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#819047 - 06/14/02 11:07 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I sure will George.
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Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819048 - 06/14/02 11:07 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JohnC:
None of us knows if the government's handling of the Padilla case is within their legal rights or not, although it appears it may very well be. We should all be a concerned as to how this plays out. But based on what has happened and based on the information we have so far regarding Padilla, I think I'd rather err on the side of caution and detain him.

However, George, you can't have it both ways. One minute you are trying to blame the administration for not stopping 911 on the basis of the information they had (none of which anyone has shown to be sufficient to have know anything helpful). The next minute you want to condemn the administration for taking steps to stop a potentially similar attack. And as I noted before, they may well be within their legal rights.

Based on your attitude George, 911 could not have been prevented if we had all the plans and schedules in our hands months before. People like you would have accused the administration of wrong doing for arresting so many innocent Arabs before they had done anything wrong.

[/b]
Not true, JC. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime prosecutable and punishable under our laws. Bail need not have been set if they crime was egregious enough or the plaintiffs were flight risks. Had Il Duce's government focused on what was happening and the information they had, all of these men could have been arrested for conspiracy.

Our justice system is capable of dealing with all of this. Why aren't we using it?

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#819049 - 06/14/02 11:33 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JohnC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:


Not true, JC. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime prosecutable and punishable under our laws. Bail need not have been set if they crime was egregious enough or the plaintiffs were flight risks. Had Il Duce's government focused on what was happening and the information they had, all of these men could have been arrested for conspiracy.

Our justice system is capable of dealing with all of this. Why aren't we using it?[/b]
Sure, in this hypothetical situation we could legally have arrested and prosecuted them. And in the current situation it could be that the government is well within it's rights to persue the course it is taking. However, in both scenarios you would be (and are) the first to accuse the administration of misdeeds in handling the case(s).

It should also be pointed out that in WWII after interning (sp?) a whole race of people, the people of this country did not ultimately lose any freedoms. Holding one individual (especially with what we seem to know about him) hardly constitutes the wholesale selling out of our rights. I worry far more of the damage to our rights Hillary could do if given the power. To use a liberal term constantly bandied about here, that's scary!

Perhaps you think Bush is just arresting innocent people to take the heat off of himself. Like Clinton did when he bombed the Sudanese asprin factory to divert attention from his lying under oath. Well, George, only time will tell. But my money is on this administration having much more just cause for their current actions. But I can see how a Clinton appologist would share your views.
_________________________
There are few joys in life greater than the absence of pain.

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#819050 - 06/14/02 11:47 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JohnC:
Sure, in this hypothetical situation we could legally have arrested and prosecuted them. And in the current situation it could be that the government is well within it's rights to persue the course it is taking. However, in both scenarios you would be (and are) the first to accuse the administration of misdeeds in handling the case(s).

It should also be pointed out that in WWII after interning (sp?) a whole race of people, the people of this country did not ultimately lose any freedoms. Holding one individual (especially with what we seem to know about him) hardly constitutes the wholesale selling out of our rights. I worry far more of the damage to our rights Hillary could do if given the power. To use a liberal term constantly bandied about here, that's scary!

Perhaps you think Bush is just arresting innocent people to take the heat off of himself. Like Clinton did when he bombed the Sudanese asprin factory to divert attention from his lying under oath. Well, George, only time will tell. But my money is on this administration having much more just cause for their current actions. But I can see how a Clinton appologist would share your views.[/b]
JC
Granted, we do not know if they could have conected the dots. What we do know is that the dots were there and no one considered this a high enough priority to even read the memos.

All I am saying here is that had they done so, the justice system could have handled the situation under the then-current policies and the then-current procedures.

The internment in WWII? We had a delcared war and thus, when the war ended, the suspension of civil liberties end. Can you tell me what the trigger event will be to stop the current suspension of liberties? Do you know? Or are we to take the government's word for it -- be it Il Duce or the next President or the next one after that or the next after that -- for however long this government decides it needs to suspend civil liberties.

As far as Clinton versus Bush2 -- why is this even an issue when discussing our fundamental constitutional rights? There is a point where the discussion is no longer a partisan one and to attempt to make it one is to minimize the import of the discussion.

