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#835442 - 04/20/05 10:24 AM Reviews of the three other forums
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
(1) jgoo's. Has the most people at present. Easy link (www.coffee-room.com). Seems to have technical problems, but these should be resolved. Long-term weakness: no obvious way to drive future new traffic beyond current members from PW.

(2) Cindy's. Nice interface. Easier to follow posts and threads than jgoo site. Weakness: same as jgoo's site. Also has fewer PW posters at present.

(3) Larry's. Best interface. Because it has a piano focus like PW, it has a potential reason to generate new traffic. It remains to be seen if it will do so. Weakness: many current PW members have issues with the founder of the site. Except for continuing a CR forum, I am not sure what it adds to PW in the total piano-internet-chat room space.

These are my opinions only. The founders of the site should take them as feedback to help improve, not as criticism of three really good tries on short notice.

I really wish PW had stayed as it was. Many meetings and friendships and parties grew out of this site, and without the CR I wonder if that will happen to the same extent.

Best wishes to all and especially Frank. - Jeffrey

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Piano & Music Accessories
#835443 - 04/20/05 10:30 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
NAK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 2561
Loc: Canada

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#835444 - 04/20/05 11:09 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I actually like jgoo's site architecture the best. It's most intuitive for a "power user" or someone who wants to move quickly.

Allows you to "fast forward" to new posts since your last posting on a thread, interface is skinnable (very cool).
But has the drawbacks you've mentioned.

Cindy's site looks nice, but isn't very intuitive in terms of design/layout.
Lacking features you might expect, and is way too female oriented (come on... "eve"??... and purple everywhere??) \:D

Larry's site has made huge progress in the last 24 hours, but is lacking people and ease of use.

Jgoo's still wins, but only as a short term solution.

Unfortunately everyone rushed out to start their own rather than discuss as a group (as if they were waiting to do so).

Some of us more tech oriented could help a lot to build a proper site with it's own domain. Everyone working together, with a desire to build something more long lasting could really create a "home" for everyone I think.
But as it stands we have 3 sites that have been thrown together quickly, with only one really suitable as a replacement right off the bat (jgoo's)

Just my humble opinion of course, and subject to change hourly as the 3 new forums do.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#835445 - 04/20/05 11:10 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i hope you'll help us Caviar
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#835446 - 04/20/05 11:15 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
fizzygirl Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 614
Loc: Minnesnowta
I didn't even know cindy had a site. I never saw a posting in regard to it. I like jgoos site as it moves quickly and it seems very simple to use. I have not been to Larry's as I just don't have that much time to devote to more than 1 site. But I will follow the crowd. I'd hate to lose contact with all the great friends I have made here in PW.

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#835447 - 04/20/05 11:15 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I've offered to... I'd like to.

Perhaps I'm not as helpful as I think, as nobody has yet asked me to! \:\)

I reposted my review in the appropriate place btw.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#835448 - 04/20/05 11:27 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
KB, can we get back onto jgoo's or is it down for good? I can't find it.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#835449 - 04/20/05 11:32 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
been reading their support forum... server's still down as far as I know.
It's a global thing for them, it's not just jgoo's forum.

These things happen, especially with free hosting (one of the things you pay for when you buy hosting is server redundancy so that this exact thing doesn't happen).
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#835450 - 04/20/05 02:07 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
My thoughts. Repost:

OK, all you business and technical geniuses. Let's build us a web site. We'll start with one of these guys and lets figure out how to make it attractive to new posters but also turn a profit.

I've started businesses before (though never anything web based.) It's not that hard. We can see if we can generate some ad revenues, maybe even sell some stuff.

Let's be creative with this.

I don't want to compete with Frank. I think something different is in order.

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#835451 - 04/20/05 02:23 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
*shudders*

I agree with TomK. There is really no reason for another *piano* site between PW and some other long-standing piano forums we all know about. jgoo's site is easy to use and has passed the "vote with your feet" test - many more people went to his site than the others. The key issue is sustainability with new members and possibly some cash flow. Key questions: why was the CR in PW successful? How do we drive new traffic to the site, while keeping membership standards fairly high and interesting?

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#835452 - 04/20/05 02:30 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I'll definitely do all my piano discussing here.. I do have one and do play.

certainly find Jgoo's to be user friendly and such.. and for once, I agree with Tomk
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#835453 - 04/20/05 02:33 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Tom, let's figure it out.
Seriously, I'd like to help out with something like that in whatever limited capacity I can.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#835454 - 04/20/05 02:35 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
 Quote:
The key issue is sustainability with new members and possibly some cash flow. Key questions: why was the CR in PW successful? How do we drive new traffic to the site, while making membership standards fairly high and interesting?
Easily your best post to date, Jeffrey. I agree that the best -- maybe the only -- way to drive new traffic to the site, while making membership standards fairly high and interesting, is to bribe them.
_________________________
(watch this space)

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#835455 - 04/20/05 02:39 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
and for once, I agree with Tomk [/b]
apple,

his is the second time you agreed with me...you also agreed that I was the hottest guy on the internet. \:\)

