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Topic Options
#81472 - 02/16/08 07:50 PM Re: Hailun pianos
malcolm1 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/09/08
Posts: 8
Loc: australia
Hi Mikhailoh
The Bernstein Name is owned by the company that I work for and were made by Samic, and identical to the Alex Stienbach.But because of politics and pricing the boss decided to put his name on a different brand (HAILUN). After visiting several other chinese factories, settled on Hailun as best for quality and price.
As far as I know, he is the only importer of Hailun in Australia. (Bernstein or otherwise) but then I don't go checking all the other dealers to see who's got what, its not what I do.
I believe Samic hung on to the Bernstein name, and are sold in other parts of the world, but not here.
Hope this answers the question
Regards Dave

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#81473 - 02/17/08 09:47 AM Re: Hailun pianos
Kenny Blankenship Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Northeast
I reiterate, and please read recent posts RE: Ranking, The Piano Book, Etc. We should stop referring the Fine book to folks coming to the site for unbiased, opinions. The source has "sold out" and shown to be tainted.
_________________________
Kenny Blankenship
Selling anything anyone will buy as the "Walmartizisation of the industry continues. (Still making a fair living and still having clients like me)

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#81474 - 02/17/08 03:20 PM Re: Hailun pianos
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 754
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Originally posted by malcolm1:
They are now using Hailun in one of the top Vianise concert halls, The first time ever for a chinese piano. [/b]
I think that's probably good marketing on Wendl & Lung's behalf (they're an Austrian firm based in Vienna, with a long history in the piano business, hmm). I'm not sure if the Vienna concert hall would have spontaneously chosen a W&L piano otherwise...
_________________________
John

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#81475 - 02/17/08 03:26 PM Re: Hailun pianos
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
When I asked the dealer he said Steigerman has dropped Renner hammers (at least from uprights?) due to cost.They need to lower their cost.
Not true in our case. We order and stock all of ours *with* Renners.

Norbert \:o
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#81476 - 02/18/08 01:31 AM Re: Hailun pianos
Dino_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/02
Posts: 111
Loc: So. Cal.
Frank,

I am disappointed at your comments. They seem kind o’ silly to me.

You stated that when you

 Quote:
asked the dealer he said Steigerman has dropped Renner hammers (at least from uprights?) due to cost. They need to lower their cost.
I don’t believe that was the dealers actual quote but regardless, I don’t think that we “need” to lower our costs. Of course we are always trying to offer the best product we can and be the best value possible. I guess Heintzman does not share this philosophy?

 Quote:
Do they give dealers an option on parts reflective of cost?
I don't know.
Well of course we charge more for pianos with Renner hammers than for those ordered without. We don’t have big enough margins to cover such extra expenses. One can only assume from your statement that Heintzman throws in Renner hammers for free. Profits must be good eh?


 Quote:
Does that mean a consumer must now go into every detail to "see" what they are paying for?
Maybe.
There is no deception here Frank and I am disappointed that you would infer otherwise. Our website plainly states that the vertical pianos are available with Renner or Japanese made hammers. I see that your website also states that “Renner hammers are available" for your vertical pianos.
 Quote:
Does that mean a consumer must now go into every detail to "see" what they are paying for?[/b]
;)

Too bad we both have the time to be reading the piano forums...
_________________________
Dino Flacco
Steigerman Music corp.
U.S. sales and marketing

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#81477 - 02/18/08 01:50 PM Re: Hailun pianos
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
All ye who are criticizing Hailun/Steigerman Premium because of Larry's rating didn't actually read the book, did you? NOT that I'm standing up for him, as I'm appalled that he left Steinway in tier 1, despite its long track record of lousy workmanship. If a Chinese piano arrived needing as much work as a typical Slug---uh, Steinway--would they be anywhere above tier 4Z?

Fine's ratings are far from gospel. They are his opinion, some based on PRESSURE from one big name anyway, and others based on--what? No track record yet? He should have withheld those ratings altogether. You don't stick a piano in the bottom group just because you don't know anything about it yet. He felt forced to err "on the low side," for the Chinese, but didn't mind erring on the high side for Steinway, did he, even knowing their track record.

As per usual when someone comes up against the bully, they all too often succumb to pressure.

It would be interesting to know how many of those who so harshly ridicule the Hailun/Steig P's have ever even tried them.
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#81478 - 02/18/08 02:00 PM Re: Hailun pianos
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Te so-called recession must be rearing its ugly head for some out there....

