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#833625 - 11/27/04 06:43 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Phlebas Offline


Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 4654
Loc: New York City
Larry as moderator of PF, pros and cons (sorry if this is too personal, Larry):

Pros:

- Knowledge and experience in the industry - including both the sales and technical side - that is far above most members here.

- Length of time spent on these forums - he's one of the earliest members, knows all the regular PF posters.

- Objectivity - from a piano industry standpoint. Example: Larry is not active as a dealer, rep, etc., so his opinions would be less inclined to be slanted toward certain brands.

- BS meter. Larry's is just about unsurpassed.

- Frank does not have the time to moderate these forums, and with the number of sock puppets, trolls, and sleazy individuals that show up here, it ma be necessary.


Cons:

- Larry would have to temper some of his hot-headedness. Effective moderators tend to be more hands off, less confrontational. Whether its' justified or not, I rarely see a heated argument in PF where Larry has not been involved.

- (Not sure if this is actually a con, but...) How wise is it to have someone with very outspoken known political views moderating a forum? Will newcomers be taken aback by what Larry posts in the Coffee Room knowing he is a moderator of one of the forums?

- It's true that Larry has a lot of knowledge of most aspects of the piano industry. However, that does not mean he's always right. He makes mistakes like the rest of us, but he's often not as quick to acknowlege them.

- There are people Larry has a known dislike towards, and - to be fair - lots who have a known dislike of Larry. How fair will his treatment of these people be in the PF?

- Having a moderator may or may not be necessary, but so far Frank hasn't come out to say it is.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#833626 - 11/27/04 06:53 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
I'm not hot headed. I'm blunt.

I have an idea. Let Jodi and Matt do what I'm suggesting. Because ALL I'm suggesting is someone else be able to remove obvious filth and harrassment. That's all.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833627 - 11/27/04 07:04 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
divadeb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 677
I have moderated forums on a commercial service for about ten years now. You are right, Larry, this place could use several pairs of eyes with admin capabilities to keep the board clean. It would be ideal to have a couple of people who either work goofy hours (are up all night), or live on the other side of the world, to catch trolls who do their work during, what for Frank would be, the wee hours.

Moderating forum boards is not about politics. It's about the protection of forum members and the businesses sponsoring the board. There are some legalities associated with really rank stuff popping up on boards with no "adult content" warnings. *Especially* since this board allows html and photo files to be posted real-time, without going through a screening process, somebody needs to be able to yank them quickly if they are bad. Links to and/or actual illegal content can be posted on this board. Internet law is still sketchy, but PW could end up fighting some battles that it shouldn't have to fight. Any staff should also be well versed in enforcing COPA regs.

There are software filters that can help with some of the stuff...but determined trolls will always find a way around that. I saw the posts you referred to. Bottom line...it could, and probably will, get a *lot* worse unless there are people watching. The more popular the board becomes, the more need there will be for it to be watched. One person can't do it.
_________________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

www.divadeb.com

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#833628 - 11/27/04 07:06 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
AKindWord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 300
Loc: Kentucky/Tennessee
Posted by Sarah_Blueparrot:

"And your opinion would be exactly the same should you happen to be perfectly unbiased and if you didn't have the slightest problem with Larry, would it?"[/b]

Do you see me asking to be moderator of this forum?

I have a life and these forums is not all I've got going in it.

Now, I can understand that Larry has a lot of advocates on this board and that he's king of his own little crap-heap here.

But, when a public forum becomes moderated by someone who is just as guilty of the "vulgarities" he claims he wishes to clean up and he actually succeeds in *getting* moderator privileges?

That is going to be a sad day for the forums.

-AKindWord
_________________________
I'm awake! I'm awake!

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#833629 - 11/27/04 07:11 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I have noticed more unkind words from you whoever you are today, mr. (or ms.) AKindWord .. I have noticed your negativity toward the larry above..many times.

A sad day for the forums when vulgarities aren't allowed.. I don't think so.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#833630 - 11/27/04 07:12 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
AKindWord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 300
Loc: Kentucky/Tennessee
Can you not read apple?


-AKindWord
_________________________
I'm awake! I'm awake!

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#833631 - 11/27/04 07:13 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
people know I do
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#833632 - 11/27/04 07:18 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
AKindWord Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/28/04
Posts: 300
Loc: Kentucky/Tennessee
Reread my post again apple. And show me where I said it would be a sad day if vulgarities were not allowed on the forum.

I said it would be a sad day if Larry was allowed control of the forum.

You might consider some adult literacy classes. And for future reference, it does help to actually read the subject matter of a reply before responding.

-AKindWord
_________________________
I'm awake! I'm awake!

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#833633 - 11/27/04 07:22 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
johnmoonlight Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/02
Posts: 2384
Loc: Lancaster, pa
Larry, there have also been some really vulgar postings in the wee morning hours that only a few of us have seen(I think Lucy has seen them).
Some troll who likes to tell us, in explicit detail, of his experiences on the toilet. Then he'll post about various sex toys and how to use them. Then he'll move on to various sexual acts and how to perform them appropriately.
So, my point is that there is more of this going on than some people here realize.
_________________________
While one who sings with his tongue on fire
Gargles in the rat race choir
Bent out of shape from society's pliers
Cares not to come up any higher
But rather get you down in the hole
That he's in.

