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#848844 - 04/05/05 01:15 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:
yeah, that article was so in depth with such profound logic as:
"God doesn't exist because I prayed and it didn't happen".

[/b]
Not that I defend such logic on the author's part, but we have many many times seen on this forum: "God does exist because I prayed and it DID happen." and "Proof of God is all around you. Who do you think made these beautiful flowers?"

I believe you yourself, KlavierBauer, once got in my face saying you "know" God exists (even tho you cant prove it) because of your personal experiences. How is that different?
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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Piano & Music Accessories
#848845 - 04/05/05 02:24 PM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
well, it's very different.

My burden of proof has been met, and as I said last time you brought this up, I'm sorry I wasn't able to bottle it up or take a picture to prove to you as well. I still genuinely feel that if you seek proof, you will find it. Physical proof, not metaphor thereof.

I have never used my feelings about whether God did or did not do what I wanted to justify His existence.... so don't throw that in my face.

My comments aren't specific to my beliefs, but a critique of the writing as a whole, which you agreed with.

I would critique anyone who used the same sort of poo-poo logic to prove the existence of God.
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Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#848846 - 04/05/05 02:38 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
No, its impossible to prove. I wont find proof regardless of how much I seek. But I dont want another rehash of what "prove" and "know" means. Clearly, we're using different dictionaries.

And I didnt throw anything of the sort in your face. I said you used your personal (subjective) experiences as proof of his existence. You must have read wrong.

And I didnt agree with anything you said. You must have read wrong.

Actually, I never saw you critique those who used this poo poo logic to prove the existence of God. There have been many opportunities. Maybe I missed those posts. I dont read them all.

Edit: and please DO present the physical proof of God you speak of. I would be eternally grateful. As would all of humankind. If its proof and its physical...lets have it!
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#848847 - 04/05/05 02:43 PM Re: Let Us Pray
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
Atheist, ycul. Atheism is the only universal belief.

Remember people: liking me is irrelevant. Believing me is important.

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#848848 - 04/05/05 02:50 PM Re: Let Us Pray
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I agree. However, I am hard pressed to do either one.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#848849 - 04/05/05 02:54 PM Re: Let Us Pray
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
Atheism is the only universal belief.

[/b]
It's a disbelief - Atheism is a disbelief... Just like Agonism

According to Bernard's t- shirt... If you don't think then you are not.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#848850 - 04/05/05 03:48 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
apple: "It's a disbelief - Atheism is a disbelief..."

Well, not really. There are so many "spiritual" viewpoints to not believe - Zoroastrianism, belief in wood sprites, fairies and goblins, Mormonism, Catholicism, Judaism, a few hundred types of Protestantism, Hinduism, Islam, Raelianism, reincarnation, Tibetan Buddhism, various shamanistic or animistic beliefs in Latin America and Africa, voodoo, etc.

If you believe in one of them, you disbelieve in all the rest. Remember, you are someone else's unbeliever, whatever you believe.

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#848851 - 04/05/05 03:52 PM Re: Let Us Pray
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
 Quote:
Raelianism
Does that have something to do with a Lamb in NYC? ;\)
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Visit us at:
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#848852 - 04/05/05 03:55 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Another thought: yby's article was not argued in any theoretical depth, but it did touch on good points about the confusions of petitionary prayer and the problem of evil. While one-sided, it was no more so that the recent silly story in PW of the young man who got cancer and "found God", which everyone gushed over, despite it's being one-sided and deeply patronizing to the atheistic viewpoint. yby's article is no worse than the cancer story, probably better. Admittedly, both fall short of rigorous argumentation.

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#848853 - 04/05/05 03:58 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by yhabpo:
Remember people: liking me is irrelevant. Believing me is important. [/b]
You're either the reincarnation of Moses or a two bit soapbox demagogue. I'll go with the latter.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#848854 - 04/05/05 04:03 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
Here's something. I believe in God--he's been good to me. Really, I don't know much about business. I never have and never will. You look at my answers in the "hay you financial geniuses" threads--and mine come across as pretty dufus. I really don't know business.

But, I bet you can roll all the financial geniuses together and I can easily buy and sell them.

I never was much good with girls, No girlfriends in HS, one in college. Then my wife--babe of all time, Yale, Columbia, georgous, and all that. Did pantyhose ads for Hanes stockings. Good Catholic to boot.

The kids--not the time to get into it, but gifts. Two gifts.

All I can say is that as good as I think I am (and I know I think I'm good,)--it ain't me. I'm not that good.

God has blessed me. And I'm thankful.

There is a God.
And why--I don't know. But, I know I'm not that good and he's blessed me.

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#848855 - 04/05/05 04:26 PM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
 Quote:
I said you used your personal (subjective) experiences as proof of his existence. You must have read wrong.
Sidd, by your logic any personal experience is totally subjective and therebye dismissed?
What about the personal experiences of Newton, Descart, Leibniz?
You have no basis to comment on my personal experiences and their validity in anything including religion.
I have not dismissed your beliefs, rather I have commented that I think you would find if you only looked. I am not however telling you that your personal experiences are false.