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#819051 - 06/14/02 11:53 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
I agree 100% with John C.

Derick
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#819052 - 06/14/02 12:12 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JohnC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
 Quote:
George says:

As far as Clinton versus Bush2 -- why is this even an issue when discussing our fundamental constitutional rights? There is a point where the discussion is no longer a partisan one and to attempt to make it one is to minimize the import of the discussion. [/b]
Why is this an issue? Because except for mainly Clinton appoligists most people aren't willing to condemn the current administration without some proof of wrong doing. It is the Clinton appologists who attempt to politicize every act or non-act of the current government. The same ones who sat silent for eight of the most corrupt years the White House has ever seen. Just pointing out the hypocracy of that group George.

And I know this thought is anathema to you, but this administrations actions may well be very legal and a very correct course of action. Then the Clinton appologists would have to work overtime to again attempt to rewrite history. After all, no good ever came from a non Democratic administration. Right George?
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#819053 - 06/14/02 12:22 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Let's also not forget that Bush was in the White House 9 months when 9/11 took place. Clinton was in office 8 years and never connected the dots and he had plenty of wake-up calls during those 8 years.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819054 - 06/14/02 12:25 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
A few pieces of my opinion:

International terrorism is an act of war, without benefit of a declaration of war by the sponsoring soveign nation. And terrorism can never reach the heights of destruction as 9/11, without state sponsorship.

So who to declare war upon? The sponsoring nation or the terrorists? I believe both.

And if this is a war, and I believe it is, the terrorists are certainly not adhering to the rules of the Geneva Convention. In fact, they are attacking civilians _instead_ of the military. And where are the uniforms of the combatants?

No, terrorists are much more like spies and saboteurs than soldiers. And the solution of nations for hundreds of years for spies, has been immediate and swift execution.

Furthermore, terrorists do not play by the genteel rules of civilized society. Witness the events of the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, and the subsequent trial of the defendants. The methods by which the terrorists were caught had to be revealed in court, allowing their organizations to change their modus operandi, and subsequently escape detection by those methods the next time. And there most assuredly will be a next time!

And even if the terrorist is convicted in court and sentenced to death, because of our criminal justice system and subsequent appeals, it will probably be a decade before the sentence of the court can be carried out. A decade in which kidnappings and ransom demands can be planned out and accomplished. What do you do, when a kidnapped federal justice's life is on the line vs. the freedom of a convicted terrorist?

No, better to try them as spies in a military court. Convict them by majority rule and issue the sentence. Execution by firing squad, roll them in a pig's skin (assuming they are Islamic), and bury them deep in an unmarked grave.
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#819055 - 06/14/02 01:14 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
When Algore was pulled aside for special attention twice during a recent trip to Wisconsin, Milwaukee Sentinel article , he didn't complain. He complied completely as, he thought, all citizens should in these times.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#819056 - 06/14/02 01:26 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Jolly makes a strong point here about terrorism in general. It is an act of war or insurrection that is directed aginst the civilian populace of a target nation(s). Its main purpose is to undermine the people's confidence in their government's ability to protect them by using whatever means of terror and violence available. In so doing the terrorist hopes that the terget population will rise up against the target government and change the status quo. The Terrorist rarely has any coherent ideological basis for terror and is therefore Nihilistic in his outlook.

Nation states historically have few means to combat terrorism/nihlism other than what the current Administration is doing through the justice system (both military and criminal) and the US's capability to project diplomatic and military power beyond its borders. In the case of Padillo the US government has little choice other than to do what it is presently doing. Putting him on trial in criminal court would only give him a soapbox from which he could harangue the masses with his propaganda of hatred. For him the best solution is to lock him up quietly in Maximum security, throw away the key and let the inmates dispense jailhouse justice on him. In that way he can truly learn what hatred really means.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#819057 - 06/14/02 01:28 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
The Al Gore incident is just another example of the silliness that being politically correct causes. Mr. Mineta needs to issue racial profiling orders today to the airport security details.

Orders that presumably, would allow the former Vice President of the United States, to board an airliner without an extensive search.

