Larry said:

"No, I haven't been talkind directly to Frank. I don't have to."

With all due respect, if you haven't been talking to Frank, you aren't in a position to tell anyone that "It isn't going to happen this time, whether you approve of *how* it gets done or not." Only the site owner is in a position to make such a statement, and Frank really hasn't said anything quite that forthright.

Kreisler said:

"Frank, being different than congress, can do whatever he wants with piano world."

Absolutely true. No argument on that from this quarter. It's Frank's board, he can do as he wishes.

With all due respect, if you haven't been talking to Frank, you aren't in a position to tell anyone that "It isn't going to happen this time, whether you approve of *how* it gets done or not." Only the site owner is in a position to make such a statement, and Frank really hasn't said anything quite that forthright. [/b]

You are mistaken. This is *my* thread. I started it, and I started it for a purpose. I intend to reach that purpose, and I will get there even if I have to drag the negative thinking agenda pushers with me. That's how it works when you start a thread. It's "yours" so to speak, and as long as it isn't dealing with something improper, the one who starts the thread has some say in how it progresses. Frank *has* spoken on the topic, and encouraged the topic to be discussed. I think he meant for it to be discussed in a positive manner, by people who were trying to arrive and some solutions, not be ran over by a bunch of nitwits who are more interested in whatever little ego issue they are dealing with.

If you'd like to see the depth of wisdom some of these negative people possess, go to the thread about "is Yamaha desperate". Observe how concerned they actually are about the issue.

Larry, why don't you just relax and let Frank run his forums.

I'm having to work really hard to keep from telling you just exactly what I think of you, Kathy.

The forums have grown. They are beginning to be more than one person can keep track of, and help is needed. A year ago Frank asked for ideas of how to deal with this kind of stuff because of the work involved. It's even busier now. We tried to discuss it, and the same thing happened then that happened this time - a bunch of half wits who felt compelled to get their two cents worth in about every little petty personal vendetta they had about someone else cluttered it up until it looked like a bunch of chickens running around, was turned into a total waste, and then dropped because those who were trying to accomplish something got tired of having to push the idiots like you out of the way. For your information, I was against the idea at the time, and did not participate in that effort.

Now we are under attack once more, and you aren't smart enough to understand how or why, and based on your flippant attitude toward the posting of nude women on the PF, you really don't care. Since you *don't* actually care what happens, the only reason I can figure for your repeated attempts to poke a stick in the spokes of progress is that you are more concerned with your petty vendettas than you are in being productive. Once again, Frank has expressed an interest in seeing what ideas the group can come up with. Once again, a cackling gaggle of geese nearly ended the discussion, and seem bent on ending it once more. Relax and let Frank run his forums? If Frank listens to people like you, he won't *have* any forums.

Maybe you don't care what happens here, but I do.

Frank! Chill plzzz your going to have an attack yourself. Please stay deep in Cherokee Country where you can't hurt anyone. Do you have aspirations to get into politics? This Frank the owner of piano world would be bst off without you trying to run his ship for him.

the above is from JUST ONE post of larry's.

personally i find the above quotes FAR MORE offensive than seeing a woman's naked breasts. breasts are beautiful. larry's words are ugly.

actually, they are more than ugly. they are abusive. larry is consistently verbally abusive on these forums, and it is one reason many valuable people who contributed a great deal have left.

larry, i've brought this to your attention before, but you continue to not get it. i think the people who so ardently support you must think verbal abuse is normal and OK. it is not.

arry, i've brought this to your attention before, but you continue to not get it. i think the people who so ardently support you must think verbal abuse is normal and OK. it is not.[/b]

Well, verbal abuse can come in many forms, can't it Pique? I suggest you wash your own windows before you start looking into mine.

Abuse? Hardly.

I only sense frustration with unrelenting obstructionists.

my windows are quite clear, thanks. and i'd be happy if i could avoid your venomous attacks on people by simply not looking in your windows. unfortunately they are out on the street for all to see.