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#835456 - 04/20/05 02:44 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
How do we drive new traffic to the site, while keeping membership standards fairly high and interesting?[/b]

We could sell atom splitting equipment or brain surgery tools (on second thought, those people are boooooring).
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#835457 - 04/20/05 02:46 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
plays88skeys Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/08/04
Posts: 3091
Loc: Richmond, VA
promote it as a place to discuss current events

promote it as a place for music lovers (not just pianists)
_________________________
There are no shortcuts to any place worth going. - Beverly Sills

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#835458 - 04/20/05 02:53 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
ycul Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/23/04
Posts: 1402
Loc: U.K.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
How do we drive new traffic to the site, while keeping membership standards fairly high and interesting? [/b]
If we build it they will come........ ;\)
_________________________
How now, brown cow.

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#835459 - 04/20/05 03:05 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
katie_dup1 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/27/03
Posts: 1838
Loc: Canada
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jeffrey:
Key questions: why was the CR in PW successful? How do we drive new traffic to the site, while keeping membership standards fairly high and interesting? [/b]
Really Good Questions !! I *shudder* to suggest this ... but would a *survey* be in order?

I liked this website b/c after I bought my piano, I then tuned into the PF as I was keen on practice/learning. Then I tuned into the CR to talk with people who simply loved pianos & piano music. Then I discovered I shared other interests with these people. So I think the answers have something to do with Piano People> Piano Music>Music>Other Interests.

\:\)

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#835460 - 04/20/05 03:49 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
Cindysphinx Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6416
Loc: Washington D.C. Metro
Fizzygirl,

Some of us are at

www.welltemperedforum.com

Fair reviews, Jeffrey.
_________________________
Vote For Cindy!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...QvjrL_blog.html

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#835461 - 04/20/05 04:34 PM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
Jack Frost Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 4454
Loc: Maine
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
How do we drive new traffic to the site, while keeping membership standards fairly high and interesting?[/b]

We could sell atom splitting equipment or brain surgery tools (on second thought, those people are boooooring). [/b]
Spam everyone with Tom's photo. No women will be able to resist and there will be so many that the rest of us will have some leftovers.

jf
_________________________
"Make the pie higher." GWB

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#835462 - 04/21/05 01:25 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Weakness: many current PW members have issues with the founder of the site. [/b]

And that's sad. For years I put all I had into this place, trying to help people, putting my experience to work to help keep down the spin and misinformation, stomping the toes of trolls who were bothering people, drawing their fire away from others onto me. I have tried to be a friend, I've tried to entertain, I've shared my ups and downs, and your ups and downs. I've cried when you lost someone, I've swelled with pride when you've found someone, I've cussed you, I've hugged you, I've argued with you, and I've supported you.

Over time, when one takes on the kinds of tasks I took on around here, you accumulate war wounds. But I always thought most people understood that. I guess not. After all I have been here, good and bad, I find it said that many have issues with me.

I am sorry you all feel that way.

I truly don't understand why the people who have issues with me don't seem to have issues with those who were nasty toward me. Maybe it's because I'm an Indian. Maybe it's because I'm a conservative. Maybe it's because I'm so damned good looking.......

Or maybe it's something else.

All I know is this - I would have gone to the wall for any one of you. I care about you all. I guess it's not ok for me to stand up for myself. I guess a few others get to skate by on a different standard.

Oh well. As they say, I'll know who my friends are soon enough.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#835463 - 04/21/05 03:40 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
Larry,

Most of the 'current PW members' who have an issue with you are pretty doggone new to this place.. not everyone feels this way, I assure you.

I'll take real and substantive over affable any day.
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

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#835464 - 04/21/05 04:10 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
Larry,

You seem genuinely hurt, so let me offer what I hope will be a neutral, non-insulting explanation.

There's a point at which the texture of the response overwhelms the content. I've certainly been guilty of nastiness too, and I have recently apologized (more than once) for abusing Frank's hospitality. However, it's clear to me that some people, even people I agree with on substance, aren't making it to the substance of what I am saying because they can't cut through the vitriol.

The same, it is fair to say, probably applies to you.

I think it's also fair to say that the best moderators are those who post infrequently, and who don't get caught up in the substance of heated debates. If those are reasonable qualifications, I certainly don't fit the bill. Neither, I would suggest, do you.

I also prefer an "open" forum, where anyone of any viewpoint is free to participate. For better or worse, at various times, even in the last few days, you've suggested that you'd ban certain posters. (Your comment to yhabpo that his posting days would soon be over comes to mind.) I certainly don't agree with everything that yhabpo says, and some of it I disagree with violently and even find repugnant, but I find his viewpoint interesting and worth reading. I don't want to participate in a forum where someone like yhabpo, even if he is only posting to provoke a response, isn't able to participate.

In any event, it's unlikely that I'd survive in your forum for long. People who call the moderator names have an unfortunate tendency, in all forums, to disappear into the internet equivalent of a New Jersey swamp.

In my opinion, humble or not, it's perfectly all right for you to stand up for yourself. There is a difference, though, between standing up for yourself on the one hand, and going on the offensive on the other. You and I have both blurred the line between those two.

