively weaker and stringy or nasal. It might be the recording though, because recordings seldom reflect reality closely.

Back to the 408: based on what I've read and seen in different piano models, with soundboards bigger doesn't seem to be better, especially in the treble. The soundboard of your 408 has a very large area exactly at the end of the treble bridge. Aren't you concerned that this might lead to a loss of energy in the high frequencies, which just gets absorbed by the very large soundboard?
What kind of sound board is it going to be, one made of wood with wooden ribs? Or some other material.
Will it have a curvature or be flat?
How are the strings going to be attached to the bridge?

@David

Are there any news with your ongoing projects (mIII, 408, smaller sized grand ...)?

Wilhelm

The latest state of David KLAVINS:

"At present we prepare to build the prototypes, the public introduction of this unique instrument is scheduled for the Summer of 2014."

So we have to be patient not less than another 2 years, but I´m not surprised about this new schedule, considering the many ideas David plans to implement into his project (... not least an advancement of the BROADWOOD barless design, rimless design ...). Finally, I guess it will be worth waiting.

I just saw this thread, and I know it's a revival of a thread from 2007 but I must say that this piano is nothing short of spectacular. I think it would look fantastic at the Sydney Opera house and many, many concert venues that have modern designs. Maybe not so much in a more traditional concert venue, but if it plays and sounds as good as it looks, you have got a real winner. If Schimmel can sell their Pegasus that is ultra modern but not anything new to offer in terms of musicality I would think that you would be able to market some of these pianos. You could also make this piano available for recording projects and I would bet you would have some interest in that area, possible sampling sessions, etc. Fantastic.

For a minute there I thought Mr_Kitty was back, but then I looked at the date on this five year old thread. I'm still waiting for Mr_Kitty's post of the Chopin Op. 10 etudes.

I note that the 408 cm is due to be issued in 2014, so only two more years to go. You have to admire the design and stylish look of the instrument, but as to the size, it is not likely any of us will be hearing it on a concert stage. How many concert halls have an elevator big enough to allow it into the building?