Norbert \:\(
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#81479 - 02/18/08 02:13 PM Re: Hailun pianos
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
I was surprised to read how far out of his assigned customer territory Frank ventured to shop for his Steigerman.

 Quote:
I was at a dealer around Anaheim recently that carries Steigerman Premium and saw 2 same model uprights and one had Renner with red under felt and the other did not.
I guess that doesn't say much for you Norbert...that Frank would cross the border just to avoid buying his new Steig from you.

It's seems only fair that Dino should go to a SoCal Heintzmann retailer to check out the inventory. If he can't find one, probably Frank could dig one out for him. \:D
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#81480 - 02/18/08 11:14 PM Re: Hailun pianos
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
Frank is most welcome to come and do his shopping right here at home!

All genuine Steigerman, genuine Renner, genuine everything!

[and one hell of a deal for an old friend...]

Norbert ;\)
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#81481 - 02/20/08 03:06 AM Re: Hailun pianos
Glenn Treibitz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 541
Loc: Los Angeles/Burbank
 Quote:
Originally posted by Kenny Blankenship:
I reiterate, and please read recent posts RE: Ranking, The Piano Book, Etc. We should stop referring the Fine book to folks coming to the site for unbiased, opinions. The source has "sold out" and shown to be tainted. [/b]
I agree with Kenny. Fine's "Piano Book" is full of very biased opinions that are his own, and he is entitled, but they are opinions none the less. I think we have all sold pianos that his book both helps and hurts. In many ways Fine is a like a film critic, except he has a kind of monopoly on the whole industry. Imagine if Rodger Ebert were the only film critic and his opinion alone was the only one that perspective film goers were told to read. ( At least Ebert sees all of the films himself before he writes his opinions about them. Where as fine does not see every piano company's latest offerings that he writes about.)The book is good as a general overview only, but In my opinion his book confuses people more than it helps, and eventually everyone spins his book the way they want anyway.
_________________________
Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Kurzweil, Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai

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#81482 - 02/21/08 12:26 PM Re: Hailun pianos
Frank Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 379
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Dino,
I owe you an opology.
It was tactless and unprofessional for me to quote a dealer on the forum.

I should also thank you for pointing out a website error. I will notify our webmaster to make changes. We DO NOT offer Renner Hammers as an option.Our models are standard with components model by model and dealers cannot order for instance a 132 with Japanese Hammers instead of Renner. This is for tone and performance consistancy to enable consumers to shop and expect the same features and performance no matter which retailer they purchase from.Price has nothing to do with it.

Again, I apologize and will be more diligent in the future.

Wishing you much success.
_________________________
Frank Woodside
www.hzmpiano.com

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#81483 - 03/10/08 05:01 AM Re: Hailun pianos
keeferae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Singapore
Hi, I am new to this forum. I am looking to buy a piano and I have narrowed down to a Hailun 125 or Wendl and Lung 122. Both pianos here (Singapore) cost about the same. I like the overall tone of the W&L but the Hailun seems to have more presence. Appreciate if someone could provide me with some advise.

By the way, could anyone advise me how "Lung" is pronounced in "Wendl & Lung". I get two different pronunciation from two persons from the same dealership. One told me it was pronounced as "Lunk" while the other said it was "Loong".

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#81484 - 03/10/08 05:28 AM Re: Hailun pianos
JohnEB Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/20/06
Posts: 754
Loc: Belgium
Both pianos are made in the same factory, but it *may* be that the Wendl & Lung has some additional input from one or more European designers. However this isn't clear at all. You should ask the sellers specifically what the differences are as there may be some minor differences in materials, design, etc.

Lung in W&L is an Austrian name, therefore pronounced more like 'Loong' than 'Lunk'', but with the oo as a short sound, not long. I suspect the final G should be quite hard, so maybe 'Loonk'. And Wendl should probably be pronounced 'Vendel'
_________________________
John

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#81485 - 03/10/08 09:47 AM Re: Hailun pianos
diinin Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/30/07
Posts: 391
Loc: Indianapolis
Might be a tough choice between those two. Generally, taller is better, in which case the Hailun would win, but you should go with your heart on this one. Spend a lot of time on each, playing different pieces. Eventually one might start to emerge as a front runner. And then let us know what you decide, and post pictures AND recordings, okay? \:D
_________________________
Charles Walter Queen Anne 1520 (polished cherry)
Roland fp-4 (black)

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#81486 - 03/10/08 10:21 PM Re: Hailun pianos
pianoca Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 51
Loc: California
Reading from Chinese web articles I can report here that Hailun, while having achieved amazing progress in a very short time frame, started manufacturing piano only five years ago. Before that Hailun was a factory supplying parts, albeit key components, for other piano makers.