There are many acts I believe Al Gore capable of - using an airliner as a tool of mass destruction isn't one of them! ;\)
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#819058 - 06/14/02 05:22 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Let's also not forget that Bush was in the White House 9 months when 9/11 took place. Clinton was in office 8 years and never connected the dots and he had plenty of wake-up calls during those 8 years.

Derick[/b]
Not true, Derrick. The Millenium terrorists were stopped on his watch. And Clinton never suggested he take on to himself the powers Bush has decided are his with no consultation with anyone else.

In fact, with all of the wars we have been in since WWII -- Korea (Truman, Eisenhower), Vietnam (Johnson, Nixon, Ford), Desert Storm (Bush1), Granada (Reagan), Bosnia (Clinton), Somalia (Bush1, Clinton) -- none were wars declared by Congress and none of the Presidents even suggested they had the right to suspend civil liberties. The last President to do so was FDR -- only AFTER war was declared, and they were continued for the few months Truman was in office until the war ended, when Truman lifted these actions

This is the problem when you guys allow this sort of thing to become a partisan argument. You think you win points by pointing something significant out -- that Bush is better than Clinton. But this is not the argfument at all. And all the while you want to argue partisan politics, we are losing our freedom.

Not once have I, or Steve or anyone else who wants the process to remain constitutional compared Il Duce with Clinton. Those of you who argue against us do. Why? What bearing does it have?

Or are you invoking the "right wing conspiracy" type thinking that you mock so much when it is mentioned.

This is NOT a partisan issue. When defacto President Cheney or Ari Fliesher question the patriotism of those who question these policies, they are making it partisan. they are wrapping themselves in a flag which they desecrate by their very words. Agree with me or be publicly identified as unAmerican is the refuge of those who do not have the law behind them.

This issue is one that goes to the very core of our system of limited government. One would think that those of you with a more conservative bent would see this.

But apparently not.

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#819059 - 06/14/02 05:28 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
The Al Gore incident is just another example of the silliness that being politically correct causes. Mr. Mineta needs to issue racial profiling orders today to the airport security details.

[/b]
Agreed.

But not racial profiling as such. Rather criminal profiling -- which, I believe, more correctly defines it. If we find that there is a rise in elderly hispanic women undertaking terrorist acts, they should be included as well.

The profiling has little to do with race. It has a lot to do with the criminal profiles.

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#819060 - 06/14/02 05:48 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14036
Loc: Louisiana
Uh George, in all the wars you mentioned, how many civilian deaths occurred in the contiguous United States?

I'll tell you - One. Japanese balloon bomb, WWII, West Coast.

And that was in a declared war.

These guys do not play by the rules. And while you are standing there wringing your hands over the moral outrage of the loss of our constitutional rights - which I have yet to see - somebody else is going to die. And the only people I want to see die in this war are the terrorists.

If a citizen chooses to take up the terrorist cause, he has become a combatant, a traitor, a spy. He has forfeited his rights as an American. Rights are products of particular arrangements, and apply only to those who are subject to and respect those arrangements. When the citizen takes on the cloak of terrorism, he rips asunder any claim he has to his constitutional rights.

As I said, convict them in a military court, shoot 'em, wrap 'em in pigskins and bury 'em deep. The only point I feel is debatable is the method of execution. Would you rather have a high limb and a short rope? \:\)
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#819061 - 06/14/02 06:16 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

First of all, my name has one 'r' and one 'i'. You spell it differently, and incorrectly, everytime.

As long as you are mentioning 'powers', Clinton decided to take on a few himself. One, that I can mention on a family forum, is lying to the entire US on national TV (and under oath). The chief lawmaker put himself above the law.

Why do you mistrust Bush so much yet fully trust a proven liar?

All of the wars you mentioned are completely different than this war. That aside, would it really make a difference to you if the President declared war?

You would still have the same objections to how Padilla is being handled. Moreover, you'd argue that the war on terror will never be over, therefore our civil liberties will be intruded upon forever.

Isn't that right?

It is and you know it.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819062 - 06/14/02 07:21 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
George,

First of all, my name has one 'r' and one 'i'. You spell it differently, and incorrectly, everytime.

