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#81936 - 10/20/08 04:04 PM Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Tricky Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Ventura County, CA
I'm new to this forum and know that piano's vary in condition, quality, etc., and that its virtually impossible to tell whether an asking price is reasonable without seeing the piano.

That said, I'm going to ask anyway. I'm looking at a 1986 5'8" walnut YAMAHA in a retail store. I don't know what YAMAHA models existed in 1986. Its been reconditioned, new hammers added, action checked (but no major rework). Action looks very good, exterior condition looks very good (very minor cosmetic flaws). Good sound, overall looks very nice.

Retail store (So. Calif.) asking $9850. Thoughts on this price?

Thanks

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#81937 - 10/20/08 04:48 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
verania5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 386
Loc: Michigan
Considering you can get a brand NEW Yamaha of that size for somewhat more than 10k, I'd say you are getting hosed on the deal. Definitely overpriced. I'd say bargain hard or look elsewhere.

EDIT:
This post apparently is very controversial. I want to reiterate it is not for a C2, but a G level grand piano.
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#81938 - 10/20/08 05:26 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Tricky Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Ventura County, CA
I thought a new C2 (5'8") would retail for around $25K (not sure where I got that info, may or may not be even close). I don't see a 5'8" in their less expensive lines, but maybe I'm wrong.

If this is true, anyone know how a 1986 model YAMAHA 5'8" would compare in terms of quality to a current C2? Were there multiple models back in the mid-80's? Is there one that is comparable within the YAMAHA line to the C2 in their current line?

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#81939 - 10/20/08 05:37 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
koiloco Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 622
Loc: California
New C2 is around $17.5K.

I would not pay $9800 for the 22 years old piano you mentioned regardless of what model it is. Price is too high.

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#81940 - 10/20/08 05:43 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
verania5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 386
Loc: Michigan
I was thinking of the G line - which is considerably cheaper than the C line. New G pianos can be had for < 10k. Yamaha has been around for ages, occasionally you see Yamaha pianos from the 60s.

Here's a link to compare your piano to:
http://pianocenter.com/used-yamaha.asp
_________________________
Steinway M & Yamaha P120

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#81941 - 10/20/08 06:00 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19195
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by verania5:
I was thinking of the G line - which is considerably cheaper than the C line. New G pianos can be had for < 10k.
[/b]
And the biggest G line is only 5'3".

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#81942 - 10/20/08 06:36 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 2604
Lines like "..you can get a brand NEW Yamaha of that size (5'8") for not much more than 10k." are irresponsible. The statement "New C2 is around $17.5K." is not correct. These posts set up shoppers for a great deal of frustration. These prices are thousands below the Yamaha national minimum selling price on a new C2PE.
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Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.

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#81943 - 10/20/08 07:30 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
koiloco Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 622
Loc: California
Marty,

While I respect you as a dealer and your knowledge in the industry and your wish to upkeep the piano price to make a decent living, I have to restate that "yes, you can get a C2 for around $17.5 give or take couple hundred dollars" How many would you like ? Come to the bay area, I'll get them for you.

For the O.P, my quoted price is correct as of about 2 months ago while I was still shopping for my 2nd grand. I live in the bay area where it's believed to be a buyer's market but in this economy, I don't think it will be hard for you to get the same price or at least close to it.

Yes, Marty is right about some posters here coming up with outrageously low prices and screw with your shopping experience, but who would you prefer to listen to ? Dealers who sell pianos or buyers who just purchased 2 grands within the last 8 months like me?

On the side note, new RX-2 are going for $13.5 in many areas, so C2 (with my price) is $4k more. That's still low ??? I rest my case.

No disrespect to anybody, just stating reality.

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#81944 - 10/20/08 08:38 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Tricky Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Ventura County, CA
I checked into this and the piano I'm looking at is a G2. Apparently there was no C line until recently when YAMAHA started making "good", "better" and "best" versions a number of years ago. They started making the small (4'11, 5'1"), low-end pianos to compete with the Korean and other imports -- these are the current GHs and GCs. The larger pianos became the C-line (C's don't come smaller than the C1, which is 5'3".

Basically the store is saying this piano is the C2 of its day, with aknowledged differences for upgrades they've made in the C series over the years.

Store says its rare to get an old G2 YAMAHA for under $10K.

?

