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#819017 - 06/12/02 09:30 AM Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


Let's see now.....

American citizen arrested for alledgedly working with terrorists. Held for over a month before anyone is told. No lawyer provided. No charges brought. Just interrogated -- somewhere, by someone, for some purpose, using some method determined by the government as appropriate.

Then the American citizen is transfered from the justice system to the military system for trial. One what? No one knows. No lawyer provided, no charges brought.

Criminal justice system criteria for guilt -- above a reasonable doubt. Military justice system criteria for guilt -- preponderance of the evidence.

Who will be next? For what reason?

It's a new kind of war. Apparently one without rights for American citizens, except those allowed by government officials.

Everything has certainly changed since 9/11. It is not Osama Bin Laden taking away our way of life. It is Bush, Ashcroft, Rumsfeld doing so.

Constitutional rights -- another one bites the dust.

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#819018 - 06/12/02 10:01 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

You better watch out. I've heard thru the grapevine that Ashcroft is an avid reader of this forum. You may be next. ;\)

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819019 - 06/12/02 10:20 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
OK, George, I admit you have stubmbled into a worthy question - What do the American people do with a citizen accused of trying to cause grevious harm through a weapon of mass destruction? Especially, when that person is allied with and belongs to a group that has recently commited one of the most cowardly, heinous acts ever propagated on the U.S.

I know what I would have done with him, but what does George think the appropriate response would be?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#819020 - 06/12/02 10:47 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George wants Padilla to have immediately been provided access to a lawyer (so he could clam up about other terrorist activity he knew about) and to be tried in the traditional criminal justice system.

I haven't found my life impacted in the slightest by the actions of Bush, Ashcroft or Rumsfield.

This is a war. American's lives are at stake. Personally, I would have interrogated him, got everything I could out of him, and then shot him.
GONE, never to be heard from again. Terrorize the terrorists.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819021 - 06/12/02 03:06 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
OK, George, I admit you have stubmbled into a worthy question - What do the American people do with a citizen accused of trying to cause grevious harm through a weapon of mass destruction? Especially, when that person is allied with and belongs to a group that has recently commited one of the most cowardly, heinous acts ever propagated on the U.S.

I know what I would have done with him, but what does George think the appropriate response would be?[/b]
I know what I feel like I would like to do to someone like this, but....

As an American, I believe he should be afforded all rights of any American.

Yes, derrick, he should be given an attorney. He should be charged with a crime, arraigned, bail denied because he is likely a flight risk.

If he has information that can be helpful, through his attorney we can negotiate a plea and sentence with him like we did with Hanson, the FBI spy -- all depending on his coorperation in providing information that we can verify and use. (No doubt he has much information we can use)

Then he should be taken through the criminal justice process like anyone else.

We have done this with men like Hanson and others who have caused grave damage to this country. It has worked well in the past it will do so now and in the future.

In this case, we are dealing with a man who allegedly intended to cause great harm. Why deny him his rights when we do not do so with others who have damaged us even worse than this man would have even if his plot had been successfully acted on?

What we should not be doing is showing the world that we have no real values, only ones we adhere to when it is easy to do so.

We are either the United States of America, with all that means as a beacon of hope around the world, or we are just like every other country who will sell out their values when they are severely tested.

Values only mean something when it is hard to live up to them.

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#819022 - 06/12/02 05:34 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

Sorry to say but the US is not seen as a "beacon of hope around the world." Far from it. We have stood by our values time and time again and have saved the world. What have we gotten in appreciation? Zippo. I'm tired of it.

It's our country and we have the right to do anything we want with those who attempt to destroy it. Terrorize the terrorists. Shoot the b*st*rd.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819023 - 06/12/02 05:47 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
A short trial and a first class hanging? I don't know. I think George makes some good points here. What was the government's reason for holding this guy so long without charging him with a crime. Maybe thay have a good one but I would be interested in hearing it. Let us take all the steps necessary to protect us from these people but, at the same time, let us not be too eager to embrace a police state. We would look mighty foolish destroying the very thing we are trying to protect. I am not prepared to do like George and assume the worse of our government but neither will I assume the best. I am ever watchful and mindful of the fact that the processes that become common practice today can expand in ways we did not intend and fall into hands that are sure to be different in the future.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819024 - 06/12/02 06:15 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
George,

Sorry to say but the US is not seen as a "beacon of hope around the world." Far from it. We have stood by our values time and time again and have saved the world. What have we gotten in appreciation? Zippo. I'm tired of it.

It's our country and we have the right to do anything we want with those who attempt to destroy it. Terrorize the terrorists. Shoot the b*st*rd.

Derick[/b]
Derick

What have we gotten in return? For one thing, perhaps the best most countries can send -- their best and brightest. How much of the creativity and engenuity and intelligence in this country today has come from the immigration we have seen for 150 years. How do you think the US came to be the predominat culture? The predominant scientific community? The predominant business community? The predominant artistic community? It was not because we grew it at home, but because the best and brightest came to us -- because we give them the environment they can flourish in.

Even today, how many countries send their best and brightest children here to be educated, thinking they will come back and they do not return to their homes but decide to stay here and become part of us, making us better?

What have we gotten in return? When I consider the number of democracies when I was a child and the number we have now -- almost all coming because of the vision of the US that the world has -- I see most of the world tryng to emulate our form of government. This is a sign of respect. Even the fact those that are totalitarian goivernments will refer to themselves a democracies and will hold elections is a sign of respect for what we are.

What have we gotten in return? The most massive and richest economy the world has ever seen, and all the benefits we individuals get from that...much of it built because other countries, rich and poor, want to not just emulate our government, but also our music, our clothing, our food, our entertainment.

Abraham Lincoln called America the Last Best Hope on Earth. I agree with this. I believe it to be true -- and pray we do not let ther world down.

I look around the world and see continents and countries torn apart of sectarian violence and cultural differences. Europe can't get past their centuries old hatreds, focused on areas no larger than counties in this country. I see oppression and corruption. I see a rich class and a poor class, and no middle class -- the middle class being the one which provides meaning to the average human being. I see poverty and diseases and governments and business leaders who do not care.

But, in the US, I see problems -- and people trying to solve them. I see cultural differences, and people trying to understand and work through them. I see a governmental system, partisan and nasty as it can be, working generally for the benefit of the people. I see an economy which provides opportunity to most people.