So it's hard to say about its endurance. However the initial quality should be very good due to its brand new facilities with equipments imported from Japan and Europe.

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#81487 - 03/10/08 11:16 PM Re: Hailun pianos
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
Both pianos are made in the same factory, but it *may* be that the Wendl & Lung has some additional input from one or more European designers. However this isn't clear at all.
JohnEB,

As you say, it's not clear. It's hard to imagine that the Wendl's in Singapore have gone from China to Vienna, been checked out, and then sent back to Asia. Is there anything in the W&L European website that mentions export to Asia?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#81488 - 03/11/08 01:07 AM Re: Hailun pianos
keeferae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Singapore
The dealer here said W&L pianos are shipped direct from the Hailun factory and not from China to Vienna and back to Asia.

Meanwhile, I have also tried the Hailun 122 (or is it the 121? sorry can't remember exactly). Was told that it and the W&L 122 are exactly the same. Just wondering how true can this be as it seems unlikely W&L will allow Hailun to produce an exact replica and sell at a lower price, which will undercut them.

In my personal opinion, it is unconceivable that W&L would not want to differentiate their pianos from Hailun's although they are made from the same factory.

By the way, when my wife and I tested the two pianos, their sound are definitely different. Although the dealer explained that the pianos (soundboard)are made from natural wood and no two pieces of wood are the same (accounting for the difference in sound), we could detect a certain characteristic in each of them.

Perhaps, someone could shed some light on this.

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#81489 - 03/11/08 01:33 AM Re: Hailun pianos
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Over a year ago, Wzkit filed this report from Singapore on the 'Hailun Anyone' thread. http://www.pianoworld.com/ubb/ubb/ultimatebb.php?/topic/1/17210.html#000000

 Quote:
I played both the Hailun and Wendl & Lung side by side in the same showroom, and to the best of my ability, I could discern no noticeable difference in performance between the two. Apart from the name on the fallboard, both pianos were basically identical in touch and tone. Neither were the price differences significant.
I have no facts to back me up on this, but I think it's possible that Wendl&Lung in Europe does not have a stake in the Hailun pianos that are branded W&L in Asia. It's possible that use of the name in Asia is simply part of the marketing agreement between Hailun the maker and its European client W&L.

Some of the marketing practices of the Chinese makers are hard (for Westerners) to understand, but you can pretty much assume that when the bargain was struck Hailun brought quality manufacture at a reasonable price to the table and W&L brought technical and design expertise along with an entry to the European market.

My guess is that if Hailun is supplying pianos with identical components under both names in Asia, they have simply voiced them differently at the factory, or the dealer has done so himself. I think that's a more likely reason for the two you sampled sounding different than the dealer's comment about no two soundboards being identical.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#81490 - 03/11/08 02:40 AM Re: Hailun pianos
Glenn Treibitz Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 541
Loc: Los Angeles/Burbank
I visited the factory 18 months ago and the pianos are made side by side. They were then basically the same. IMO I think they are both funny sounding names in English, so take you pick, enee meanie minie moe.
_________________________
Glenn Treibitz

Hollywood Piano Co. - Est.1928
http://www.hollywoodpiano.com
http://www.facebook.com/HollywoodPiano

1800 MY-PIANO

Grotrian, Mason&Hamlin, Estonia,Schulze Pollmann,Albert Weber,Baldwin,Brodmann,Ritmuller,Weber,Hardman,Roland,Kurzweil, Used Steinway,Yamaha,Kawai

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#81491 - 03/11/08 02:52 AM Re: Hailun pianos
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Is there anything in the W&L European website that mentions export to Asia?
turandot,

the only link between W&L and sales in Asia I could find is W&L's subsidary (sales office) in Korea:
http://www.wendl-lung.co.kr/

They say it has been set up in 2005 in Seoul by their partner Sung-Hwan Park.