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#833634 - 11/27/04 07:24 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Odd, you are accusing me of the very thing *you* are guilty of, AKW. I have *never* posted the kind of stuff we're talking about keeping off these forums. *Never*. One other thing - I've never been rude to anyone who hadn't done something to deserve it, such as you are guilty of. From your first post, you have been rude to almost everyone you've spoken to, just as you are doing now. The very reason you have a problem with me is because I stood up to your rudeness, and you didn't like it. Now you're back to the same rude attitude you displayed when you first got here. You've already been exposed as a fraud anyway, though, haven't you?

Since you have a life already, why don't you go live it and quit poking in our little "crap heap" as you call it? Because quite frankly, at 135 posts, with fully 100 of them being rude and antagonistic, you don't have much of a say one way or the other.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833635 - 11/27/04 07:27 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Ok, I think everyone is beginning to understand what I'm getting at.

If I could, I'd take these things down. I can't. If Jodi could, or if Matt could, or if Divadeb, or anyone else here could, they'd be gone. So would Nipon, and increasingly obvious, so would aKindWorld.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833636 - 11/27/04 07:30 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
go away... I keep track of who posts when... the clusters of negative posts by certain posters who likely are time buddies or the same person..
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#833637 - 11/27/04 07:31 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
What a bloody shame ... will everything good in this thread will be wiped ?... I guess the jerk will have felt a sense of satisfaction, eh?

I also agree with Johnny ... some inappropriate stuff goes on at night sometimes... it seems to go away though in the morning

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#833638 - 11/27/04 07:35 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Something has to be done to make it easier to get this kind of stuff down, or the forums are going to be ruined. If you'd like to know what I'd remove, here is an example. I'd obviously remove the troll posting the pictures, but I'd remove Nipon and aKindWorld. Both are obnoxious.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833639 - 11/27/04 07:36 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Dear LS sockpuppet,

Thank you for making Larry's point.

p.s. - don't forget to take your meds...
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#833640 - 11/27/04 07:46 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
The pictures went up at 10:22. If two or three of us had the ability to remove them, they'd have been down by 10:23, and Frank wouldn't have had to worry with it. That capability is the *only* thing I have suggested, regardless of who it is.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833641 - 11/27/04 07:48 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
divadeb Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/16/04
Posts: 677
I wouldn't expect anyone to want me to do that, I have only been around here a couple of months. I really can't do it here anyway, I am already watching 12 busy boards. I just know it needs to be done.

What nay-sayers really don't seem to realize is that what Larry is offering to do is a lot of crummy WORK...not some little parade of a power fantasy.
_________________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

www.divadeb.com

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#833642 - 11/27/04 07:52 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
What nay-sayers really don't seem to realize is that what Larry is offering to do is a lot of crummy WORK...not some little parade of a power fantasy.[/b]

Thank you, Divadeb. I think everyone gets that except those who have some sort of chip on their shoulder toward me. Oddly enough, their chip is there precisely because they've acted like jerks in the past, and I've stood up to them.

All I want is for there to be a way to get rid of this kind of stuff without having to bother Frank every time, or wait until he can get to it. I don't care *who* he chooses for the job.

I *do* find it interesting though that both times this troll has made his swing through the forums, AKindWorld and Nipon have both made their swings through at the exact same times. My gut feeling is that Nipon may be the guilty one, and aKindWorld just happened to pick the wrong time to come through and attack people.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833643 - 11/27/04 08:00 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Some people are only reading into this what they want to read. It's very clear what Larry and others are suggesting. Empower a few concierges to delete vulgar filth when it arises. It is not censorship but rather police action. Dr. Moonlight's suggestion of committee is very reasonable- a way to establish enforcement guidelines for the concierges. The concierges and committee are ultimately accountable to Frank.

If it would ease some sceptical minds here I would be willing to assist Larry.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#833644 - 11/27/04 08:04 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Whether or not you are the one posting the vulgar pictures is really beside the point, Nipon. You are a destructive poster on the forums, and you need to be kicked off. Your knowledge of pianos is pathetic, you have no class whatsoever, you don't know how to participate in a constructive manner, and all you do is harm. You have succeeded in turning the entire population of the forums against you. If you had any sense you'd simply leave. You don't however, so all we can do is hope you stay true to form. Eventually, Frank will notice the damage you do, and you'll be history.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833645 - 11/27/04 08:11 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Jerry Luke Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 969
Loc: Tillamook, Oregon
Isn't there a way for forum owners to identify the IP address of the offending poster? Perhaps that IP could be blocked, or it could be compared to the address of posters of known identity, to see if it posts are coming from the same PC.
_________________________
Support our troops!

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#833646 - 11/27/04 08:15 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
The posts have been removed.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833647 - 11/27/04 08:17 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5602
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
We record the IP of everyone who posts.
I can block the IP address, but if they keep coming back using different addresses I need a better way to eliminate them.