What I see is the one country (there are only a couple of others -- also immigrant based) where differing people with differing views, come together and try (and pretty well succeed more often than not) to work together to the common benefit.

If this world is going to rid itself of the horrendous things that go on, of war, and poverty and disease, it is going to be based on the United States as a model. No, it will not be an exact replica -- but it will be something close to what we have, based on the values we have in some form or another.

We have a lot of problems. But we have met a lot of people's hopes when they have come here and we are working to solve those problems we do have. It is not always pretty. We are not always real good at it. But when we fail, we tend to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off and try again.

We are the Last Best Hope of the World. And the world knows it. Government policies may not reflect what the common person believes. But the common person sees the United States, even with all of its flaws, as a beacon of hope.

It is why people like Osama Bin Laden hate us -- because they see those they would have as followers turning to us instead.

And we gain a lot from that. But only if we stay true to ourselves.

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#819025 - 06/12/02 06:18 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
A short trial and a first class hanging? I don't know. I think George makes some good points here. What was the government's reason for holding this guy so long without charging him with a crime. Maybe thay have a good one but I would be interested in hearing it. Let us take all the steps necessary to protect us from these people but, at the same time, let us not be too eager to embrace a police state. We would look mighty foolish destroying the very thing we are trying to protect. I am not prepared to do like George and assume the worse of our government but neither will I assume the best. I am ever watchful and mindful of the fact that the processes that become common practice today can expand in ways we did not intend and fall into hands that are sure to be different in the future.[/b]
JBryan

At what point though, will you know they have stepped over the line? Once you realize it, don't you think it will be so institutionalized that we won't be able to return to what we have had?. Is it not better to keep them from even moving down that path and demand they honor our values now, than assume we can turn things back later? Do you really think we could?

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#819026 - 06/12/02 06:23 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Once before, they arrested 8 people entering the country as saboteurs. This included 2 citizens of the U.S. All were tried by the military and, I think, 6 were executed.

Of course, those were Nazi's, not Islamists, and people still understood that with rights come responsibilities. Abrogating the latter eliminates some of the former.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#819027 - 06/12/02 06:29 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
Once before, they arrested 8 people entering the country as saboteurs. This included 2 citizens of the U.S. All were tried by the military and, I think, 6 were executed.

Of course, those were Nazi's, not Islamists, and people still understood that with rights come responsibilities. Abrogating the latter eliminates some of the former.[/b]
And we had a declared war, DT. So we knew when the supension of civil liberties would end.

We do not have that now. All we have is an Administration that takes on to itself war-like powers, without telling us when they will give those powers up.

If Il Duce really needs these powers to defend us, then let him seek a declaration of war and let us debate it. Decide as a people if this is what we want to do.

But let us not simply let politicians (and that really is all these people are) decide on their own what rights they will take away and from whom and under what circumstances.

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#819028 - 06/12/02 06:43 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
George,

I am not yet prepared to asume that there is anything to be "turned back". I remain watchful. I said you have made some good points. Don't push it. ;\)
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819029 - 06/12/02 09:16 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

Stop twisting things and see them for what they really are.

We gave countries an environment to flourish in so they, in return, sent us their best and brightest. Wow, wasn't that kind of them.

Could it be that the best and brightest came here because the US had superior opportunities for them? Better education, more money, etc...?

The US is made up of people from all over the world. But I find your statement indicating that 'we didn't grow it at home', offensive. The US is a young country, yet we have come farther than any other country. Is that because we consulted with all these other countries who were so kind to send us their best and brightest?

Probably, Americans really are a bunch of dumb-clucks. Thanks God for foreigners.

We have given the world democracies. Millions of Americans died to give them their freedom. Yet, even in South Korea, they openly demonstrate against the US. Ask the German goverment for help, no way. Ask the French, sorry.

Sorry George there are not more democracies because other countries are trying to flatter us thru imitation.

You then veer off-course and explain what makes America great by comparing the US to foreign countries.

You are a master magician with words, George. You are obviously very smart and I have great respect for you. But, I do not agree with you.

I said it before and I'll say it again, terrorize the terrorists. There are no rules when dealing with terrorists.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819030 - 06/13/02 01:48 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Steve Miller Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 3290
Loc: Yorba Linda, CA
We have a terrific legal system. Not perfect, but it works, and has worked for several hundred years.

I say use it. Hold a proper trial in the light of day where where the whole world can see it. Cover it in the media - hold it up for everyone to see.

If Padilla is guilty, then prosecute him to the full extent of the law. If he is not, let him go.

It's just that simple.
_________________________
Defender of the Landfill Piano

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#819031 - 06/13/02 05:42 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Niles Duncan Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 513
Loc: Pasadena, CA
We in the West have a long tradition of civil liberties and due process that have developed piece by piece over a millenium, going back at least to the time some English barons rammed the Magna Carta down King John's throat and made him sign it. This tradition wasn't the product of some idealists in ivory towers. It's the result of centuries of struggle by practical men and women against real abuses by entrenched power who understood that we all have a right to be secure from the knock on the door in the middle of the night, from a trip to the tower on the whim of the king, from Nacht und Nebel. It's taken us hundreds of years to go from divine right of kings to government by the consent of the governed, and it isn't worth s**t if we don't realize that it has to apply even to those that we hate. Unlike some of you advocates of interrogate 'em and shoot 'em, I've been in the Third World where "justice" is dispensed by disappearances and death squads and massacres by the army were the rule, and it's ugly.

In his 1960 play A Man for All Seasons Robert Bolt gave us the following dialogue. I don't know whether the words given to Sir Thomas More may have actually been his or were created by the playwright, but either way I think they are relevant.

Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!

More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?

Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!

More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you - where would you hide the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast - man's laws, not God's - and if you cut them down - and you're just the man to do it - d'you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake.

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#819032 - 06/13/02 08:34 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
It is, of course, troubling to hear that an American Citizen was held for a month without access to an attorney or being charged with a crime. As I said before, there could be some very good reasons for this happening. I understand that certain others involved in this plot were only recently detained in Pakistan. It is at least reasonable to suppose that law enforcement and intelligence officials did not want it known by these other operatives that Padilla was in custody until they had been rounded up. It is even possible that the cooperation of Mr. Padilla had been obtained in the pursuit of these other operatives. There is also the question of the intelligence assets used in uncovering this plot. There would have to have been an effort to ensure the security of those who provided the intelligence used and even a little more time given to obtain all intelligence possible.

