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You gotta be joking.....Having played most of the better present day Chinese manufacturers,along with most Indonesian manufactured pianos,I have yet to see any worthy quality contribution as for scale or construction coming out of Indonesia. GP1 and GB1 are pretty sad examples of future expectations coming out of Indonesia. Does one foresee Yamaha shifting assembly of their artist C or S series to Indonesia. Somehow I don't think so.....you never know what lies in the future
Having a strong bias toward high level restoration of vintage American pianos. If done right they can be superior to most mass production asian pianos but in reality it has to make sense as for $ cost.Therefore it will be cost prohibitive in this day and age to do a comprehensive restoration on a so...so average piano even though it being superior to a comparable mass produced asian piano.

If you've had an opprotunity to experience ex. Hailun's 6'5" and 7'new artist level prototypes, one can see the better Chinese manufacturers contributing more in scale design etc.than just competing for the best 150 cm baby grand for the $ in the marketplace. I gotta admit I can't even do a high level polyester finish for the cost that one can purchase the entire piano wholesale. In conclusion unless I see any Indonesian contributions other than Yamaha's low end mdls. they are are still at bottom of the asian totem pole as for piano manufacture and design.

That's good John, but mind the voltage. No one would want to see you hurt yourself cavorting over your ignorance of Asian pianos.

Pianopro's basic logic is that his brand Yamaha assures a certain level of quality wherever they choose to manufacture. I see nothing wrong with that line of thinking. On the other hand, his first post here was a warning about Chinese pianos due to his "having been burned by so many". From that perspective he recommended a CN116 for $3100, a Yamaha product built in, of all places, CHINA.

Hailun pianos sound very musical and play well. I've played lots of them. I like them. I think they offer a lot for the asking price. I also like the fact that the maker puts his name on the fallboard and doesn't step away one iota from the fact that his pianos are thoroughly Chinese.

Since you're on the Hailun thread, let me ask your impression of Hailun pianos from your experience playing them and looking at their construction details. I'm sure your answer will be most revealing.

I think they're past the 'prototype' stage.

The ones I saw at Frankfurt Messe [Wendl&Lung] were eye-ear popping.

Together with Brodmann, I believe a whole new generation of grand pianos is upon us....

Norbert

Yes reputations are earned over time, but that doesn't mean that everything manufactured in China is rubbish. iPods are made in China - and they seem to have a reasonably high quality standard. IBM Thinkpads are made there. Your computer mouse is almost certainly made there, and the battery in your laptop (if you have one). 86% of shoes sold in the USA are made in China, although only about 27% of clothes (although only about 6% of clothes worn in the USA are actually made there). And that's not just the low value/poor quality shoes and clothes.

Yes of course there are poor quality goods coming out of China, but there are also some very high quality goods, and assuming that Chinese pianos are poor quality because Chinese pumps or toys doesn't make a lot of sense.

John, I never said all was rubbish. What I am looking for is a cultural philosophy towards production. There have been so many well publicized failures, that call that philosophy into question. Whether it's dog food, toys, pumps, pianos,medicines it seems that the thrust seems to be to get away with whatever we can until we're caught, and then let the dance begin. And speaking of batteries in laptops, I thought that Dell recently had some catching fire because of faulty batteries. I hope that the quality improves because otherwise there's not much value in (relatively) inexpensive goods. My attitude historically towards the instruments has been "wait and see". If they achieve respect in the market for quality products over time, they will be rewarded, if not, they will be in the dustbin of piano history like many others before them.

Personally I have long felt that the question about "Chinese pianos" has never been just about "Chinese pianos" - but who out of about 200 Chinese manufacturers have greatest potential, are the most serious and are making the greatest committment to serious quality.

Hailun, to give one example,has long been a high quality parts manufacturer exporting their products - mostly action parts - to several prominent European piano makers.

Once someone gets near the top of the food chain, it changes the whole picture - generalities of sorts don't tell the story here any longer.

If anything, it allows for the fatal mistake - especially for certain other manufacturers - to ignore the development of things going on out there,something that can and *will* directly affect them in the future.

Remember,it wasn't "the English" who conquered Mount Everest - but one single person: Sir Edmund Hillary.

Rest assured that Chinese pianos are already or will have their own 'heroes' and 'gold medal winners' in a very short time.

Pity on those who continue to sleep and ignore the fact that the world is changing faster than perhaps ever before.

Or was convenient...

