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#832541 - 10/28/04 06:47 AM Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
or do they think the oil for Food scandal to be a figment of the Republican imagination? Do they still believe that George's blustery persona turned off the genteel sensibilities of the countries of Europe, or do they know those countries were bought by Saddam?

Just wondering.. None of the liberals ever comment on this very significant issue.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#832542 - 10/28/04 06:56 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
No one from the DNC has given told them what to think yet.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#832543 - 10/28/04 07:26 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Kofi Anan is a sanctimonious hypocrite who has the temerity to lecture the US about morality. The UN is lining his - and other "world leaders" -pockets while thousands are dying in Sudan.

The UN has all but outlived its usefulness.

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#832544 - 10/28/04 11:07 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MLT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 356
Asking a liberal what they beleive right now is like trying to pin jello to a bulletin board.

Good luck,

Kirk

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#832545 - 10/28/04 11:18 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by MLT:
Asking a liberal what they beleive right now is like trying to pin jello to a bulletin board.

Good luck,

Kirk [/b]
I'm often called a "liberal" here. You won't find much equivocation in what I posted.

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#832546 - 10/28/04 11:29 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
I don't comment on it much for several reasons.

See, I believe it is largely beside the point. A world leader is supposed to lead the world. There will always be resistance to anything a world leader would like others to do. That's where the whole "leading" part of "world leader" comes in, see? Therefore, I believe other countries probably had lots of reasons -- some legitimate and some less so -- for not wanting to support the U.S. in the Iraq war. It was Bush's job to pull them into the boat through *negotiation* and persuasion. He failed. Period.

The other problem I have with the whole "Oil for Food" thing the wingers keep raising is that it fits a theme -- a very disturbing theme of this presidency.

That theme is, "Hey, whaddaywant from me, I'm just the president?!" Everything is a bunch of excuses with this guy. Nothing is ever his fault. Nothing could ever be done better. Mistakes are never made. It's very transparent, and it's getting old.

So go ahead and hide behind "Oil for Food" as the reason for the abysmal situation in Iraq. Or hide behind blaiming the UN for all your problems. Or blame little green space aliens, OK? *Bush* started this war, and *Bush* was wrong about the very premise of why we needed to go to war when we went to war, and *Bush* botched it badly once we got there.

He's on his way out. And he richly deserves it.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#832547 - 10/28/04 11:32 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
there's my answer...not of consequence
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#832548 - 10/28/04 11:42 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
[deleted]
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#832549 - 10/28/04 11:44 AM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
your perception of the situation is totally clouded by liberality.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#832550 - 10/28/04 12:16 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Hey, you edited your post again, Apple!

I guess I will have to delete my post, as my meaning has now been distorted.

I guess I'll just start copying your original replies into my responses to protect my meaning in the future. . . .
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#832551 - 10/28/04 12:20 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I told you it took me 5 minutes. I swear I didn't try and trick you. That's why they have those little quote things at the top of the page.

sorry.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#832552 - 10/28/04 12:30 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Let's see, which group do I want to belong to:

The "wingers" blame the U.N. for everything.

The "lefties" blame the U.S. for everything.

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#832553 - 10/28/04 12:32 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Apple:

I told you it took me 5 minutes. I swear I didn't try and trick you. That's why they have those little quote things at the top of the page.

sorry.[/b]


I'm not saying you can't edit. I just think you shouldn't conceal that you have done so. Especially if someone answered you directly.

I'll just take steps to make sure my meaning isn't distorted and copy your entire post when I reply to it. Or just think twice about replying at all.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#832554 - 10/28/04 12:43 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1159
Loc: NY
cindy,

I do very much agree with you on that point! In fact, I think I said it in my very first post on politics here in the coffee room.

For crying out loud, that is what negotiation is all about, as I would imagine you well know from being an attorney (and I from negotiating teaming arrangements on bids and contracts).

Is Bush a good negotiator himself? I really don't know. Is Cheney? That's hilarious. He'd be the first to admit he's not. Rumsfeld? I think he's an arrogant loose cannon (e.g., that a**hole remark about "the Old Europe.")

Powell? Yes, that's one of his long suits. But we know he was muzzled by the administration. And my understanding is he is not really a strategist which is part of the reason he was ignored.

So I'm voting for Bush on the assumption he's going to dump all his direct reports. Just kidding.