We should all be concerned that these methods are being used but mindful of the fact that in unusual circumstances they must be used. George is very quick to point out that war has not been declared blithely ignoring the fact that there is no one (state) to declare war against. Indeed, in the present day circumstances, a declaration of war may be an anachronism. However, that does not absolve the government of the responsibility of clearly defining the conditions that make this a war and ensuring that such extraordinary measures will not continue once the present emergency has passed. We would also be wary of any effort at replacing it with a fresh "emergency".

Mr. Padilla should be given a fair trial as soon as possible. The fact that he has been held without the benefit of counsel means that any information obtained from him during this period of incarceration will be inadmissable at his trial. The fact that he may be tried in a military court is not without precedent. We may not have declared war (for reasons stated above) but Mr. Padilla stands accused of what could quite arguably described as an act of war.

It is interesting that even now as the FBI is being excoriated for not pursuing certain individuals enrolled in flight schools for fear of being portrayed as infringing on the rights of others are now being excoriated for doing just that. It seems there is no pleasing some people. It is also curious that many of those who were untroubled by the abduction at gunpoint of a six year old boy in the middle of the night by law enforcement are now warning that Constitutional rights are "biting the dust". It all seems rather, well, convenient.

I remain, as I said, watchful.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819033 - 06/13/02 11:20 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Niles,

Padilla is an enemy combatant. All that was needed was his confession, witnessed by two individuals, to place him in this category. Enemy combatants and non-citizens do not have civil rights. Consequently, everything being done is legal.

Seems to me the long tradition of civil liberties and due process originated in the east, not the west.

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819034 - 06/14/02 10:16 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Niles Duncan:

In his 1960 play A Man for All Seasons Robert Bolt gave us the following dialogue....[/b]
Perhaps one of the best plays to deal with individual conscience and the fight of the individual against government supression.

One I wish was taught AND discussed in any ethics class.

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#819035 - 06/14/02 10:21 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
George is very quick to point out that war has not been declared blithely ignoring the fact that there is no one (state) to declare war against. Indeed, in the present day circumstances, a declaration of war may be an anachronism. [/b]
And where does it say we must have a state to declare war against?

Why can't we declare war against a group instead of a state?

It can be done. Nothing is stopping us.

If it is a new kind of war, then a new kind of declaration of war can be done. Different to declare it against a group instead of a state with territory, but we are supposedly fighting in a different way as well.

We do not have a declared war. Il Duce should not be taking to himself the powers of a wartime President.

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#819036 - 06/14/02 10:33 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
War has been declared against us. That should be enough. We could declare war against "AL Quaeda" but what is to stop them from changing their name to "Death to America".
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819037 - 06/14/02 10:33 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Niles,

Padilla is an enemy combatant. All that was needed was his confession, witnessed by two individuals, to place him in this category. Enemy combatants and non-citizens do not have civil rights. Consequently, everything being done is legal.

Seems to me the long tradition of civil liberties and due process originated in the east, not the west.

Derick[/b]
And you know that he confessed openly and with no coercive tactics being used in front of two witnesses how, Derrick? Because the government said he did? Kind of like saying the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says it is the word of God.

We used to condemn these sorts of secret confessions all the time around the world. Now, under Il Duce, we do them ourselves.

Shame on us! We have been lowered to the level of an authoritarian state rather than raised up to the values we claim to hold dear.

Ever vigilant is not good enough -- when the government itself is the only source of information. How can we be vigilant when all we have are press releases and the propoganda the government allows us to have?

How many administrations need to lie to us for us to realize that lying comes easily to them when it is in their political benefit to do so and the ONLY way we know they are lies is through an open process -- one which the people themselves can judge?

Every administration in my lifetime -- from Truman on -- has lied to us because they felt it was best for us to be lied to. The Catholic Bishops have created the greatest scandal the American Catholic Church has ever known because they lied, thinking it was for the benefit of the Church.

When will we learn that politicians are simply politicians -- and their goals are seldom high minded and matching our basic values?

Il Duce is no different.

It is OUR freedom to give away if we choose to -- not his to take away. And yet -- we can sit back and be vigilant as he does so thinking that those with power will give it up some time in the future simply because it is the right thing to do.

I don't believe it.

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#819038 - 06/14/02 10:40 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
War has been declared against us. That should be enough. We could declare war against "AL Quaeda" but what is to stop them from changing their name to "Death to America".[/b]
Don't play semantics, JBryan. The declaration of war can be written in such a way to deal with this and you know it.

The US Constitution does NOT say we are at war when someone else declares it against us. It says that we are at war when the Congress declares it.

You can justify Il Duce's taking to himself all sorts of powers in any way you want and 75% of the people may even like the fact he does. And when this war goes on and on and Il Duce and future Presidents continue to use the tcatics because the war is still on, you can remain ever vigilant, watching as our freedoms are trampled, one by one, piece by piece, because we are "at war" -- a never ending war, thus a never ending assault on our freedoms.

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#819039 - 06/14/02 10:41 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Your constant references to "Il Duce" do not exactly enhance your image as anything other than a hidebound ideologue with a political axe to grind.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819040 - 06/14/02 10:46 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Your "declaration of war" argument is a straw man. When we are attacked from without we expect nothing other than that our government deal with it on a war footing. Anything short of that would be misfeasance. It is you who are playing at semantics. This is a war whether Congress has declared it or not. Also, declaring war against anything other than a state was never contemplated by the framers of the Constitution. Indeed, Thomas Jefferson as President went after the Barbary Pirates with no declaration of war.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819041 - 06/14/02 10:50 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Your constant references to "Il Duce" do not exactly enhance your image as anything other than a hidebound ideologue with a political axe to grind.[/b]
And when you have no other recourse -- attack the messenger.

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#819042 - 06/14/02 10:50 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

Please step back into reality.

What exactly would you have liked to have seen happen? Padilla gets a lawyer, lawyer tells him to shut his mouth, dirty bomb explodes in some mall?

What motive does the government have for holding a completely innocent man for 1 month?

Derick
_________________________
Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.