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#81945 - 10/20/08 08:45 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
verania5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 386
Loc: Michigan
I am not pulling prices out of thin air. I was also piano shopping only a few months ago and I can state that you can buy a new Yamaha for just above 10k, G series. I am sorry I was not more clear. It absolutely is possible to get a Yamaha for that price but then pricing is always geographically sensitive. No offense intended for anyone.

Private prices are much lower. I saw a 2003 G2 Yamaha for under 5k around my area. It is a buyer's market, so you have to shop around.
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Steinway M & Yamaha P120

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#81946 - 10/20/08 10:44 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Tricky Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 04/27/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Ventura County, CA
Is there an organization of piano techs or other listing that would help me locate a piano tech that could evaluate a used piano if I elect to purchase from a private party? I'd want to hire a reputable tech to take a look at it and give me an independent quality evaluation.

My location is San Fernando Valley, CA.

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#81947 - 10/21/08 01:17 AM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
koiloco Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 622
Loc: California
Tricky,
I paid $11.5 for my GC1 (5'3") about 7 months ago.
GC1 is a trimmed down C1 but very comparable in tone and touch. As a matter of fact, i did not see any big diff between the 2 so I ended up with GC1.
At that time, the C1 was quoted for around $3k more and C2 was around $6K more. 2 months ago when I was shopping again, prices were still the same all the way up to C5 which I was interested in. This is after the price increase from Yammie. So don't always believe what dealers tell you. I just recognized that you are also in CA. You should be able to access many dealers around.

Regarding the G series, here is a recent seller around my area for a G3

G3 for sales

G2 - white

Tell your dealer to quit BSing you or you'll go somewhere else.

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#81948 - 10/21/08 05:55 AM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
pianobroker Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 4309
Loc: North Hollywood CA.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tricky:
Is there an organization of piano techs or other listing that would help me locate a piano tech that could evaluate a used piano if I elect to purchase from a private party? I'd want to hire a reputable tech to take a look at it and give me an independent quality evaluation.

My location is San Fernando Valley, CA. [/b]
Refer to the member directory of the Piano Technician's guild www.ptg.org
That's a good start,though there are many fine tuner/technicians in the San Fernando Valley not in the guild. Most will tell you the reputable places to shop aside from assisting you in the private party market.
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#81949 - 10/21/08 08:08 AM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Sir Lurksalot Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/19/04
Posts: 1241
The G2 is 5'7", not 5'8"


 Quote:
I saw a 2003 G2 Yamaha for under 5k around my area.
There is no such thing as a 2003 G2.

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#81950 - 10/21/08 08:50 AM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
verania5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 386
Loc: Michigan
I reiterate my price findings were with regard to the G series, not the C series, so apologies for any misunderstanding.
_________________________
Steinway M & Yamaha P120

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#81951 - 10/21/08 09:12 AM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
terminaldegree Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2620
Loc: western Wisconsin
verania,

I don't think Yamaha has produced a G2 since the early-mid 1990's. GB1, GC1, sure, but NO G2 exists from the vintage you're suggesting, and certainly not at that price (if you're talking about the current C2).
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#81952 - 10/21/08 09:17 AM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
tanjinjack Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 846
Loc: Malaysia
IMHO, the currently producing G series should be made different with the older G series that phased out in the 1990s.

The older G series have a full line up, from G1 (5'3") to G7 (7'4"/7'6"). The current G series has only 2 models, the GB1 (4'11") and GC1 (5'3") which are known to be the entry-level grands for Yamaha.

I would say that the older G series was replaced by C series bit by bit until mid 1990s and the GH, GA, GB or GC are a 'new' G series that are focusing on entry-level buyers.

For me, the current C series is at par with Kawai's current RX series.
The *current* G series is comparable to the Kawai's GM/GE.
The *older* G series is tied with the older Kawai's KG series.

I hope this helps to clarify things out.
Anyway, I don't think one could get a Yamaha grand easily for 10k except for GB1 and perhaps GC1.

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#81953 - 10/21/08 09:44 AM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
verania5 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/24/08
Posts: 386
Loc: Michigan
 Quote:
Originally posted by terminaldegree:
verania,

I don't think Yamaha has produced a G2 since the early-mid 1990's. GB1, GC1, sure, but NO G2 exists from the vintage you're suggesting, and certainly not at that price (if you're talking about the current C2). [/b]
That is the price of dealing with Internet private sales. I am sure you are right. I didn't actually go in and take a look, but I saw it on a craigslist ad.
_________________________
Steinway M & Yamaha P120

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#81954 - 10/21/08 02:08 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
Ummm...can you guys not get the new GC2 then?
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#81955 - 10/21/08 02:44 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
KevinG Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/11/07
Posts: 55
Loc: S. Jersey
Wow, learn something new every day.