 Quote:
Just wondering how true can this be as it seems unlikely W&L will allow Hailun to produce an exact replica and sell at a lower price, which will undercut them.
keeferae,

Speeking in general terms Hailun and W&L do not compete eachother. The main market for W&L is Europe with it's 300+ dealers. In North America there are very few W&L dealers (I only know of one in Chicago and one in Québec, Canada).
Singapore must then be one of those exceptions; why they market both brand names is a mistery to me. But branding by Chinese companies is an issue that could be dealt with in a separate thread.

The biggest mystery in that respect for me still remains the (fierce?) competition between Hailun and Steigerman Premium in North America - why Hailun allowed (is still allowing) this to happen. Sometimes this is part of a marketing strategy though; allowing two brands to compete may sometimes yield as a sum more than if merely one brand would be on the market scene.

I also think turandot's guess that all might be down to some differnces in voicing at the Hailun factory is very plausible; differences in QC, voicing and perhaps some parts.

E.g. for parts I know that since about a year the W&L grands have cold pressed hammers which are made at the Hailun factory by an old Dolgen press which W&L installed overthere. I read nowhere Hailun would be using these hammers in their grands.

As turandot said W&L indeed brought design and technical expertise along.

The 115 Transparent upright and now the newly launched 110 Stereo upright are definitivaly Peter Veletzky designs.

schwammerl.

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#81492 - 03/11/08 04:03 AM Re: Hailun pianos
keeferae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Singapore
Thanks everyone for all the prompt and useful information.

By the way, I have been scouring the websites of W&L and Hailun. In W&L, it said the wood used in the production of the soundboard originates in the highlands of Mongolia. Only slow growing spruce of highest quality and endurance is selected. The same wood is used in the production of the soundboard brace.

As for Hailun, it said it uses Siberian spruce.

Perhaps, this made a some difference in tonal characteristics? I am no expert though and just trying to gather as much information as possible.

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#81493 - 03/11/08 09:56 AM Re: Hailun pianos
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
By the way, I have been scouring the websites of W&L and Hailun. In W&L, it said the wood used in the production of the soundboard originates in the highlands of Mongolia. Only slow growing spruce of highest quality and endurance is selected. The same wood is used in the production of the soundboard brace.

As for Hailun, it said it uses Siberian spruce.
Siberian spruce is the common name of a tree species: picea obovata. This species is native to both Siberia and Mongolia. I'll bet you a sixpack of Tsingtao that all the trees being used come from the same forest. If there is a difference, and I doubt that there is, that difference would occur after the wood has been graded.

If the client (W&L) wishes to pay a premium in their contract for the highest grade of the maker's (Hailun) woodstock, then it's conceivable that W&L could have more carefully selected stock. In this case I don't think it's likely.

Voicing may seem like a minor detail, but believe me, the resulting difference from different voicing can be huge. Since the tone of a piano also affects the player's perception of touch, two pianos can seem worlds apart simply based on how they are voiced.
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#81494 - 03/29/08 11:33 PM Re: Hailun pianos
Mario Bruneau Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/06
Posts: 133
Loc: Québec, Canada
Hi everyone,

You guys make me work late at night. I don't spend too much time here for I don't have too much time available.

Anyway, I tought I'de plunge into this thread.

I'll quote and then react to my best understanding or knowledge.

swampwiz goes:

 Quote:
If, as it appears, that the Hailun is rated as 4A by Larry Fine, then I will have to change my opinion. This would make Hailun one of the better Chinese, but still not quite up to the standard grade Japanese (Yahama, Kawai). It seems that Perzina (also a Chinese) is rated higher.
I really don't understand people rating a piano according to M. Fine's book! Lary Fine might be a good "entertainment" book for someone interested in pianos but should not get on the way for a purchase decision for more than 20%. 80% should be decided by the "feeling" of the buyer.

Malcolm1 wrote :
 Quote:
They are now using Hailun in one of the top Vianise concert halls, The first time ever for a chinese piano
False. The piano in the Golden Saal in Vienna is a Wendl&Lung 178. Hailun built it.

schwammerl wrote:
 Quote:
Yes there is one (a pamphlet) - a very nice one - that says a lot about their technology. Unfortunately the only link I can provide is in French and was published by a Wendl & Lung dealer network in France/Switserland:

http://www.lesmaitresdupiano.net/w&l.pdf
This is the Wendl&Lung pamphlet, not Hailun's

 Quote:
The brand name connections (Hailun, Wendl & Lung, Steigerman Premium, Bernstein) is ever more becoming a mystery to me as apparently is also for turandot, especially in those markets (e.g. U.S.) where two brands (Steigerman Premium/Hailun) are competing on price, Steigerman charging a price premium of +/- 20% based on some cabinet differences and Renner hammers only?
As I have said before, here it is again:
Wendl&Lung is a piano manufacture in Vienna since 1910 and M. Peter Veletzky represents the fourth generation of the family being the grand son of Stephany Lung the doughter of the first M. Lung.