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#819043 - 06/14/02 10:52 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JBryan:
[qb]Your "declaration of war" argument is a straw man. When we are attacked from without we expect nothing other than that our government deal with it on a war footing. Anything short of that would be misfeasance. It is you who are playing at semantics. This is a war whether Congress has declared it or not. Also, declaring war against anything other than a state was never contemplated by the framers of the Constitution. Indeed, Thomas Jefferson as President went after the Barbary Pirates with no declaration of war.[/b]
True enough, JBryan, but he did not suspend civil liberties. Il Duce has and step by step is suspending more of them -- to the point he now suspends them for American citizens when HE[/b] decides it is a good idea.

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#819044 - 06/14/02 10:54 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Make no mistake about it. If any US Citizen had been found among the Barbary Pirates there would have been no questions raised as to his civil liberties. He would not have been heard from again.
_________________________
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#819045 - 06/14/02 10:55 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JohnC Offline
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Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
None of us knows if the government's handling of the Padilla case is within their legal rights or not, although it appears it may very well be. We should all be a concerned as to how this plays out. But based on what has happened and based on the information we have so far regarding Padilla, I think I'd rather err on the side of caution and detain him.

However, George, you can't have it both ways. One minute you are trying to blame the administration for not stopping 911 on the basis of the information they had (none of which anyone has shown to be sufficient to have know anything helpful). The next minute you want to condemn the administration for taking steps to stop a potentially similar attack. And as I noted before, they may well be within their legal rights.

Based on your attitude George, 911 could not have been prevented if we had all the plans and schedules in our hands months before. People like you would have accused the administration of wrong doing for arresting so many innocent Arabs before they had done anything wrong.

The hypocracy of your arguing both sides of the issue is rather amusing. \:\)
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#819046 - 06/14/02 11:03 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
George,

Please step back into reality.

What exactly would you have liked to have seen happen? Padilla gets a lawyer, lawyer tells him to shut his mouth, dirty bomb explodes in some mall?

What motive does the government have for holding a completely innocent man for 1 month?

Derick[/b]
Deriick, I explained earlier in this thread what I think should happen. Think Nason and the FBI. Hanson caused more damage to this country that Padilla ever could with a dirty bomb. And ye we afforded him full rights. We can do the same here.

What motive would they have? I don't know. I know what THEY tell me their motive is. But I have no idea what their true motive is. Neither do you.

Derrick, feel free to give away all of your rights if you wish. Il Duce has, with Padilla, now informed you that as an American citizen you can be detained without an attorney if the government decides you are a threat. They need do nothing but release a press statement saying they have decided this about you.

You may be willing to let your government do this to you. But I am not. And yet, this is now the policy of the US Government. If it is allowed to stand with Padilla, they can do it again and again and again and again for as long as they want against as many American citizens as they want as long as they issue a press statement saying that citizen has been deemed to have been a threat.

This is unacceptable to me. But apparently it is just fine for you. So be it. I hope they do not go after you next.

But if they do, know that JBryan and others will be ever vigilant and watching and that many will say it is OK because the Presidents popularity is high.

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#819047 - 06/14/02 11:07 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
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I sure will George.
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#819048 - 06/14/02 11:07 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JohnC:
None of us knows if the government's handling of the Padilla case is within their legal rights or not, although it appears it may very well be. We should all be a concerned as to how this plays out. But based on what has happened and based on the information we have so far regarding Padilla, I think I'd rather err on the side of caution and detain him.

However, George, you can't have it both ways. One minute you are trying to blame the administration for not stopping 911 on the basis of the information they had (none of which anyone has shown to be sufficient to have know anything helpful). The next minute you want to condemn the administration for taking steps to stop a potentially similar attack. And as I noted before, they may well be within their legal rights.

Based on your attitude George, 911 could not have been prevented if we had all the plans and schedules in our hands months before. People like you would have accused the administration of wrong doing for arresting so many innocent Arabs before they had done anything wrong.

[/b]
Not true, JC. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime prosecutable and punishable under our laws. Bail need not have been set if they crime was egregious enough or the plaintiffs were flight risks. Had Il Duce's government focused on what was happening and the information they had, all of these men could have been arrested for conspiracy.

Our justice system is capable of dealing with all of this. Why aren't we using it?

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#819049 - 06/14/02 11:33 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JohnC Offline
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Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:


Not true, JC. Conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime prosecutable and punishable under our laws. Bail need not have been set if they crime was egregious enough or the plaintiffs were flight risks. Had Il Duce's government focused on what was happening and the information they had, all of these men could have been arrested for conspiracy.

Our justice system is capable of dealing with all of this. Why aren't we using it?[/b]
Sure, in this hypothetical situation we could legally have arrested and prosecuted them. And in the current situation it could be that the government is well within it's rights to persue the course it is taking. However, in both scenarios you would be (and are) the first to accuse the administration of misdeeds in handling the case(s).

It should also be pointed out that in WWII after interning (sp?) a whole race of people, the people of this country did not ultimately lose any freedoms. Holding one individual (especially with what we seem to know about him) hardly constitutes the wholesale selling out of our rights. I worry far more of the damage to our rights Hillary could do if given the power. To use a liberal term constantly bandied about here, that's scary!

Perhaps you think Bush is just arresting innocent people to take the heat off of himself. Like Clinton did when he bombed the Sudanese asprin factory to divert attention from his lying under oath. Well, George, only time will tell. But my money is on this administration having much more just cause for their current actions. But I can see how a Clinton appologist would share your views.
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#819050 - 06/14/02 11:47 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JohnC:
Sure, in this hypothetical situation we could legally have arrested and prosecuted them. And in the current situation it could be that the government is well within it's rights to persue the course it is taking. However, in both scenarios you would be (and are) the first to accuse the administration of misdeeds in handling the case(s).

It should also be pointed out that in WWII after interning (sp?) a whole race of people, the people of this country did not ultimately lose any freedoms. Holding one individual (especially with what we seem to know about him) hardly constitutes the wholesale selling out of our rights. I worry far more of the damage to our rights Hillary could do if given the power. To use a liberal term constantly bandied about here, that's scary!