As long as you are mentioning 'powers', Clinton decided to take on a few himself. One, that I can mention on a family forum, is lying to the entire US on national TV (and under oath). The chief lawmaker put himself above the law.

Why do you mistrust Bush so much yet fully trust a proven liar?

All of the wars you mentioned are completely different than this war. That aside, would it really make a difference to you if the President declared war?

You would still have the same objections to how Padilla is being handled. Moreover, you'd argue that the war on terror will never be over, therefore our civil liberties will be intruded upon forever.

Isn't that right?

It is and you know it.

Derick[/b]
Derick

(Sorry about the mispelling)

First, I have NEVER said I trust (or trusted) Bill Clinton. I have said I trust NO politician. The only comments I have made that could be construed to support Clinton is when I have supported a specific action he toook -- like his administration arresting the Millennium Terrorists.

Indeed, the Clinton Administration proposed legislation to increase the surveillance of the Internet by the FBI and I wrote letters in opposition to it. I have expressed the same opposition to Attorney Generalissimo's new regulations. But at least Clointon requested public debate. The Generalissimo has done it by executive fiat.

Would it make a difference is Il Duce declared war? Nope -- because that is not what the Constitution calls for.

Would it make a difference if Il Duce requested of Congress a formal resolution of a declaration of war and the Congress approved it? You bet!

If after Il Duce requests it and the Congress debates it, with all of the public coverage and public pressure on each Senator and Representative, and the Congress passes a formal resolution, pursuant to constitutional provisions, to declare war, then the President has been given these powers by someone else who can also take them away from him. He has not taken them unto himself.

Why? Because we, as a people, would have expressed a consensus to give him the ability to do so. Also because the Congress then always has the right to end the war when they rescind the declaration, as they do at the end of every war.

Yes, Derick -- it makes a BIG difference if we have debated and agreed to allow the President to suspend civil liberties for a period of time. A BIG difference compared to him deciding on his own to take them to himself because he wants to.

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#819063 - 06/14/02 07:28 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Uh George, in all the wars you mentioned, how many civilian deaths occurred in the contiguous United States?

If a citizen chooses to take up the terrorist cause, he has become a combatant, a traitor, a spy. He has forfeited his rights as an American. Rights are products of particular arrangements, and apply only to those who are subject to and respect those arrangements. When the citizen takes on the cloak of terrorism, he rips asunder any claim he has to his constitutional rights.
[/b]
Tell me, Jolly---

Why is it that a US Citizen is denied a criminal trial under the laws of the United States for conspiring to use a dirty bomb while a French citizen who the Government claims was the 20th high jacker is given a criminal trial with all rights of an American citizen?

We now have an Administration that denies civil liberties to an American citizen while granting them to a French citizen?

What the hell is going on? Is this what you people are all supporting? French citizens are first class citizens and Americans are second class?

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#819064 - 06/14/02 08:26 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
I can't remember where in the Constitution it says that Congress, the President, or the Supreme Court is given the power to take away or suspend peoples rights when war is declared.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#819065 - 06/14/02 10:41 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
The brief thoughts of Jonah Goldberg:

I think one reason why people are so split over military tribunals, detentions-without-trial etc for al-Quaeda terrorists is the essential chicken-or-the-egg-legal problem. Clearly, known and dangerous terrorists shouldn't be treated with all the rights and benefits which accrue to normal civilian defendants. But it is very difficult to feel comfortable with the government's word that someone is actually one of these terrorists. In effect you can't know someone doesn't deserve a civilian trial until you give them one. I am not entirely unsympathetic to this point. Still, at bottom, the issue is one of trust. Do we trust the government of the United States to use this power at this time. My short answer is, yes.

That doesn't mean the press, Congress and the public shouldn't do their best to make sure the government isn't abusing this power. And, that doesn't mean we can't change our minds if it appears that the government is being reckless. But, for now, since the government has the legal right to detain agents of foreign powers bent on killing Americans, the only argument for opposing the government's detention of people like Padilla is a slippery slope argument. And that is not sufficient. Saying "what's to stop the government from designating you or me a terrorist?" is at best a bad argument and at worst knee-jerk paranoia.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#819066 - 06/14/02 10:52 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
Why is it that a US Citizen is denied a criminal trial under the laws of the United States for conspiring to use a dirty bomb while a French citizen who the Government claims was the 20th high jacker is given a criminal trial with all rights of an American citizen?