Ningbo Hailun musical instruments used NOT to make complete pianos and where focusing solely on the production of piano parts for numerous famous piano names. Then came the meeting between M. Hailun Chen and the people from Wendl&Lung Vienna i.e. Peter Veletzky, Ernest Bittner, and Sibin Zlatkovic. From that meeting, M. Chen decided to partneship with Wendl&Lung to build pianos for the first time. It was a mutual agreement. After this, M. Chen had to invest a BIG amount of money to design and build the High Technology Machines needed to make the Wendl&Lung pianos. Following this pressure, M. Chen decided to market some Wendl&Lung pianos under his own name “Hailun piano”. Furthermore, M. Chen could not pass away the opportunity to “expand” his market with the Steigerman Premiums “orders”

So we have Steigerman, a Canadian piano business who is great in finding the best manufacturers for their piano but Steigerman is NOT a piano maker. I don't think Bernstein is either and Hailun was not a piano maker before Wendl&Lung came to partner with them. This is the story I know and it does make a big difference to me.

M. Hailun Chen is a business man and as such, he as some decisions to take.

Kenny Blankenship wrote:
 Quote:
I reiterate, and please read recent posts RE: Ranking, The Piano Book, Etc. We should stop referring the Fine book to folks coming to the site for unbiased, opinions.
I couldn't agree more with you Kenny.

JohnEB wrote:
 Quote:
I think that's probably good marketing on Wendl & Lung's behalf (they're an Austrian firm based in Vienna, with a long history in the piano business, hmm). I'm not sure if the Vienna concert hall would have spontaneously chosen a W&L piano otherwise...
Refering to the piano in the Golden Saal in Vienna being Wendl&Lung rather than an Hailun. So you're right JohnEB.

keeferae wrote:

 Quote:
Hi, I am new to this forum. I am looking to buy a piano and I have narrowed down to a Hailun 125 or Wendl and Lung 122. Both pianos here (Singapore) cost about the same. I like the overall tone of the W&L but the Hailun seems to have more presence. Appreciate if someone could provide me with some advise.
The bigger the better keeferae! They are different pianos for sure. Just trust your heart and ears.

 Quote:
By the way, could anyone advise me how "Lung" is pronounced in "Wendl & Lung". I get two different pronunciation from two persons from the same dealership. One told me it was pronounced as "Lunk" while the other said it was "Loong".
Here is a shot at this:
When at Wendl&Lung in Vienna, I often hear them pronounce it like this (reed the following in English): Woundol ündth Looged

In English we pronounce it: Wendel and Long

This is NOT a joke! Don't laught at me, I'm doing my best to help the guy \:o

JohnEB wrote:

 Quote:
Both pianos are made in the same factory, but it *may* be that the Wendl & Lung has some additional input from one or more European designers. However this isn't clear at all. You should ask the sellers specifically what the differences are as there may be some minor differences in materials, design, etc.
Wendl&Lung designed their pianos. They draw the lines to it's shape. M. Hailun Chen did not know how to build a piano before meeting the Wendl&Lung team. Why is this so hard to understand? (I'm not picking on you JohnEB, just making a point) Altought maybe Hailun designed the model 122 before their association with W&L but I'm not 100% certain.

pianoca wrote:

 Quote:
Reading from Chinese web articles I can report here that Hailun, while having achieved amazing progress in a very short time frame, started manufacturing piano only five years ago. Before that Hailun was a factory supplying parts, albeit key components, for other piano makers.
Well said pianoca ;\)

 Quote:
So it's hard to say about its endurance. However the initial quality should be very good due to its brand new facilities with equipments imported from Japan and Europe.
My feeling (as a pianotech and pianist) is that when a piano feels good playing it and tuning-repairing it, it will last as long as any good pianos. Quality can be heard and felt.