Perhaps you think Bush is just arresting innocent people to take the heat off of himself. Like Clinton did when he bombed the Sudanese asprin factory to divert attention from his lying under oath. Well, George, only time will tell. But my money is on this administration having much more just cause for their current actions. But I can see how a Clinton appologist would share your views.[/b]
JC
Granted, we do not know if they could have conected the dots. What we do know is that the dots were there and no one considered this a high enough priority to even read the memos.

All I am saying here is that had they done so, the justice system could have handled the situation under the then-current policies and the then-current procedures.

The internment in WWII? We had a delcared war and thus, when the war ended, the suspension of civil liberties end. Can you tell me what the trigger event will be to stop the current suspension of liberties? Do you know? Or are we to take the government's word for it -- be it Il Duce or the next President or the next one after that or the next after that -- for however long this government decides it needs to suspend civil liberties.

As far as Clinton versus Bush2 -- why is this even an issue when discussing our fundamental constitutional rights? There is a point where the discussion is no longer a partisan one and to attempt to make it one is to minimize the import of the discussion.

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#819051 - 06/14/02 11:53 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
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Loc: New York
I agree 100% with John C.

Derick
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#819052 - 06/14/02 12:12 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JohnC Offline
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Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
 Quote:
George says:

As far as Clinton versus Bush2 -- why is this even an issue when discussing our fundamental constitutional rights? There is a point where the discussion is no longer a partisan one and to attempt to make it one is to minimize the import of the discussion. [/b]
Why is this an issue? Because except for mainly Clinton appoligists most people aren't willing to condemn the current administration without some proof of wrong doing. It is the Clinton appologists who attempt to politicize every act or non-act of the current government. The same ones who sat silent for eight of the most corrupt years the White House has ever seen. Just pointing out the hypocracy of that group George.

And I know this thought is anathema to you, but this administrations actions may well be very legal and a very correct course of action. Then the Clinton appologists would have to work overtime to again attempt to rewrite history. After all, no good ever came from a non Democratic administration. Right George?
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#819053 - 06/14/02 12:22 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
Let's also not forget that Bush was in the White House 9 months when 9/11 took place. Clinton was in office 8 years and never connected the dots and he had plenty of wake-up calls during those 8 years.

Derick
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#819054 - 06/14/02 12:25 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
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Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
A few pieces of my opinion:

International terrorism is an act of war, without benefit of a declaration of war by the sponsoring soveign nation. And terrorism can never reach the heights of destruction as 9/11, without state sponsorship.

So who to declare war upon? The sponsoring nation or the terrorists? I believe both.

And if this is a war, and I believe it is, the terrorists are certainly not adhering to the rules of the Geneva Convention. In fact, they are attacking civilians _instead_ of the military. And where are the uniforms of the combatants?

No, terrorists are much more like spies and saboteurs than soldiers. And the solution of nations for hundreds of years for spies, has been immediate and swift execution.

Furthermore, terrorists do not play by the genteel rules of civilized society. Witness the events of the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, and the subsequent trial of the defendants. The methods by which the terrorists were caught had to be revealed in court, allowing their organizations to change their modus operandi, and subsequently escape detection by those methods the next time. And there most assuredly will be a next time!

And even if the terrorist is convicted in court and sentenced to death, because of our criminal justice system and subsequent appeals, it will probably be a decade before the sentence of the court can be carried out. A decade in which kidnappings and ransom demands can be planned out and accomplished. What do you do, when a kidnapped federal justice's life is on the line vs. the freedom of a convicted terrorist?

No, better to try them as spies in a military court. Convict them by majority rule and issue the sentence. Execution by firing squad, roll them in a pig's skin (assuming they are Islamic), and bury them deep in an unmarked grave.
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#819055 - 06/14/02 01:14 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
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Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
When Algore was pulled aside for special attention twice during a recent trip to Wisconsin, Milwaukee Sentinel article , he didn't complain. He complied completely as, he thought, all citizens should in these times.
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#819056 - 06/14/02 01:26 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Renauda Offline
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Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Jolly makes a strong point here about terrorism in general. It is an act of war or insurrection that is directed aginst the civilian populace of a target nation(s). Its main purpose is to undermine the people's confidence in their government's ability to protect them by using whatever means of terror and violence available. In so doing the terrorist hopes that the terget population will rise up against the target government and change the status quo. The Terrorist rarely has any coherent ideological basis for terror and is therefore Nihilistic in his outlook.

Nation states historically have few means to combat terrorism/nihlism other than what the current Administration is doing through the justice system (both military and criminal) and the US's capability to project diplomatic and military power beyond its borders. In the case of Padillo the US government has little choice other than to do what it is presently doing. Putting him on trial in criminal court would only give him a soapbox from which he could harangue the masses with his propaganda of hatred. For him the best solution is to lock him up quietly in Maximum security, throw away the key and let the inmates dispense jailhouse justice on him. In that way he can truly learn what hatred really means.
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#819057 - 06/14/02 01:28 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
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Registered: 06/20/01
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Loc: Louisiana
The Al Gore incident is just another example of the silliness that being politically correct causes. Mr. Mineta needs to issue racial profiling orders today to the airport security details.

Orders that presumably, would allow the former Vice President of the United States, to board an airliner without an extensive search.

There are many acts I believe Al Gore capable of - using an airliner as a tool of mass destruction isn't one of them! ;\)
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#819058 - 06/14/02 05:22 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
Let's also not forget that Bush was in the White House 9 months when 9/11 took place. Clinton was in office 8 years and never connected the dots and he had plenty of wake-up calls during those 8 years.

Derick[/b]
Not true, Derrick. The Millenium terrorists were stopped on his watch. And Clinton never suggested he take on to himself the powers Bush has decided are his with no consultation with anyone else.

In fact, with all of the wars we have been in since WWII -- Korea (Truman, Eisenhower), Vietnam (Johnson, Nixon, Ford), Desert Storm (Bush1), Granada (Reagan), Bosnia (Clinton), Somalia (Bush1, Clinton) -- none were wars declared by Congress and none of the Presidents even suggested they had the right to suspend civil liberties. The last President to do so was FDR -- only AFTER war was declared, and they were continued for the few months Truman was in office until the war ended, when Truman lifted these actions

This is the problem when you guys allow this sort of thing to become a partisan argument. You think you win points by pointing something significant out -- that Bush is better than Clinton. But this is not the argfument at all. And all the while you want to argue partisan politics, we are losing our freedom.