We now have an Administration that denies civil liberties to an American citizen while granting them to a French citizen?

What the hell is going on? Is this what you people are all supporting? French citizens are first class citizens and Americans are second class?[/b]
The criminal trial of Zaccharias Moussaoi(sp?) poses no danger in terms of exposing intelligence sources and methods. A criminal trial of Jose Padilla, on the other hand, does. That should only reinforce the view that the Administration is using military courts only when security is an issue rather than because they derive some perverse enjoyment from depriving someone of their civil rights.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819067 - 06/15/02 10:53 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

Apology accepted (about the mispelling ONLY!) ;\)

When I asked the question about the President declaring war, I meant thru formal channels. Perhaps the President can declare war on his own, or he needs the approval of Congress? I really don't know, but I meant the latter.

Assuming he gets Congressional approval, how long does this war go on for? Probably forever.
Consequently all the Padilla's of the world will get the same treatment Mr. Padilla did. And, therefore, based on your own words, you would approve.

Right?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819068 - 06/15/02 11:31 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
The criminal trial of Zaccharias Moussaoi(sp?) poses no danger in terms of exposing intelligence sources and methods. A criminal trial of Jose Padilla, on the other hand, does. That should only reinforce the view that the Administration is using military courts only when security is an issue rather than because they derive some perverse enjoyment from depriving someone of their civil rights.[/b]
How do you know this JBryan? Because the Attorney General (who after the past few weeks has a vested interest is making it sound like his agency has accomplished something) tells you so?

There have always been was in criminal trials to allow for secret testimony when national security is an issue. Indeed, it is possible for a judge to review the Government's case and decide the entire trial is secret -- under criminal justice procedures, not military justice procedures.

The issue of secrecy simply does not hold water because the Courts have always accommodated the national security need for secrecy.

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#819069 - 06/15/02 11:35 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
The brief thoughts of Jonah Goldberg:

[/b]
So says Jonah Goldberg who made his name by saying a President was lying on a whole host of topics based on very flimsy evidence.

Amazing how skeptical one can be if one wants to get new coverage and how one losses that skepticism if one is being paid to present a certain viewpoint in a televised argument.

Goldberg's is nothing more than a paid opinion whore, like all the other pundits. To even take his (or any of their) opinions seriously is to say one can make love to a prostitute, as opposed to just having sex with her.

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#819070 - 06/15/02 11:38 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
George,

Apology accepted (about the mispelling ONLY!) ;\)

When I asked the question about the President declaring war, I meant thru formal channels. Perhaps the President can declare war on his own, or he needs the approval of Congress? I really don't know, but I meant the latter.

Assuming he gets Congressional approval, how long does this war go on for? Probably forever.
Consequently all the Padilla's of the world will get the same treatment Mr. Padilla did. And, therefore, based on your own words, you would approve.

Right?

Derick[/b]
Derick

if the people, through debate and public discussion, give the president the authority to suspend certain civil liberties, then yes, I can accept that -- whether I approve of it or not.

But that is NOT what is happening now.

Tell me, Derick, why do you think Il Duce does not go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war? Or,easier still, go to Congress with a law to suspend certain civil liberties and get their OK before he does so?

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#819071 - 06/15/02 12:00 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
How do you know this JBryan? Because the Attorney General (who after the past few weeks has a vested interest is making it sound like his agency has accomplished something) tells you so?[/b]
I know that Padilla was captured entering the US and his co-conspirators were captured in Pakistan which would imply the use of intelligence sources and methods. Moussaoi was caught pursuant to a suspicion he aroused at a Minnesota flight school thus not involving such methods. There was a closed session of the Senate Congressional Intelligence Committee last week concerning the Padilla case where the decision to keep him incommunicado was actually made.

 Quote:
There have always been was in criminal trials to allow for secret testimony when national security is an issue. Indeed, it is possible for a judge to review the Government's case and decide the entire trial is secret -- under criminal justice procedures, not military justice procedures.