Then turandot quoting JohnEB:
 Quote:
As you say, it's not clear. It's hard to imagine that the Wendl's in Singapore have gone from China to Vienna, been checked out, and then sent back to Asia. Is there anything in the W&L European website that mentions export to Asia?
Pure logic here. You're right Turandot, the W&L pianos don't go zigzag like this. What is happening thought is that W&L make sure they traine their "collaborators" personnally to service their pianos anywhere in the world! So W&L either went to Singapore to traine their people or they have their collaborators from Singapore go in Vienna for their training just like I did some time ago.

keeferae wrote:
 Quote:
The dealer here said W&L pianos are shipped direct from the Hailun factory and not from China to Vienna and back to Asia.
Exactly!

 Quote:
Meanwhile, I have also tried the Hailun 122 (or is it the 121? sorry can't remember exactly). Was told that it and the W&L 122 are exactly the same. Just wondering how true can this be as it seems unlikely W&L will allow Hailun to produce an exact replica and sell at a lower price, which will undercut them.
One cm difference, they could be the exact same thing with just cosmetic differences. Remember I just wrote that M. Chen is very proud of his pianos and at the same time, a business man and as such, he "tries" things and oportunities and then base his choices according to their success.

 Quote:
In my personal opinion, it is unconceivable that W&L would not want to differentiate their pianos from Hailun's although they are made from the same factory.
When there is no differences like the 178 and 161, it is the "way" of doing business or the marketing differences that counts. If W&L is ready to spend time an money training their collaborators to make sure their pianos come out in pristine shape is an example of "ways" of doing business I am referring to.

 Quote:
By the way, when my wife and I tested the two pianos, their sound are definitely different. Although the dealer explained that the pianos (soundboard)are made from natural wood and no two pieces of wood are the same (accounting for the difference in sound), we could detect a certain characteristic in each of them.

Perhaps, someone could shed some light on this.
I will give you my tech's answear. When we prepare pianos, we go thruu some times up to 20 hours of work adding some guts here, rounding the sound there, etc. During this timespread, if you would "try" the piano from one state to the next, you would think of it as being 20 different pianos! So like Turandot said, the voicing makes the most difference. The two pianos you tried where just voiced "differently"

turandot wrote:
 Quote:
I have no facts to back me up on this, but I think it's possible that Wendl&Lung in Europe does not have a stake in the Hailun pianos that are branded W&L in Asia. It's possible that use of the name in Asia is simply part of the marketing agreement between Hailun the maker and its European client W&L.
Although I don't really understand the word "stake", I could say you are right. The marketing part I beleive is truth but I can assure you that there is more to it. W&L trained their collaborators in Asia just like they do around the whole world. M. Hailun Chen knows that the "german" name Wendl&Lung is "appealing" to the growing income chinese people and he made and agreement with W&L to sell their pianos there. Plain good business.

 Quote:
(…)
My guess is that if Hailun is supplying pianos with identical components under both names in Asia, they have simply voiced them differently at the factory, or the dealer has done so himself. I think that's a more likely reason for the two you sampled sounding different than the dealer's comment about no two soundboards being identical.
Identical components yes, but just the ones that overlap in between the two names like the 115, 161 and 178 only. And you're dead on for the voicing accounting for the different sounds.

And lastly, schwammerl wrote:
 Quote:

quote:
 Quote:
Just wondering how true can this be as it seems unlikely W&L will allow Hailun to produce an exact replica and sell at a lower price, which will undercut them.
keeferae,

Speeking in general terms Hailun and W&L do not compete eachother. The main market for W&L is Europe with it's 300+ dealers. In North America there are very few W&L dealers (I only know of one in Chicago and one in Québec, Canada).
This is right, W&L are for Europe-Asia and Hailun and Steigerman for the Americas. I don't sell W&L in Québec, but I do sell Hailun.

 Quote:
Singapore must then be one of those exceptions; why they market both brand names is a mistery to me. But branding by Chinese companies is an issue that could be dealt with in a separate thread.
Just read what I wrote earlyer in this post. I may ad thought that for example, neither a 110 nor a 122 exist under Hailun. And oposite way, neither a 121, 123, 125, 151, 198 or a 277 exist under the Wendl&Lung name or fallboard.