Not once have I, or Steve or anyone else who wants the process to remain constitutional compared Il Duce with Clinton. Those of you who argue against us do. Why? What bearing does it have?

Or are you invoking the "right wing conspiracy" type thinking that you mock so much when it is mentioned.

This is NOT a partisan issue. When defacto President Cheney or Ari Fliesher question the patriotism of those who question these policies, they are making it partisan. they are wrapping themselves in a flag which they desecrate by their very words. Agree with me or be publicly identified as unAmerican is the refuge of those who do not have the law behind them.

This issue is one that goes to the very core of our system of limited government. One would think that those of you with a more conservative bent would see this.

But apparently not.

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#819059 - 06/14/02 05:28 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
The Al Gore incident is just another example of the silliness that being politically correct causes. Mr. Mineta needs to issue racial profiling orders today to the airport security details.

[/b]
Agreed.

But not racial profiling as such. Rather criminal profiling -- which, I believe, more correctly defines it. If we find that there is a rise in elderly hispanic women undertaking terrorist acts, they should be included as well.

The profiling has little to do with race. It has a lot to do with the criminal profiles.

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#819060 - 06/14/02 05:48 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
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Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Uh George, in all the wars you mentioned, how many civilian deaths occurred in the contiguous United States?

I'll tell you - One. Japanese balloon bomb, WWII, West Coast.

And that was in a declared war.

These guys do not play by the rules. And while you are standing there wringing your hands over the moral outrage of the loss of our constitutional rights - which I have yet to see - somebody else is going to die. And the only people I want to see die in this war are the terrorists.

If a citizen chooses to take up the terrorist cause, he has become a combatant, a traitor, a spy. He has forfeited his rights as an American. Rights are products of particular arrangements, and apply only to those who are subject to and respect those arrangements. When the citizen takes on the cloak of terrorism, he rips asunder any claim he has to his constitutional rights.

As I said, convict them in a military court, shoot 'em, wrap 'em in pigskins and bury 'em deep. The only point I feel is debatable is the method of execution. Would you rather have a high limb and a short rope? \:\)
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#819061 - 06/14/02 06:16 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
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Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

First of all, my name has one 'r' and one 'i'. You spell it differently, and incorrectly, everytime.

As long as you are mentioning 'powers', Clinton decided to take on a few himself. One, that I can mention on a family forum, is lying to the entire US on national TV (and under oath). The chief lawmaker put himself above the law.

Why do you mistrust Bush so much yet fully trust a proven liar?

All of the wars you mentioned are completely different than this war. That aside, would it really make a difference to you if the President declared war?

You would still have the same objections to how Padilla is being handled. Moreover, you'd argue that the war on terror will never be over, therefore our civil liberties will be intruded upon forever.

Isn't that right?

It is and you know it.

Derick
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#819062 - 06/14/02 07:21 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
George,

First of all, my name has one 'r' and one 'i'. You spell it differently, and incorrectly, everytime.

As long as you are mentioning 'powers', Clinton decided to take on a few himself. One, that I can mention on a family forum, is lying to the entire US on national TV (and under oath). The chief lawmaker put himself above the law.

Why do you mistrust Bush so much yet fully trust a proven liar?

All of the wars you mentioned are completely different than this war. That aside, would it really make a difference to you if the President declared war?

You would still have the same objections to how Padilla is being handled. Moreover, you'd argue that the war on terror will never be over, therefore our civil liberties will be intruded upon forever.

Isn't that right?

It is and you know it.

Derick[/b]
Derick

(Sorry about the mispelling)

First, I have NEVER said I trust (or trusted) Bill Clinton. I have said I trust NO politician. The only comments I have made that could be construed to support Clinton is when I have supported a specific action he toook -- like his administration arresting the Millennium Terrorists.

Indeed, the Clinton Administration proposed legislation to increase the surveillance of the Internet by the FBI and I wrote letters in opposition to it. I have expressed the same opposition to Attorney Generalissimo's new regulations. But at least Clointon requested public debate. The Generalissimo has done it by executive fiat.

Would it make a difference is Il Duce declared war? Nope -- because that is not what the Constitution calls for.

Would it make a difference if Il Duce requested of Congress a formal resolution of a declaration of war and the Congress approved it? You bet!

If after Il Duce requests it and the Congress debates it, with all of the public coverage and public pressure on each Senator and Representative, and the Congress passes a formal resolution, pursuant to constitutional provisions, to declare war, then the President has been given these powers by someone else who can also take them away from him. He has not taken them unto himself.

Why? Because we, as a people, would have expressed a consensus to give him the ability to do so. Also because the Congress then always has the right to end the war when they rescind the declaration, as they do at the end of every war.

Yes, Derick -- it makes a BIG difference if we have debated and agreed to allow the President to suspend civil liberties for a period of time. A BIG difference compared to him deciding on his own to take them to himself because he wants to.

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#819063 - 06/14/02 07:28 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Uh George, in all the wars you mentioned, how many civilian deaths occurred in the contiguous United States?

If a citizen chooses to take up the terrorist cause, he has become a combatant, a traitor, a spy. He has forfeited his rights as an American. Rights are products of particular arrangements, and apply only to those who are subject to and respect those arrangements. When the citizen takes on the cloak of terrorism, he rips asunder any claim he has to his constitutional rights.
[/b]
Tell me, Jolly---

Why is it that a US Citizen is denied a criminal trial under the laws of the United States for conspiring to use a dirty bomb while a French citizen who the Government claims was the 20th high jacker is given a criminal trial with all rights of an American citizen?

We now have an Administration that denies civil liberties to an American citizen while granting them to a French citizen?

What the hell is going on? Is this what you people are all supporting? French citizens are first class citizens and Americans are second class?

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#819064 - 06/14/02 08:26 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
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Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
I can't remember where in the Constitution it says that Congress, the President, or the Supreme Court is given the power to take away or suspend peoples rights when war is declared.
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#819065 - 06/14/02 10:41 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
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Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
The brief thoughts of Jonah Goldberg:

I think one reason why people are so split over military tribunals, detentions-without-trial etc for al-Quaeda terrorists is the essential chicken-or-the-egg-legal problem. Clearly, known and dangerous terrorists shouldn't be treated with all the rights and benefits which accrue to normal civilian defendants. But it is very difficult to feel comfortable with the government's word that someone is actually one of these terrorists. In effect you can't know someone doesn't deserve a civilian trial until you give them one. I am not entirely unsympathetic to this point. Still, at bottom, the issue is one of trust. Do we trust the government of the United States to use this power at this time. My short answer is, yes.