For all those reasons, I think we're all better off in a forum that you aren't empowered to moderate.

I hope you don't take that as insulting, because many of the things I have said about you could apply with equal force to me. I do respect your knowledge of all things piano, and it's always useful to hear different viewpoints. Nevertheless, you seemed to be wondering why people might have issues with you as a moderator, and I hope this is a satisfactory explanation.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#835465 - 04/21/05 04:38 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
mikhailoh Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 4288
Loc: Cincinnati
On the contrary, Quirt, I think we'd all be MUCH better off on a forum Larry could moderate.

Bearing in mimd that the vast majority of my time here is spent in the Piano Forum, what I've seen Larry get ticked off at is not so much people who disagree with him as those who are simply argumentative. Style over substance. Trolls.. people who seek only to cause trouble or promote their own agenda without contributing anything of value.

A forum devoid of these types sounds like BB nirvana to me.
_________________________
Michael

====

He is so solemn, detached and uninvolved he makes Mr. Spock look like Hunter S. Thompson at closing time.'

Top
#835466 - 04/21/05 04:47 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
QuirtEvans Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 978
Loc: U.S.A.
You and I obviously have different perspectives, perhaps because most of your time is spent in the Piano Forum, while most of mine was spent in the Coffee Room. And my comments were not directed towards Larry's contributions to the Piano Forum.

But, if you think that a forum moderated by Larry would be BB nirvana, you are in luck, because such a forum now exists. Time will tell where the majority of Coffee Room participants will migrate.
_________________________
If you use lines like "a hyena with hiccups", you might be a redneck.

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#835467 - 04/21/05 06:19 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
I don't know what there will be to talk about if there is no argument... the new forums remind me of the Oprah Show, Jerry Springer and one of those reality shows... where a camera just watches members... never really watch tv, but I used to when I was lactating.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#835468 - 04/21/05 06:27 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Larry: I believe my comment was factually accurate. I was not editorializing, or saying whether this is good or bad. I was stating what the strengths and weaknesses of the different sites were. The weaknesses of you site are (1) no obvious distinguishing mark from PW itself, with a lower starting critical mass and (2) feelings (valid or not, I am talking results, not morality) about you. The strength is that you have a reason to generate new blood, which the other two lack, at least at present.

As an idea the other sites could co-operatively link to other piano or music playing sites (violins, drums, etc.) to get more members of the right type.

I have thoughts about how to monetize such a site (it is quite difficult), but I will leave that to others. There is clearly a demand for the type of site that the CR was.

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#835469 - 04/21/05 07:52 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
Is there time to let the marketplace determine which site will win out? I suspect it will happen pretty quickly, determined in part by which has the best head start but also by "accessibility" (access reliability).

Once the base consolidates, then might be the time to address site marketing and funding.

Just some thoughts.
_________________________
(watch this space)

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#835470 - 04/21/05 07:55 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
It will be hard to survive..

One thing that drew in so many diverse personalities was the tension and the hot topics. That's what made this place special..too bad it killed it too.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#835471 - 04/21/05 07:56 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3216
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by MusicMagellan:
Is there time to let the marketplace determine which site will win out? I suspect it will happen pretty quickly, determined in part by which has the best head start but also by "accessibility" (access reliability).

Once the base consolidates, then might be the time to address site marketing and funding.

Just some thoughts. [/b]
Same thoughts I expressed in one of the other rooms, lord knows which one.

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#835472 - 04/21/05 07:58 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3216
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
... never really watch tv, but I used to when I was lactating. [/b]


That's a line I didn't expect to encounter. \:D

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#835473 - 04/21/05 07:59 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
MusicMagellan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1157
Loc: NY
I'd say that's enough of a consensus then.
_________________________
(watch this space)

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#835474 - 04/21/05 08:01 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
just a few last giggles....

I'm an energizer bunny,,, when I sit and watch tv, I usually fall asleep. Shoot I'll fall asleep at concerts (as I'm sure Brendan noticed).
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#835475 - 04/21/05 08:10 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3216
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple*:
...Shoot I'll fall asleep at concerts ... [/b]
I've done the same. Slept through the entire one-time-only Eric Burdon and The Animals reunion concert in Austin some years back. Front row center. Band played louder and louder trying to wake me up. Woke up when the roadies were clearing the last of the equipment. But I wasn't lactating. :p

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#835476 - 04/21/05 08:43 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
 Quote:
Originally posted by ChickGrand:
Same thoughts I expressed in one of the other rooms, lord knows which one. [/b]
Eeee Gads. Ain't that the truth. \:D Here's jodi - click, click, click and blast, I KNOW I posted about that somewhere, but which room? I can't find it! click, click, click




\:D Jodi

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#835477 - 04/21/05 08:47 AM Re: Reviews of the three other forums
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3216
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by jodi:
quote:
Originally posted by ChickGrand:
Same thoughts I expressed in one of the other rooms, lord knows which one. [/b]
Eeee Gads. Ain't that the truth. \:D Here's jodi - click, click, click

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