 Quote:
The biggest mystery in that respect for me still remains the (fierce?) competition between Hailun and Steigerman Premium in North America - why Hailun allowed (is still allowing) this to happen. Sometimes this is part of a marketing strategy though; allowing two brands to compete may sometimes yield as a sum more than if merely one brand would be on the market scene.
Strategy is the key word here turandot. Why not try different options and check what gets the most success. And even if there is one option better than the other, why not keep them both? The more business, the better

Can I go to slepp now?

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#81495 - 03/30/08 07:12 AM Re: Hailun pianos
Kenny Blankenship Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 659
Loc: Northeast
Well done Mario!
_________________________
Kenny Blankenship
Selling anything anyone will buy as the "Walmartizisation of the industry continues. (Still making a fair living and still having clients like me)

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#81496 - 03/30/08 08:53 AM Re: Hailun pianos
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
Can I go to slepp now?
Hi Mario,

Sure you deserve your sleep after this long post. I hope you will come back to this thread once more as I would like to give some comments though.

As an owner of a W&L 161 and after having made quite some contributions already on this forum on W&L, Hailun and all the brother and sister brands I can hardly be suspected of being negative about W&L or Hailun.

On the other hand I try to stay allert and critical and not to hype any brand. After reading your post I find many of the questions some of the contributors to this thread as unanswered, some answers even appear conflicting with eachother.
This of course is not unusual if one tries to deal with that many quotes in one long thread.

As I counted the word 'marketing' 5 times and the word 'business' even 8 times in this long post, I am afraid if all W&L or Hailun dealers would continue talking about these pianos in this way, they could well end up creating a new Steinway/Boston case with a lot of marketing babble all the time and nothing substantial.

And please don't misunderstand me, I have nothing against marketing techniques - as I am a marketing man myself, be it not in the piano business - but on this forum members often expect answers that go beyond marketing.

And yes I do esteam highly W&L's marketing success in setting up in Europe a brand name with a 300+ dealer network. But that is as far as it goes.

 Quote:
Wendl&Lung designed their pianos. They draw the lines to it's shape. M. Hailun Chen did not know how to build a piano before meeting the Wendl&Lung team .....Pure logic here. You're right Turandot, the W&L pianos don't go zigzag like this. What is happening thought is that W&L make sure they traine their "collaborators" personnally to service their pianos anywhere in the world! So W&L either went to Singapore to traine their people or they have their collaborators from Singapore go in Vienna for their training just like I did some time ago ....
If I read all this my conclusion must be: "what a business and marketing machine that must be, W&L" if they controll everything from design over production up to QC by training people all over the world!
And all this with a staff of merely 23 people, about half of the biggest piano dealer in a small country like Belgium?

I would assume that indead they had an important contribution in the start up of Hailun building pianos with some original designs indeed (115, 110 Stereo and the contacts with Paulello more recently ) but that their actual grips on the Hailun business is more moderate.

I am even afraid that W&L is gasping for breath right now when it comes to marketing: there website did not change since almost one year now, of all the announcements they made in the pamflet you refered to of products that would become available in 2007 NONE are on their website right now and most of these are not available yet as W&L products: only exceptions 218 Concert Paulello (not on W&L's site but sold by the big Swiss dealer already) and the small 110 Stereo upright (information only on that same dealer's website). But nothing about the 198 Prof. III, the 218 Cncert I or the 277 Concert III.

 Quote:
Refering to the piano in the Golden Saal in Vienna being Wendl&Lung rather than an Hailun
Are we really sure this grand was designed by Veletzsky and even so, would this still not be a Chinese piano?

 Quote:
Altought maybe Hailun designed the model 122 before their association with W&L but I'm not 100% certain.
So all is not all that clear cut as to whether or not W&L designed all Hailun's pianos. Who designed the one's that are not overlapping with the W&L catalogue?

 Quote:
When we prepare pianos, we go thruu some times up to 20 hours of work adding some guts here, rounding the sound there, etc.
I hope W&L's/Hailun do not nead 20 hrs of prep when they come out of the box (at least mine hasn't had that many hours) with all those people trained by W&L all over the world.

 Quote:
Identical components yes, but just the ones that overlap in between the two names like the 115, 161 and 178 only
Does this mean Hailun then use inferior components for the models that do not overlap?

 Quote:
I don't sell W&L in Québec, but I do sell Hailun.
Why then mention all the time W&L in connection with Hailun and only show these models which overlap with W&L. e.g.
 Quote:
Salle de montre pour la vente des pianos Wendl&Lung - Hailun
.
I know building brand equity is not a Chinese specialty but the Hailun site doesn't need the W&L pictures and logo to promote their products.