Norbert

Erm, actually it was a whole team of people, some of who were English, some New Zealanders (like Hillary) and some Sherpas. Hillary only ended up being in the final assault party through a lucky (for him) combination of circumstances. The 2nd person to set foot on the summit was Sherpa Tenzing, and Hillary spent the rest of his life working in the Himalayas building schools, hospitals, etc. partly as a way of recognising the Sherpa people. End of off topic rant.

Agreed, you didn't say everything was rubbish, and I didn't mean to put words into your mouth. My point was that China does make high quality goods too: in fact they are making what the rest of us will buy. If we choose to buy low quality goods because they are cheaper then that's what they will make. However they also make high quality goods when what the rest of the world wants is high quality. As Norbert said above, making generalizations about Chinese manufacture is not going to make for an accurate picture of the real quality.

And those Dell laptop batteries that caught fire: they were made in Japan by Sony.

Hi everyone,

Just to offer my opinion as a consumer regarding made-in-China pianos.

I think it is unfair to generalise all China-made pianos as "inferior". There must be good reasons why many established Piano makers manufacture some of their pianos in China, or at least some piano parts, which include Yamaha.

I can understand the concerns over the "quality" issue given the many horror stories about China products, from tainted toys and medicine to food products. Like most people, I will also be very wary should I decide to purchase a China-made product like a piano.

However, from an economic point of view and given how closely linked the global economy is, companies are forced to shift some, if not all, of their operations to low-cost countrries like China to remain competitive.

Does this make their products "inferior". This is debatable but I don't believe a company like Yamaha would like to ruin their hard-earned reputation if it does not believe it can maintain a high standard, be it in the manufacturing of pianos or piano parts. I am sure it must be confident of maintaining the high standard when deciding to shift its operation abroad.

As a consumer, this could mean paying slightly less for a quality piano. However, buying a Yamaha piano still cost considerably higher than other lesser-established brands like Hailun. In other words, we have wide choices. If we cannot afford a Yamaha, there are other brands that provide great alternatives for the $$! And paying less does not necessary mean you get "inferior" quality.

Earlier in this thread, I have been asked what my choice is between a Hailun and Wendl&Lung 122. I have finally made the choice and it is the W&L and I would like to share how I come to this decision (which may be relevant to some of the discussions about China-made pianos). Although Hailun and W&L are both made in the same factory in Ningbo, I opted for the W&L becos I still have some lingering concerns over a China brand (sorry for supporters of Hailun if I sound a little sceptical about the brand given the bad press about China products recently). As for the W&L, although it is made in China, the brand is still wholly Austrian owned and Peter Veletzky is the 4th generation owner which gives me confidence about its tradition (sort of buying some insurance). Also, my wife and I love the sound which is musical and clear. Also, the sound has a certain distinct characteristic. However, let me qulaify that this does not mean the Hailun sounds lousy. It is just that we like the sound better when compared side-by-side in the showroom. Meanwhile, compared to a Kawai K5 that my wife's nephew owned, I don't believe the sound is that "inferior" (just in our opinion). Mind you, we pay only about $3,800 for the W&L while the Kawai K5 cost almost $8,000!

Back to the perspective of a consumer, what we have are choices, choices and more choices. Yes, you can be assured of "quality" from established brands like Yamaha and Kawai, but you pay substantially more. However, the China-made pianos offer great value. A brand like Hailun that cost about 10% less than the W&L has a lot to offer although they may not have the history to convice everyone. A close inspection also showed that it is solidly built. According to the dealer here, he said he only decide to bring in the Hailuns after he is convinced of the leap in quality from their earlier models. I am sure, in times to come, things will change and people will be able to distinguish between well-made and poorly-made China pianos.

Keeferae,

Congatulations on the new W&L and for hosting this long-running thread with great objectivity and restraint.

Your choice came down to two pianos built by Hailun. That's testimony to their appeal. You chose the one with European management intervention and with a sound that appealed to you more. Perhaps that validates Mr. Chen's approach to letting his pianos into the market with many different fallboard names.

Your final comment is certainly true.

There will almost certainly be a shakedown in the future that will result in the survival of the fittest. As to retailers in the US, most offer similar logic as your dealer. If they sell a Chinese line, they express confidence in it. Some of the dealers in this forum begin dropping favorable comments about a particular Chinese line in the interim between a decision to carry it and the arrival of their inventory. Retailers who do not sell Chinese express a lack of confidence. It's predictable really. No retailer is going to say: "I took on this line because it has strong initial appeal at its price. I think it will work for me. I don't know beans about the long-term outlook but I'll let my customers find out one way or the other."