Thank you, Mark.

Now Pique can direct us to some posts *she* has made in the last two days that were productive.

Larry, I like you, even though you've tried to smear me a few times. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Yes I think you are right to say that the naked girls have no place here but stop trying to be such an righteously holy policeman OK? I do think that you are an abusive tadpole who probably hasn't had any for a long time to quote another nip-wit visitor to this forum.
oh, and please respect pique a little more

Tell ya what guys,
I have absolutley no interest in making alliances in here or getting anyone mad for that matter!
WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IS THE SMUT IN THE YAMAHA DESPERATE THREAD REMOVED SO MY NINE YEAR OLD NEICE CAN SIT HERE WITH ME AND LEARN SOME FACTS ABOUT THE PIANOS THAT SHE SO DESPERATELY WANTS TO PLAY!
If we need another person here to remove smut like that with minutes of it being posted! I'll do it! I have no particular credentials except strong moral values and love of music, especially the piano! Oh yeah i can read and write too!
SO! If anyone chooses to attack my motives for wanting to help Frank out, then attack away!

I can assure you that my only motive is keeping SMUTTY PICTURES, LINKS and LANGUAGE out of the Piano Forums as someone else had offered!

But stop wasting time talking about it! Let Frank do what he is going to do and leave it! This is getting ridiculous!
ProPiano

Yea.....and then we'll be left with only people like Larry and Norburt
How Sad.

I'm really glad others can see throuh this abusive, troll-hunting, full of venom idiot Larry.
I've tried to calm him down a number of times but he just keeps going and going and going and going............

I think that I can just see a tennie-weenie, very small, vien protruding and throbing on the left hand side of Larry's temple, amd the smallest twitch in his right eye.....LARRY.... self nominated KING OF PIANO WORLD maybe the entire intelectual world as well? :p

I am stunned.

A list of volunteers has been made.

We've sort of agreed that we only want filth and xxx stuff removed from the forums.

BUT the thread just keeps on going.

Take a look at Larry's posts in this thread. In almost every sinlge one he has offended, been extremely rude, lacked tact, talked about chickens or geese, talked about other peoples' stupidity, used 5,000 words when more than half would have been sufficient, repeated himself ad infinitum (because he feels we mortals don't understand him)and keeps on telling us to shut up add something constructive or get out! I can't see that any of the above is constructive at all. Have you finished your temper tantrum yet?

Let me repeat myself.

None of us want to see filth/xxx stuff here.

A team of volunteers has been drawn up to remove this stuff, and only this stuff.

We are now waiting for FRANK, the owner to get back to us to let us know his intentions on how we can (or how he wants) us to implement this.

STOP.

"This is *my* thread. I started it, and I started it for a purpose. I intend to reach that purpose, and I will get there even if I have to drag the negative thinking agenda pushers with me."

Yes, you started the thread. But you cannot *guarantee* that your purpose, developing a regime of moderation in the PF, will eventually happen, even if you try your best. Why not? Because the owner of the forum, despite the fact that he has asked for suggestions, may at the end of the day conclude that the need for removing the garbage is not as great as the risks of heavy-handed moderation. Frank may decide to follow the Hippocratic oath: first, do no harm.

Actually, there is a school of thought that the proper reading of the Hippocratic oath is as follows: "Declare the past, diagnose the present, foretell the future; practice these acts. As to disease, make a habit of two things -- to help, or at least to do no harm." This translation, I think, has quite a bit of relevance in our present discussion.

Larry, I know that you've reached a conclusion that the PF would be better off with some degree of moderation. I know that other posters have reached the same conclusion. I probably agree with that point of view, depending on who the moderator is and how the moderator's powers are structured. However, there are others who reach a different judgment. You may believe that their motives or intent are less than genuine, but I do not. The fact that they disagree with you (and probably me) doesn't mean that their opinion is totally unfounded, or irrational, or motivated by some hidden agenda. They seem to think that there is great risk tha the proposed cure won't help, and that it may in fact do harm. If the moderation is set up properly, I don't agree, but that doesn't mean that their point of view is obstructionist or asinine.