So for me not everything is all that clear cut as one would believe when reading your long post.

schwammerl.

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#81497 - 03/30/08 11:30 AM Re: Hailun pianos
hotkeys Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/07
Posts: 788
Loc: Massapequa, NY
Congratulations on your piano Sweetkeys!

You followed your instinct, which is "listen"; a piece of advice I got from the chief piano technician at the Manhattan School of Music at the January piano party in New York (he is the tuner involved in the book "Grand Obsession", a must-read for all pianists). \:\)

- Mark
_________________________
...The ultimate joy in music is the joy of playing the piano...

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#81498 - 03/30/08 02:57 PM Re: Hailun pianos
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
 Quote:
Hi everyone,

You guys make me work late at night. I don't spend too much time here for I don't have too much time available.

Anyway, I thought I'de plunge into this thread....
Can I go to sleep now?
Hey Mario,

What woke you up? The OP on the thread apparently purchased a Hailun on Feb. 11th. "I ended up purchasing a Hailun." although it would be interesting to know what keeferae decided.

In reviewing all of your content I'm not so sure I saw anything new there except the fact that you now represent Hailun after your attempt to represent W&L in Canada didn't quite work out. Congratulations for getting that done! I hope it works out for you. I'm not sure, however, that Hailun Chen would appreciate your characterization of him as a businessman who had no idea how to build a piano until he put everything in the care of W&L. You might want to rephrase that item.

Regarding your comment about marketing...
 Quote:
Strategy is the key word here turandot. Why not try different options and check what gets the most success. And even if there is one option better than the other, why not keep them both? The more business, the better
....we shall see in the future how this pans out. In the short term I'm sure you're right that selling as many pianos as quickly as possible under whatever name has merit early on when you need to offset those considerable physical plant and machinery costs to start production. In the long term I'm not so sure that having your pianos positioned in the market under so many different names is the way to go. Since Hailun controls actual production, I would expect them to become more and more aggressive in marketing their own name even if they run into direct competition from their own distributor clients.

Anyway, it was nice that recent Hailun convert Kenny Blankenship had a chance to welcome you to the Loyal Order of Hailun Sales Professionals (at least I think that's what he was doing \:D ).

One thing you didn't mention directly is just how outstanding the pianos built at Hailun are for the price. Maybe it's good you didn't. If people stay fixated on the Fine rating, demand will be limited and the pianos from Hailun will stay affordable for people whose taste exceeds their budget.

Have a good sleep! \:\)
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#81499 - 04/13/08 10:28 PM Re: Hailun pianos
keeferae Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 54
Loc: Singapore
Hi Mario & Schwammer,

I must really say "WOW"!...........for the way you answer the various issues that this thread has thrown up. They are really interesting and informative.

By the way, I wonder whether anyone could shed some light about W&L 122 and the similar Hailun that the dealer here has pointed out to me.

According to a previous thread here, it was mentioned that both are similar and built side-by-side by Hailun in China. This is what the dealer told me as well at first.............then later he mentioned that the "only" difference is an aluminium plate that lies right below the keys. He even dimantle the casing to show it to me. He said this is patented by W&L.

Any idea about this? Does this has any effect on the sound?

Thanks!

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#81500 - 04/14/08 01:08 AM Re: Hailun pianos
Norbert Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
If every piano would have to undergo the type of analysis and mental dissection as Hailun just did, it could be thought of selling very few pianos.

By all accounts received so far, this is not exactly the fate Hailun is expected to suffer - any piano with sound and built qualities anywhere near this make, will do very well and most likely excel in the future.

The order books are full and this at least, is what should get the attention of those who whish to do well for themselves.

Let's see how long the nightmare of facing Hailun as your next local competitor in town will go unnoticed.

Or unpunished....

Norbert \:o
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#81501 - 04/14/08 02:59 AM Re: Hailun pianos
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
then later he mentioned that the "only" difference is an aluminium plate that lies right below the keys. He even dimantle the casing to show it to me. He said this is patented by W&L.
keeferae,

The dealers must be refering to the aluminium key frame which stabilizes the keyboard and warrants better regulation stability:

http://www.lesmaitresdupiano.net/w&l.pdf (see p. 3 - 'Chassis de clavier' - sorry French only).

schwammerl.

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