There is another aspect about Chinese pianos often overlooked.

We must not forget that there are other people watching this, being highly interested in this development: perhaps more than anybody else here:
*other manufacturers*.

Some of them shrug things off [the dumb ones...] others try to sidestep it by increasing the propaganda about their own pianos and yet others again, decide that the only way out is the "escape to the top of the top"

In my personal opinion, those who have chosen the latter concentrating only on Premium quality in each and every piano they build, will be successful.

As I said long time ago: "there will be only the best of the best left, everybody else will be right behind".

Pick your own king and queen among those top-top pianos - but few they will be in the end indeed....

Norbert

Point of clarification: I said the Hailun was the flavor of the day. I never said it was junk. Time will tell. I have become skeptical (as many consumers have) over bad experiences I have had with chinese pianos. My experiences with the Indonesian products has ben somewhat more positive. As I said with my first post in this thread, I was actually impressed with the Hailuns I played at NAMM.

Further, the Young chang pianos we had such trouble with at my store were made in China, not Korea. The Korean pianos from YC were far better.

From PianoPro: "The Korean pianos from YC were far better".

Heaven help us!!

Anybody a stockbroker here interested to discuss how the market was 5 years ago.....

Norbert

Regarding M&B's comments:

Must of us in this Forum are piano dealers.
Chinese pianos are available in 90% of all piano retailers. Everybody is in the same boat that's why nobody tells you the truth.
Why? Because is easier to sell a cheap piano to an uneducated costumer. In other words because they can take the line of less resistance and still make some good margin.
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I read this thread with some interest. I have resisted posting in the past because of my affiliations with Hailun and Petrof. Having been in the pianos business for over 40 years, 26 in retail and 17 in wholesale, I must say that the Hailun product is truly different with regard to Chinese pianos. The history of Hailun is fascinating.

This company started in the piano business by building parts for other manufacturers in Europe, Asia and America 24 years ago. They still supply high precision parts to many companies. In addition they produce finished backs and in one case whole pianos for 2 European manufacturers.

What makes them unique is the innovation that Mr. Chen Hailun has incorporated into their manufacture. Also, the scale designs are not cookie cutter pianos. The line has been designed by several of the most prominent piano scale designers in the business.

I do not want to get into a lengthy piano commercial here. My intent is to simply state that having been associated with many brands of pianos over the years, I am absolutely amazed at the quality of materials, the level of quality control and the value for the dollar of the Hailun piano line. One can not simply group all Chinese piano manufacturers into a single category. I remember when Japanese pianos were laughed at by the industry in the 60's and 70's.

Piano manufacturing is cyclical. In 1960 it was Japan, in 1980 it was Korea, in 2000 it was China. The focus of piano manufacturing changes and shifts to different countries due to labor costs and technological development. It will not be long before Chinese pianos in general will rise in price to the point that another country will establish itself and emerge as a source of piano manufacturing.

For now, Hailun is clearly the quality leader both in construction and in performance from China. Check the NAMM article in the PTG Journal in April.

Joe,

I can't welcome you here since you have been a (quiet) member much longer than me, so let me welcome you to posting here and remind you to fasten your seatbelt.

I am curious to see how your short (not lengthy) commercial will be received here by some of your industry brethren. M&B hasn't been around here for a while. He's probably too busy selling whatever it is he sells wherever it is that he sells it to 'costumers'. Maybe we'll see one of his pianos in the Dark Knight batman flick. But even if you don't lure M&B back to the thread, you may read some reaction to the line about "What makes them unique is the innovation......". Most of the reps here are somewhat complimentary to the lines of others. I really don't know how the uniqueness of Hailun will be received. Personally, in terms of value for money spent, I would not disagree with you at all.

In the lull before the storm let me ask you a question about this statement.

I would assume the first customer for whole pianos is W&L. I've heard that Hailun is building an Anton Petrof line for Petrof. Is that true and would that then be the second whole piano customer?

Turandot...thanks for the welcome. W & L is not what I was referring to - that is a line under the control of Hailun. My syntax was confusing... finished backs for Schimmel (May Berlin), whole pianos for Petrof under a different name.

from Joe Bednar
Wow! Your level of disclosure is refreshing. Thanks!

Joe,

Welcome. Great to see you here!

W & L is not what I was referring to - that is a line under the control of Hailun.
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Hi Joe,

Can I clarify. Isn't W&L under the control of Peter Veletzky but just that their pianos are manufactured at the Hailun factory?