But to me it is a very gray situation. Just once I'd like to hear someone from the "left" say much the same thing. But, believe me, I won't hold my breath for that.
_________________________
(watch this space)

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#832555 - 10/28/04 12:47 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
MM, I'm afraid I can't admit that there's much grey in this situation.

I mean, if Bush were strong on the economy but had messed up in Iraq, there's be some grey.

If Bush had stormed into Iraq and found a nuclear bomb with "Destination: Cleveland" printed on it, maybe I could forgive the bungling and see some grey.

If Bush had not run up this huge deficit all the while insisting he's going to dole out even more tax cuts, I'd see some grey.

And that drug program that he tries to pass off as a health care initiative? Sheez.

Bush's record is *awful,* MM. It's really breathtaking, it is. Not much grey there, I'm afraid.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#832556 - 10/28/04 12:48 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
Why are the righties wingers and the lefties just lefties?

This is Righty: (yes, he is my only beanie)



He has no wings.

I would think it would be easier to get a jack@ss to fly than an elephant based on the weight issue and of course the hot air emanating from it's orifices. \:D

Of course there is always Dumbo to consider I guess. ;\)
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#832557 - 10/28/04 01:01 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:

See, I believe it is largely beside the point. A world leader is supposed to lead the world. There will always be resistance to anything a world leader would like others to do. That's where the whole "leading" part of "world leader" comes in, see? Therefore, I believe other countries probably had lots of reasons -- some legitimate and some less so -- for not wanting to support the U.S. in the Iraq war. It was Bush's job to pull them into the boat through *negotiation* and persuasion. He failed. Period.[/b]

This shows a profound lack of understanding both the situation and what negotiating entails.

You cannot negotiate with countries regarding their getting involved with dealing with another country when they are lining their pockets off the country in question. What *is* it about this you don't understand? Secondly, those of us who support the war have been trying to get it through your collective heads that your antiwar crap is doing harm. No one can negotiate with *anyone* when the enemy is being emboldened by the knowledge that we are not united in our effort to defeat them. What is it about *this* you don't understand? Kerry couldn't have negotiated any better in this situation. Too many of the countries we should have been able to count on were on the take.


The other problem I have with the whole "Oil for Food" thing the wingers keep raising is that it fits a theme -- a very disturbing theme of this presidency.

That theme is, "Hey, whaddaywant from me, I'm just the president?!" Everything is a bunch of excuses with this guy. Nothing is ever his fault. Nothing could ever be done better. Mistakes are never made. It's very transparent, and it's getting old.[/b]


I am simply stunned by the absolute emptiness of your logic. I don't even know where to begin to correct such a warped view.

So go ahead and hide behind "Oil for Food" as the reason for the abysmal situation in Iraq. Or hide behind blaiming the UN for all your problems. Or blame little green space aliens, OK? *Bush* started this war, and *Bush* was wrong about the very premise of why we needed to go to war when we went to war, and *Bush* botched it badly once we got there.[/b]

Geez...... I mean, really..... do you *ever* open your eyes?

He's on his way out. And he richly deserves it. [/b]

Sorry Cindy. It ain't gonna happen.

_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#832558 - 10/28/04 01:11 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Cindysphinx:
I mean, if Bush were strong on the economy but had messed up in Iraq, there's be some grey.
[/b]
Yeah, these low interest rates, rising home values, low unemployment numbers and glowing quarterly earnings are just KILLING me.

penny

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#832559 - 10/28/04 01:16 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Consider yourself lucky, Penny.

And Larry?

Like Kerry says, just because Bush couldn't do it doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

Gotta run folks. You've been swell!
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#832560 - 10/28/04 01:20 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1159
Loc: NY
cindy,

c'mon be fair. You know as well as I do that our economic problems are a result of the burst market bubble that effectively preceded Bush's administration. And you also know that, apart from that incurred by the Afghan and Iraq war, the deficit is a result of the decreased tax revenues from the resulting economic problems.

Your playing games here. I ignore others when they pop off about the economy because their ignorance is so obvious I don't even bother explaining. But I know you know about what I just said ... oh yes you do! \:D

Regarding tax cuts, history has shown that the "signal" provided to the big investors who drive the market is what counts ... much less so the actual increased spending by people like you and I.

In particular, the cuts have to be for the wealthy for this "signal" to work. The administration's "excuse" about small businesses is BS. The tax code could be changed to help small businesses without rewarding wealthy individuals.