That doesn't mean the press, Congress and the public shouldn't do their best to make sure the government isn't abusing this power. And, that doesn't mean we can't change our minds if it appears that the government is being reckless. But, for now, since the government has the legal right to detain agents of foreign powers bent on killing Americans, the only argument for opposing the government's detention of people like Padilla is a slippery slope argument. And that is not sufficient. Saying "what's to stop the government from designating you or me a terrorist?" is at best a bad argument and at worst knee-jerk paranoia.
_________________________
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#819066 - 06/14/02 10:52 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
Why is it that a US Citizen is denied a criminal trial under the laws of the United States for conspiring to use a dirty bomb while a French citizen who the Government claims was the 20th high jacker is given a criminal trial with all rights of an American citizen?

We now have an Administration that denies civil liberties to an American citizen while granting them to a French citizen?

What the hell is going on? Is this what you people are all supporting? French citizens are first class citizens and Americans are second class?[/b]
The criminal trial of Zaccharias Moussaoi(sp?) poses no danger in terms of exposing intelligence sources and methods. A criminal trial of Jose Padilla, on the other hand, does. That should only reinforce the view that the Administration is using military courts only when security is an issue rather than because they derive some perverse enjoyment from depriving someone of their civil rights.
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#819067 - 06/15/02 10:53 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

Apology accepted (about the mispelling ONLY!) ;\)

When I asked the question about the President declaring war, I meant thru formal channels. Perhaps the President can declare war on his own, or he needs the approval of Congress? I really don't know, but I meant the latter.

Assuming he gets Congressional approval, how long does this war go on for? Probably forever.
Consequently all the Padilla's of the world will get the same treatment Mr. Padilla did. And, therefore, based on your own words, you would approve.

Right?

Derick
_________________________
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#819068 - 06/15/02 11:31 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
The criminal trial of Zaccharias Moussaoi(sp?) poses no danger in terms of exposing intelligence sources and methods. A criminal trial of Jose Padilla, on the other hand, does. That should only reinforce the view that the Administration is using military courts only when security is an issue rather than because they derive some perverse enjoyment from depriving someone of their civil rights.[/b]
How do you know this JBryan? Because the Attorney General (who after the past few weeks has a vested interest is making it sound like his agency has accomplished something) tells you so?

There have always been was in criminal trials to allow for secret testimony when national security is an issue. Indeed, it is possible for a judge to review the Government's case and decide the entire trial is secret -- under criminal justice procedures, not military justice procedures.

The issue of secrecy simply does not hold water because the Courts have always accommodated the national security need for secrecy.

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#819069 - 06/15/02 11:35 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by DT:
The brief thoughts of Jonah Goldberg:

[/b]
So says Jonah Goldberg who made his name by saying a President was lying on a whole host of topics based on very flimsy evidence.

Amazing how skeptical one can be if one wants to get new coverage and how one losses that skepticism if one is being paid to present a certain viewpoint in a televised argument.

Goldberg's is nothing more than a paid opinion whore, like all the other pundits. To even take his (or any of their) opinions seriously is to say one can make love to a prostitute, as opposed to just having sex with her.

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#819070 - 06/15/02 11:38 AM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by Derick:
George,

Apology accepted (about the mispelling ONLY!) ;\)

When I asked the question about the President declaring war, I meant thru formal channels. Perhaps the President can declare war on his own, or he needs the approval of Congress? I really don't know, but I meant the latter.

Assuming he gets Congressional approval, how long does this war go on for? Probably forever.
Consequently all the Padilla's of the world will get the same treatment Mr. Padilla did. And, therefore, based on your own words, you would approve.

Right?

Derick[/b]
Derick

if the people, through debate and public discussion, give the president the authority to suspend certain civil liberties, then yes, I can accept that -- whether I approve of it or not.

But that is NOT what is happening now.

Tell me, Derick, why do you think Il Duce does not go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war? Or,easier still, go to Congress with a law to suspend certain civil liberties and get their OK before he does so?

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#819071 - 06/15/02 12:00 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
How do you know this JBryan? Because the Attorney General (who after the past few weeks has a vested interest is making it sound like his agency has accomplished something) tells you so?[/b]
I know that Padilla was captured entering the US and his co-conspirators were captured in Pakistan which would imply the use of intelligence sources and methods. Moussaoi was caught pursuant to a suspicion he aroused at a Minnesota flight school thus not involving such methods. There was a closed session of the Senate Congressional Intelligence Committee last week concerning the Padilla case where the decision to keep him incommunicado was actually made.

 Quote:
There have always been was in criminal trials to allow for secret testimony when national security is an issue. Indeed, it is possible for a judge to review the Government's case and decide the entire trial is secret -- under criminal justice procedures, not military justice procedures.

The issue of secrecy simply does not hold water because the Courts have always accommodated the national security need for secrecy.[/b]
In the case of the first World Trade Center bombing secrecy was not maintained and sources and methods were revealed. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819072 - 06/15/02 12:02 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
So says Jonah Goldberg who made his name by saying a President was lying on a whole host of topics based on very flimsy evidence.

Amazing how skeptical one can be if one wants to get new coverage and how one losses that skepticism if one is being paid to present a certain viewpoint in a televised argument.

Goldberg's is nothing more than a paid opinion whore, like all the other pundits. To even take his (or any of their) opinions seriously is to say one can make love to a prostitute, as opposed to just having sex with her.[/b]
Talk about attacking the messenger. Might you have something substantive to say about his specific arguments?
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819073 - 06/15/02 12:44 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
[QUOTE]Talk about attacking the messenger. Might you have something substantive to say about his specific arguments?[/b]
No, I do not waste my time dealing with paid pundits ideas. They make money off selling their opinions to the highest bidder. And what sells them? If they are controversial and make good TV or radio.

So, no. I have nothing substantive to say about his arguments because anything he says is tainted by his desire to cash a check and get wealthy. That is fine. But I do not have to buy his product any more than I have to buy Kellogg Raisin Bran instead of Post Raisin Bran.

