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#828634 - 08/09/04 12:17 PM "I am a war criminal."
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Words that John Kerry will not say. And maybe, he shouldn't have to. A few thoughts:

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/casey_rivkin200408090832.asp
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#828635 - 08/09/04 12:20 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
The problem is the only one saying Kerry is a war criminal is Kerry himself. (Oh, and Shantinik).
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#828636 - 08/09/04 01:49 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Hey, if he says he is a war criminal, and he's a lawyer, and he knows the acts he committed, I think it's terrific that he is prepared to admit it. (Dropping thousands of tons of WMD on innocent civilians, bombing dykes and rice paddies are war crimes too.)

But it is hardly what I want in a President. The precedent is horrifying (and that's true whether he could have been charged as a war criminal or not, which makes the National Review article, as usual, irrelevant.)

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#828637 - 08/09/04 01:55 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
But it is hardly what I want in a President. The precedent is horrifying (and that's true whether he could have been charged as a war criminal or not, which makes the National Review article, as usual, irrelevant.)[/b]

As usual, you misstate the premise of the article which is not that John Kerry is not a war criminal because he cannot be charged as one but that his actions, arguably, were not war crimes.
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#828638 - 08/09/04 01:57 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
...bombing dykes... [/b]
I'm suprised the ACLU isn't all over his case. \:D

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#828639 - 08/09/04 02:04 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
shantinik,

I think you might be missing the central point which is in the last paragraph of the article.

Now, since I was so diplomatic with you, would you reward me by sending me a PM describing what Wolfowitz does for fun in private? (or something like that which you mentioned in a long ago post)

(any icon here for rubbing one's hands in anticipation? \:D )

I don't forget those kinds of statements. ;\)
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#828640 - 08/09/04 02:06 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Where's LadyElton when we need her?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#828641 - 08/09/04 02:08 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
JBryan,

Excuse me but the key statement is "Decisions on the interpretation and application of the laws of war should remain in the hands of American institutions, responsible to the American electorate."

The article was directed against the UN's coveting of that right
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#828642 - 08/09/04 02:12 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
So MM, just to make sure we understand, is Kerry a war criminal or not?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#828643 - 08/09/04 02:16 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
It doesn't matter whether Kerry can be charged as a war criminal. What matters is that he thinks he is, and that the electorate knows he thinks he is.

Do you want a President who thinks he's a war criminal, and thinks it is okay for a war criminal to be President?

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#828644 - 08/09/04 02:17 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by MusicMagellan:
JBryan,

Excuse me but the key statement is "Decisions on the interpretation and application of the laws of war should remain in the hands of American institutions, responsible to the American electorate."[/b]
Not with regard to the specific point of John Kerry being a war criminal.

 Quote:
The article was directed against the UN's coveting of that right [/b]
Yes, I know.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#828645 - 08/09/04 02:19 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
It doesn't matter whether Kerry can be charged as a war criminal. [/b]
Yes, it doesn't matter if he can be charged as a war criminal. I believe I made that point.

 Quote:
What matters is that he thinks he is, and that the electorate knows he thinks he is.

Do you want a President who thinks he's a war criminal, and thinks it is okay for a war criminal to be President? [/b]
That is a better question.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#828646 - 08/09/04 02:37 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
It doesn't matter whether Kerry can be charged as a war criminal. [/b]
Yes, it doesn't matter if he can be charged as a war criminal. I believe I made that point.

 Quote:
What matters is that he thinks he is, and that the electorate knows he thinks he is.

Do you want a President who thinks he's a war criminal, and thinks it is okay for a war criminal to be President? [/b]
That is a better question. [/b]
Turn around is fair play. Ask yourself if you want/have a president who is an alcoholic, who has stopped drinking, and who thinks it's okay for an alcoholic to be president.

Actually, all of this borders on the ridiculous.

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#828647 - 08/09/04 02:44 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
If you wish to equate alcoholism with being a war criminal then that is up to you but you will be disqualifying from public service many former Presidents plus many past and present members of Congress.

I actually don't think John Kerry is a war criminal but the point Shantinik makes that John Kerry himself thinks he is a war criminal is a good one.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#828648 - 08/09/04 02:50 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Alcoholism is a disease, and many people stop drinking and continue to lead thoroughly fulfilling lives. That said, Bush was not an alcoholic, any more than I am. I drank in college too, and probably a bit too much at times. Swearing off alcohol does not mean you are an alcoholic.

I'm surprised to hear someone who accepts the Christian faith compare someone who, after a religious conversion, made a decision to stop drinking, to a war criminal guilty of killing innocent civilians. They just don't rise to the same level.
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#828649 - 08/09/04 02:57 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
For what it's worth--this is some pretty low crappy stuff. It's total conjecture.

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#828650 - 08/09/04 02:59 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom-*K:
For what it's worth--this is some pretty low crappy stuff. It's total conjecture. [/b]
I need clarification.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#828651 - 08/09/04 03:49 PM Re: "I am a war criminal."
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
I would like to think we'd set higher standards for the US President than we would for ordinary citizens. Unfortunately, with these two characters as our choices, those higher standards are moot.

shantinik,

Your point is well taken. But, given all the other issues involved in this election, it's not nearly enough to sway my decision either way.

Regarding whether Kerry was actually a war criminal per se, I'd say that, if we were to set the bar this low, too many other soldiers in combat would qualify. So, pragmatically, my answer is no.

No, I don't want a President who was (?) an alcoholic as President. I use a question mark because I don't believe there is such a thing as a former alcoholic. And I would not want that time bomb hovering over the Presidency. (Yes I know about Grant. Those were different times.)

No evidence whatsoever I know about that Bush is a true alcoholic (which, as we all know, has little if anything to do with the amount consumed).
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(watch this space)

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#828652 - 08/10/04 07:16 AM Re: "I am a war criminal."
TomFL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/10/04
Posts: 267
Loc: SW Florida
 Quote:
I would like to think we'd set higher standards for the US President than we would for ordinary citizens.
Makes me yearn for the Bill Clinton days of yore..... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :rolleyes:

NOT!!!!!

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