I'm looking into working with the authorities because this is considered a form of spam, not to mention harassment.
It is possible to trace a persons IP back through their ISP to find out who they are, but you have to have the right authority to request it.

I'd be happy to make an example of a couple of these morons.
_________________________
- Frank B.
Founder / Host
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-------------------------
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And please invite everyone you know to join our piano forums!
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#833648 - 11/27/04 08:17 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
larry, you first insisted you would only remove clearly objectionable filth from the forums. we all agree it would be good if that could be done efficiently. but now you make it clear you would also ban people if, in your opinion, they don't make a good contribution or don't agree with you or don't like you. akindword may not always be kind, but he/she is not a troll and has not, to my knowledge, posted filth.

basically, you are confirming the fears of those who think you are the wrong person to be moderator. i think phlebas has stated the case very thoughtfully and i agree.

and, i'd like to point out, that it may be that since frank has been layed off that he may very well have enough time to moderate and pay attention to what is going on here. in fact, i think it is quite possible that some major changes at PW may result.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#833649 - 11/27/04 08:20 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
frank, we cross-posted. glad to see you are here.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#833650 - 11/27/04 08:22 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Thank you Frank. I hope you realize that my only goal is to help if I can. I love the forums. I want to do whatever I can to help, as do the rest of us.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833651 - 11/27/04 08:27 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
but now you make it clear you would also ban people if, in your opinion, they don't make a good contribution or don't agree with you or don't like you. akindword may not always be kind, but he/she is not a troll and has not, to my knowledge, posted filth.[/b]

You don't know that aKindWorld isn't behind these things any more than I know he is. Yes, aKindWorld has been rude and trollish almost from the start. If you will notice, it wasn't me he attacked this time, but Apple. And if you will take the time to look it up, you'll find that he has treated several others the same way. The reason AKindWorld doesn't like me is because I called him on it.

Tell you what, Pique - why don't you take a poll. I think you'll be surprised at how many people see aKindWorld as a troll.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#833652 - 11/27/04 08:35 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Piano World Offline



Registered: 05/24/01
Posts: 5602
Loc: Parsonsfield, ME (orig. Nahant...
The Moderators Topic[/b]

We discussed this topic last year.
I have a list of names from people who volunteered to help.

The challenge is in striking the right balance.
Some posters are obviously idiots with too much time on their hands, and no life.

Culling them out would be a no-brainer.

It would be infinitely more difficult to moderate borderline posts.

Some people are just naturally argumentative or negative. They are probably like this in person too. That doesn't necessarily make them wrong, and as long as they aren't being nasty they are entitled to their opinions.

It gets even more difficult when the topic is technical. Even top professionals have different opinions about technique, brands, dealers, etc.

I do agree that "trolls" need to either smarten up or move on. It amazes me when someone who is obviously associated in some way with the piano business hides behind a screen name and makes derogatory posts.

You'll notice most of the professionals on our forums either use their real name or business name (as their handle, or in their signature).

They are smart enough to realize we have a huge audience of pianophiles and that contributing to the forums in a positive way is good for their reputations and their business (and it's good for us).
And, they are up front enough to be willing to take their lumps when people disagree with them.

So...
We are really talking about two different issues here. Throwing out the trash when it shows up in our forums, and policing posts that might be misleading or contain bad information.

I can deputize a few people to help with the former, that's easy. The latter is more difficult and requires more thought.

Let's keep talking, every problem has a solution.

Regards,

- Frank B.
_________________________
- Frank B.
Founder / Host
www.PianoWorld.com
www.PianoSupplies.com
Find Us On:
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-------------------------
It's Fun To Play the Piano ... PLEASE Pass It On!
And please invite everyone you know to join our piano forums!
Coming to Maine? We're in Parsonsfield (southwest) let's get together!


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#833653 - 11/27/04 08:38 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
larry,
akindword is not behaving like a troll in this thread. i have seen many of his/her posts, and none of them were trollish. she makes the quite reasonable statement that you are unable to moderate yourself. that is what i consider to be a perfectly true statement, for good or ill, and it was apple who attacked her for making it, by putting words in her mouth.

i see akindword's posts as being reasonable even if you don't agree with them. you not agreeing is not cause for her being banned from the forums. and if that is your criteria, then i think you are not the right person to have the power of a moderator, editor, or whatever you want to call it.

we know you, like most of us, consider this your online home, and i, for one, appreciate the offer you are making to do a lot of work. however, i agree also that if there are to be such persons, they need to be less controversial figures than you are, and they need to at the very least be perceived as not being biased or forging their own agenda here.

so, sincere thanks for your offer, larry, and for the spirit in which you made it. i don't know what the solution is. i hope frank will find one that works best for him.
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#833654 - 11/27/04 08:39 AM Re: Ok - I volunteer to be a trash hauler in the PF - second wind..
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Frank, do you want us to continue discussing who we think would make good moderators, would you like to receive comments in some other way, or would you like us to just drop it?

Commenting on this publicly is kind of awkward, but I'll do it if I have to.
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