A quick google search turns up the "new for october 2008" GC2. (in the UK, at least)
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Yamaha DC3M4

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#81956 - 10/21/08 03:12 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
FogVilleLad Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 4680
Loc: San Francisco
Tricky, [/b] koiloco is giving you good, current info.

Re the MSP (Minimum Selling Price) mentioned in Mary Flinn's post, it's true that Yamaha is attempting to set minimum prices, but that doesn't mean that you or any other consumer must pay them.

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#81957 - 10/21/08 03:21 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Chris H. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/05
Posts: 2837
Loc: UK.
That brand new GC2 comes in at £9000 (around $15000). Maybe that does start to make the 22 year old G2 seem expensive at $10000.
_________________________
Pianist and piano teacher.

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#81958 - 10/24/08 05:14 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
koiloco Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/16/08
Posts: 622
Loc: California
 Quote:
Originally posted by Marty Flinn:
Lines like "..you can get a brand NEW Yamaha of that size (5'8") for not much more than 10k." are irresponsible. The statement "New C2 is around $17.5K." is not correct. These posts set up shoppers for a great deal of frustration. These prices are thousands below the Yamaha national minimum selling price on a new C2PE. [/b]
Marty,

You have short term memory issue ? or did I read your post incorrectly ?

what's not correct and unreal about being able to get a C2 for around ~17.5K ?

I rest my case.

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#81959 - 10/24/08 05:42 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
doremi Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1714
LOL, you posted this here too, koiloco?

What is unreal is that only 10% of piano buyers are going to get that C2 for around ~ 17.5K from their competitive dealers.

90% of piano buyers will pay more to subsidize their non-competitive dealers.
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#81960 - 10/24/08 06:30 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
Marty Flinn Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/25/06
Posts: 2604
I had to go back and check some dates. As early as March 2006 there were several discussions on the forum about the Yamaha national minimum selling price being set. At that time or shortly before then Yamaha presented its dealer network with a minimum selling price for new Yamaha grands and Disklavier grands. They were very explicit as to penalties for those dealers found to violate this pricing. These were not guidlines, they were lines in the sand. This came from Yamaha, not me or not any dealer. This is not new. Yes, it is legal. Yamaha is not stupid.

You will notice it is not on verticals or digitals.

Since that time dealers have been very careful not to violate this floor on pricing. I cannot discuss the actual prices, but I will tell you they are materially below margins of profit consistent for sustained retailing of pianos.

Exceptions to this are school loan pianos, B stock, dealer returns, bona fide institutional sales, rental returns, outside promotional display instruments, aged dated goods before recent price increase. Those are the only exceptions that come to mind. Yamaha tracks these carefully.

You can understand when I see prices quoted on this forum that are materially below this list I want to weigh in and say that if there was a price quoted below this list, there must be some special circumstance along with it, or at the very least it is not the norm and universal.

I responded to Koiloco on another thread.

It is not about being "competitive". It is about keeping a very valuable francise for a most popular line of product. It is also about earning a marginal return on investment. 10% of the buyers of new C2's will not be getting them at $17.5 unless those pianos fall into those catagories I listed above.

Again, discussions of a GC2 available in UK are hardly relevant to the original poster's, Tricky, question. Verania5's comment about a new one for "somewhat over $10k" is misleading when now we can establish that a new GC2 in walnut (tricky's comparison) would be around $15k. Such a GC2 would have to be transported from the UK at the buyers expense and unboxed and made ready at the buyers expense and would come with no U.S. warranty.
_________________________
Co-Author of The Complete Idiot's Guide To Buying A Piano. A "must read" before you shop.
Work for west coast dealer for Yamaha, Schimmel, Bosendorfer, Wm. Knabe.

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#81961 - 10/24/08 07:51 PM Re: Help with pricing YAMAHA 5'8"
james c Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/23/08
Posts: 31
Loc: Berkeley, CA
I had a 1973 Yamaha G1 from 1989 to 1997. It was all I could afford back then as a young artist/teacher. Fantastic sound, sounded like a much bigger piano, especially in the bass- but a terrible action even after a good regulation. The new Yahamas have a sound I cannot bear.

In 1995 I played a Yahama concert grand from the mid 1980's that I really liked. Action was very nice.

I recall that the C was the so called 'Conservatory' series, better materials than the more budget G-line.

HTH

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