I would say the same thing about any other pundit as well -- liberal or conservative. They pimp their thoughts for cash. Nice job if you can get it -- requires very little work other than being a quick thinker and a good wordsmith. But I do not consider their opinions as anything more than a product they sell and certainly not worth spending time on.

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#819074 - 06/15/02 12:49 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Anonymous
Unregistered


 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
[QUOTE]In the case of the first World Trade Center bombing secrecy was not maintained and sources and methods were revealed. What you are suggesting is pure fantasy.[/b]
I see. And using the Criminal Justice System for Mr. Hanson, the most nototrious spy in FBI History who damaged this country far more than even Padillo could ever hope didn;t work either, did it?

That seemed to me to work VERY well.

But maybe it was because Hanson was an FBI agent --and the FBI just could not bring themselves to throw one of their own into a military prison, with no legal representation and held indefinitely without being charged. Why? Because they know full well, that if it happened top Hason it could happen to them as well.

You all, however, seem to feel you are free of such indignities -- but then, maybe you are all French citizens who are treated so much better by the Il Duce Regime than American Citizens.

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#819075 - 06/15/02 01:02 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
No, I do not waste my time dealing with paid pundits ideas. They make money off selling their opinions to the highest bidder. And what sells them? If they are controversial and make good TV or radio.

So, no. I have nothing substantive to say about his arguments because anything he says is tainted by his desire to cash a check and get wealthy. That is fine. But I do not have to buy his product any more than I have to buy Kellogg Raisin Bran instead of Post Raisin Bran.

I would say the same thing about any other pundit as well -- liberal or conservative. They pimp their thoughts for cash. Nice job if you can get it -- requires very little work other than being a quick thinker and a good wordsmith. But I do not consider their opinions as anything more than a product they sell and certainly not worth spending time on.[/b]
Come on George. This is all a smoke screen. You just don't have any effective counter argument so you resort to calling him names. Then when you are called on it you obscure the point by painting all columnists with the same broad brush. You can do better than that.

If your problem is with who said it and if it helps you to focus on the point just pretend that I said it and confine yourself to the specific arguments.
_________________________
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#819076 - 06/15/02 01:07 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by George061875:
I see. And using the Criminal Justice System for Mr. Hanson, the most nototrious spy in FBI History who damaged this country far more than even Padillo could ever hope didn;t work either, did it?

That seemed to me to work VERY well.

But maybe it was because Hanson was an FBI agent --and the FBI just could not bring themselves to throw one of their own into a military prison, with no legal representation and held indefinitely without being charged. Why? Because they know full well, that if it happened top Hason it could happen to them as well.

You all, however, seem to feel you are free of such indignities -- but then, maybe you are all French citizens who are treated so much better by the Il Duce Regime than American Citizens.[/b]
Comparing this to the Hanson case is apples to oranges. Hanson was a rogue agent who was working with the Russians. The only sources or methods that could be revealed in the course of his trial were Russian. There was no great intelligence work involved in finding him out (much to the shame of the FBI). The padilla case is altogether different.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#819077 - 06/15/02 02:35 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
...requires very little work...other than a quick mind ...a good wordsmith...certainly not worth spending time on...

Kinda resemble that remark, doncha George? \:D
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#819078 - 06/15/02 04:57 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
JohnC Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 1672
Loc: Lower Left Coast
 Quote:
George says:

This is the problem when you guys allow this sort of thing to become a partisan argument. You think you win points by pointing something significant out -- that Bush is better than Clinton. But this is not the argfument at all. And all the while you want to argue partisan politics, we are losing our freedom.[/b]
Whoa, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. ROFLMAO! George you are the biggest partisan on this board. You are the one who in every issue finds the need to attack the current administration. You are the one who in every exchange feels the need to insult the president and his aids constantly.

When controversial issues are debated on this forum people line up to give differing opinions. Although the sides can many times be easily identified with one political party or another, no one except you tries to make it a political issue. Good honest exchanges of ideas take place. Now look at your posts. Always revolving around attacking the president and his team. All you do is throw "what ifs" out there. You haven't provided evidence of anything[/b] that would support all your wild accusations. (I'm still waiting for the evidence that the Afghan war was about building an oil pipeline for George's buddies, or that Bush could have stopped 911 but didn't work hard enough at it, etc, etc)Talk about a partisan, political hack. Sheesh! I quit watching network and cable news years ago because I got tired of watching spin like yours.

I'll repeat something I said here on a different thread. The political MO of the Democratic party for years has been to throw as much garbage against the wall and hope some of it sticks. None of it does. But their follow-up thrust is to get enough air play for their wild charges so that those who won't think for themselves or those who still watch the network news will start to think there must be something to the charges because of the non-stop talk "in the news". You, George, are one of the Democrats mules. I'm sure your quite proud of it.

The fact that you ocassionally make a valid point while attacking only proves the old addage, a broken clock is right twice a day.

 Quote:
George also says:

Or are you invoking the "right wing conspiracy" type thinking that you mock so much when it is mentioned.[/b]
Uh, George, it's " vast[/b] right wing conspiracy." Please get it straight for future name calling.
_________________________
There are few joys in life greater than the absence of pain.

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#819079 - 06/15/02 05:41 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
btw, the Jonah G. thoughts were not from a published article but from a discussion board.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#819080 - 06/17/02 12:01 PM Re: Another One Bites The Dust
Derick Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/03/02
Posts: 3290
Loc: New York
George,

You asked:

 Quote:
Tell me, Derick, why do you think Il Duce does not go to Congress and ask for a declaration of war? Or,easier still, go to Congress with a law to suspend certain civil liberties and get their OK before he does so? [/b]
Are you equating a declaration of war with the President going before Congress with a law to suspend certain civil liberties? It sounds like you are. Keep in mind that you said the suspension of certain civil liberties with a declaration of war is acceptable to you.

I'm not sure who/what the President would declare war on. You can bet that whatever he proposed people like you, Senator Daschle and ACLU would be opposed to it.

Being that the war on terror is such a difficult thing to get a handle on, how would you feel about this proposal?

The feds arrest an American citizen suspected of being a terrorist and he is interrogated. Once they get all they can out of him, he is released to be tried by a jury of his peers. Any of the information obtained from him while in custody will not be admissible in court.

Would you find that acceptable?

Derick
_________________________
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