But can they tell the general public what the reason really is, as sound as it is for ALL of us ultimately? Are you kidding? And, by the way, wasn't it you who asked somewhere else about when is the market going to go up? Hey cindy, you can't have it both ways. You want the market to go up just like all of us do, you have to do what you have to do, whether you think its' fair, in some idealistic sense, or not

Regarding the Bush drug policy, I do agree it's a joke. What to me was especially hilarious was Bush's "solution" based on generic drugs which effectively negates the other justification for high drug prices, namely the cost of R&D for new drugs. (I'm not spelling out the conflict here. I suggest it's obvious after some thought. I'll just leave it for the Bush-is-always right crowd to figure it out.)

And last but not least, why did you choose to change my spelling of gray to grey? Huh?
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(watch this space)

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#832561 - 10/28/04 01:34 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1159
Loc: NY
Larry,

By defending the faulty diplomacy of this administration, you lose credibility for Bush supporters. I disregard what virtrually all the other kerry supporters say in the Coffee room. Most of them are airheads. But cindy does make decent points ... now and then.

Although it was a different time with different conditions, Nixon and Kissinger knew how to play the diplomacy game well. When you are dealing with rational regimes, however despicable, there is a basis for compromises, economic offsets, etc. The premise here is that the main UN parties involved, including France, are rational regimes as was the Soviet.

Hitler's Germany was and the Islamic fascists are NOT rational. They can not be negotiated with, only destroyed. We need a General Sherman over there, not some of the pussies involved. I'm counting on Bush taking off the friggin' gloves and doing it right in his second term -- screw the media, the left, and world opinion!
_________________________
(watch this space)

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#832562 - 10/28/04 01:36 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
 Quote:
Originally posted by MusicMagellan:
You know as well as I do that our economic problems are a result of the burst market bubble that effectively preceded Bush's administration. ? [/b]
Actually, I think who is in the White House has little to do with the economy (unless we're getting taxed to death). Clinton shouldn't take credit for the go-go late-90s, nor should he take the blame when the bubble burst. Both those economic swings had to do with a little something we called Y2K, coinciding with the explosion of the internet. Companies went nuts updating their computer equipment to avoid some prophesized disaster. That churned our little economic engine quite well for awhile (ah, remember the good ole' days, when the Nasdaq went over 4,000).

Then, the scare was over. And etailers hadn't quite learned how to make a profit yet. Thus the bubble.

It was fortuitous for Bush that the "recession" was only the short dip that it was. Perhaps Greenspan should take the credit, but we know that he is beyond partisan politics.

So, to paraphrase Dems from earlier times: "It's not the economy, stupid."

penny

p.s. I hope this little tidbit: Your playing games here. I ignore others when they pop off about the economy because their ignorance is so obvious I don't even bother explaining.[/b] wasn't directed at me.

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#832563 - 10/28/04 01:46 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1159
Loc: NY
As they say, Penny, we are in violent agreement about that. But actually, Greenspan, in a way, might deserve some of the blame.

Recall him saying, after the series of tax increases, that we need better measures of the impact of technology on productivity? Several investment professionals I know (with long experience) claim Greenspan overreacted with his tax cuts.

But at least he deserves credit for, in effect, pointing out that the problem was really with determining the right economic measures to use to analyze the condition of today's, not yesteryears', market.

P.S. No I certainly didn't mean you Penny. However, I have to tell you that I so rarely find fault with what those on the so-called "right" post that I have to accept that I'm not nearly as objective as I'd like to think I am.

P.P.S. Also, don't take my posted "insults" very seriously. In a way, I'm just joining in the fun of talking that way in this room. It's very cathartic. ;\)
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(watch this space)

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#832564 - 10/28/04 01:50 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
Penny Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2943
Loc: San Juan Capistrano, CA
Agreed (but you meant interest rate increases, not tax increases, right?).

penny

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#832565 - 10/28/04 01:52 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1159
Loc: NY
(edited my last post)
_________________________
(watch this space)

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#832566 - 10/28/04 01:53 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1159
Loc: NY
oops, yes, I meant interest rate increases.
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(watch this space)

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#832567 - 10/28/04 01:53 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by MusicMagellan:
However, I have to tell you that I so rarely find fault with what those on the so-called "right" post that I have to accept that I'm not nearly as objective as I'd like to think I am.

[/b]
well, just because a clear understanding of financial reality veers you toward the right, it doesn't mean you need to apologise.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#832568 - 10/28/04 01:54 PM Re: Do liberals believe that countries were bribed?
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1159
Loc: NY
thank you, apple. You never fail me! \:D
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(watch this space)

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