The issue of secrecy simply does not hold water because the Courts have always accommodated the national security need for secrecy.[/b]
In the case of the first World Trade Center bombing secrecy was not maintained and sources and methods were revealed. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819072 - 06/15/02 12:02 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
So says Jonah Goldberg who made his name by saying a President was lying on a whole host of topics based on very flimsy evidence.

Amazing how skeptical one can be if one wants to get new coverage and how one losses that skepticism if one is being paid to present a certain viewpoint in a televised argument.

Goldberg's is nothing more than a paid opinion whore, like all the other pundits. To even take his (or any of their) opinions seriously is to say one can make love to a prostitute, as opposed to just having sex with her.[/b]
Talk about attacking the messenger. Might you have something substantive to say about his specific arguments?
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819073 - 06/15/02 12:44 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
[QUOTE]Talk about attacking the messenger. Might you have something substantive to say about his specific arguments?[/b]
No, I do not waste my time dealing with paid pundits ideas. They make money off selling their opinions to the highest bidder. And what sells them? If they are controversial and make good TV or radio.

So, no. I have nothing substantive to say about his arguments because anything he says is tainted by his desire to cash a check and get wealthy. That is fine. But I do not have to buy his product any more than I have to buy Kellogg Raisin Bran instead of Post Raisin Bran.

I would say the same thing about any other pundit as well -- liberal or conservative. They pimp their thoughts for cash. Nice job if you can get it -- requires very little work other than being a quick thinker and a good wordsmith. But I do not consider their opinions as anything more than a product they sell and certainly not worth spending time on.

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#819074 - 06/15/02 12:49 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
[QUOTE]In the case of the first World Trade Center bombing secrecy was not maintained and sources and methods were revealed. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy.[/b]
I see. And using the Criminal Justice System for Mr. Hanson, the most nototrious spy in FBI History who damaged this country far more than even Padillo could ever hope didn;t work either, did it?

That seemed to me to work VERY well.

But maybe it was because Hanson was an FBI agent --and the FBI just could not bring themselves to throw one of their own into a military prison, with no legal representation and held indefinitely without being charged. Why? Because they know full well, that if it happened top Hason it could happen to them as well.

You all, however, seem to feel you are free of such indignities -- but then, maybe you are all French citizens who are treated so much better by the Il Duce Regime than American Citizens.

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#819075 - 06/15/02 01:02 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
No, I do not waste my time dealing with paid pundits ideas. They make money off selling their opinions to the highest bidder. And what sells them? If they are controversial and make good TV or radio.

So, no. I have nothing substantive to say about his arguments because anything he says is tainted by his desire to cash a check and get wealthy. That is fine. But I do not have to buy his product any more than I have to buy Kellogg Raisin Bran instead of Post Raisin Bran.

I would say the same thing about any other pundit as well -- liberal or conservative. They pimp their thoughts for cash. Nice job if you can get it -- requires very little work other than being a quick thinker and a good wordsmith. But I do not consider their opinions as anything more than a product they sell and certainly not worth spending time on.[/b]
Come on George. This is all a smoke screen. You just don't have any effective counter argument so you resort to calling him names. Then when you are called on it you obscure the point by painting all columnists with the same broad brush. You can do better than that.

If your problem is with who said it and if it helps you to focus on the point just pretend that I said it and confine yourself to the specific arguments.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#819076 - 06/15/02 01:07 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
I see. And using the Criminal Justice System for Mr. Hanson, the most nototrious spy in FBI History who damaged this country far more than even Padillo could ever hope didn;t work either, did it?

That seemed to me to work VERY well.

But maybe it was because Hanson was an FBI agent --and the FBI just could not bring themselves to throw one of their own into a military prison, with no legal representation and held indefinitely without being charged. Why? Because they know full well, that if it happened top Hason it could happen to them as well.

You all, however, seem to feel you are free of such indignities -- but then, maybe you are all French citizens who are treated so much better by the Il Duce Regime than American Citizens.[/b]
Comparing this to the Hanson case is apples to oranges. Hanson was a rogue agent who was working with the Russians. The only sources or methods that could be revealed in the course of his trial were Russian. There was no great intelligence work involved in finding him out (much to the shame of the FBI). The padilla case is altogether different.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
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