The reason people are reacting the way they are reacting, in my opinion, is because you are treating everyone who disagrees with you as if they are the enemy. They aren't, and they have a valid point of view.

And this, by the way, is what I meant when I said that you were not benevolent. You do have a tendency to go into attack mode when someone disagrees with you. (Remember, in the context of this thread, I'm not one of the ones disagreeing with you about whether the right moderator with the right powers would be a good idea.)

In any event, Mozart is right. This is all just pointless rambling until Frank tells us what he wants to do. Fourteen pages of this stuff is surely enough for Frank to have gotten the full flavor of all the various points of view, and while it may be entertaining it isn't productive until Frank decides which way to go.

I suspect everyone is tiring of reading this stuff, but I would like to add one other point - and that is Larry mentioned 2 issues. One was the smut stuff.

The second issue is also significant. That's the issue of people who grossly misrepresent themselves in the Piano Forum - as opposed to the Coffee Room.

These are sales people or industry reps who pretend they are something that they are not - and go on to propound the benefits of a piano as if they were a consumer - or trash a competitor's product as if they were a consumer or as a school administrator as has been done.

Admittedly, even some of our best sales/industry members have occasionally lapsed into shameless promotion - but most of the time things work.

On the other hand, what do we feel should happen with the troll-like folks who are either promoting their own or trashing someone else's piano without labeling themselves as industry people? I think Larry's done a service to expose them - though, it ain't always a pretty thing.

I think people exposed as dealers or industry professionals who do not clearly label themselves as such, should 1) be warned and 2)if they don't clean up their act quickly... be eliminated from the board. I think we all enjoy learning about the particulars about a particular piano - but want to know who is saying what. Fake consumers, fake piano executives do a disservice to everyone.

K

Is there currently a rule (rather than a custom) that pros must identify their affiliations?

Shall we say it is an unwritten rule...

There are some well-meaning individuals who are in the "biz", that have posted anonomously. There have been some who tried to use the board to knock a competitor, or a competing line. There is no written rule against this. However, we as a board felt that full disclosure need not include the actual place where they worked - just that they were in the industry in some capacity.

It helps give perspective.

I love harpo!

Jolly, It should become a written rule, IMHO.

Actually it is written down. During registration, everyone agrees to the following:

"You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law."

Trashing other lines would fall under the knowingly false material as well as inaccurate.

IN addition, there are more specific rules calling for PF members to identify themselves as dealers or to identify their relationships with dealers or manufacturers. I couldn't find those rules in a quick search just now, but I remember reading them not too long ago.

Dan

!!!!!!!!!

I can't believe this is going on for this many pages.

I can't say I'll be back to read any replies, but if you feel the need, PM me instead.

It's really quite simple:

If our two biggest worries are profanity and pornography the the simplest thing to do is
1) expand the filter used to *** out profanity.... simple
2) disable any HTML and/or Java in posts.

This is the reason for the "probation" period that was mentioned a couple of weeks ago.
You would limit "newbie" members to text only, no UBB code, no HTML... no ability to post pictures or link to anything offsite. This pretty much removes the problem of fly-by-night posters wreaking havoc on public forums, and is a policy instituted by many forums.

No moderators needed, no police, no more 20 page disputes about who should be our leader.

Hmmmm? Now there's an idea. Is is possible to limit just newbies use of HTML and UBB code while allowing us seasonsed posters to use it? I'd hate to lose it - it's how I get my jollies in PW. That could be really cool - people could earn their stripes on PW but gaining these privileges; conversely, abuse them and lose them.

That solves nothing. Zero. Besides, it's not possible unless Frank wants to learn to code. I can. Mark can. Others here can. Frank...

I like that idea, KathyK and Fellow Detractor Team member. Maybe there should be a techie or two on Frank's team for that very purpose?

Wish I'd thought of it . . .