 Quote:
And I didnt agree with anything you said. You must have read wrong.
...
...

 Quote:
Not that I defend such logic on the author's part
Why did you bring "such logic" up if it is not there? Or is it there, and you were agreeing with me and my observation of it??

I just want to know how you can tell me that my proof isn't "proof" in your book, and that we must have different definitions of the words we're using.
Are you saying it's impossible that God came down and sat with me yesterday and told me the secrets of the Universe?
If this isn't impossible, and might have occurred, would that not count as proof for me, even though you didn't witness it?

I told you last time you asked to see my proof that I hadn't bottled it up for you. I have not mentioned having proof as some way of getting you to join me. I have clearly stated that you must find your own, and I feel you will if you look for it. You have already decided (not very scientifically I might add) that such proof can't possibly exist, and is therefore not worth searching for in any way.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#848856 - 04/05/05 04:48 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I have searched for proof. Very extensively. Why would you assume otherwise. Because my findings differ from yours? heh.

Proof is something that demonstrates truth for one and all. As I understand it. Again, we seem to have different definitions.

Yes, if god came down and sat with you and spilled the secrets, that would be proof for you that could not be demonstrated for me. But, I dont believe that has occured. First, there is a huge difference between such a thing happening, and you believing such a thing is happening. Millions of children believe in Santa Claus because he came down, sat with them, and shared secrets. They believed that occured because they experienced it and thus had proof. It did not occur, however. What they were experiencing (seemingly) is not at all what was happening. We humans are funny that way.

Human experience is indeed subjective. But dont put words in my mouth. That doesnt mean we cant agree on things like math and science systems and methodologies as an effort to objectify the universe so we can interact with it productively. There is still subjectivity involved in those systems, but the manner in which the subjectivity varies from person to person does not (often) change the results of the system. sometimes it does, however.

Also, (this is pure opinion on my part, and I present it as nothing more), if god came down and sat with you and shared secrets, i believe you would be elevated to such a state of joy and enlightenment that transcends this world that I dont believe you would be prone to tedious, unpleasant arguments defending your beliefs on a web board. Just my opinion.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#848857 - 04/05/05 05:20 PM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
my arguments are tedious and unpleasant? ouch... I guess I'll shut up then. I thought we enjoyed discussing with each other.

 Quote:
Why would you assume otherwise. Because my findings differ from yours?
No, because you said this:
 Quote:
No, its impossible to prove. I wont find proof regardless of how much I seek.
As for dictionaries, I think we're reading the same ones, and I think we have the same definitions of "proof" and "know". But clearly we don't agree (read: you don't agree with me) about how I understand those two words.

 Quote:
But dont put words in my mouth. That doesnt mean we cant agree on things like math and science systems and methodologies as an effort to objectify the universe so we can interact with it productively. There is still subjectivity involved in those systems, but the manner in which the subjectivity varies from person to person does not (often) change the results of the system. sometimes it does, however.
I apologize if it appears I have put words in your mouth. I agree with the above statement, and don't wish to contradict it. I guess I thought you were saying that because my experience was only personal and not public, it was not really valid.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#848858 - 04/05/05 05:41 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Tedious yes (we have often disintegrated into arguing semantics); unpleasant, I meant for you, you seem to be upset and at times caustic in these dialogues. I'm not judging, I have those experiences as well.

Through my searches, I've come to believe that looking for proof in this context is futile. Actually, I've come to the conclusion that the question is irrelevant, but thats harder to explain, and much more abstract.

As for public vs private experience, I actually find private experience to be the most valid, and actually spiritual experiences have a necessarily private aspect to them. I too have experienced spiritual ecstacy, both in the context of an organized religious system, and without that context. What metaphors I choose to characterize those experiences are a very private matter, and I dont presume that they are appropriate for anyone else but me. It just so happens that the Roman Catholic context and metaphors have many subscribers, so my experiences there were easy to quantize to that mindset, and share with people. As I had experiences outside of that context, I lost the need to impose such imagery onto my experiences. So I'm not prone toward accepting others project them onto my experiences.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#848859 - 04/05/05 07:47 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Sweep88 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/27/05
Posts: 190
Loc: Ohio
yhapbo....WHY are you ignoring my posts?? Did the word of God stab you so deep you dont know how to respond? He loves you and is ALWAYS reaching out to you no matter what you say. That is until of course you pass to the other side.... Wow...I wouldnt want to be you....
_________________________
I try to live, love and laugh as much as I can every day, because every day may be my last

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#848860 - 04/05/05 08:09 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Sweep: "I wouldnt want to be you...."

If I may be allowed to speak for yby, I am sure the feeling is mutual.

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#848861 - 04/05/05 08:30 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Jeffrey, what is it about God that you fear so much you devote most of your waking thoughts to disproving him?
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#848862 - 04/05/05 08:35 PM Re: Let Us Pray
markjpcs Offline


Registered: 08/31/04
Posts: 3170
Loc: Wisconsin
I thought believers were supposed to fear God.

Hmmm, was I taught wrong yet again?
_________________________
Visit us at:
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#848863 - 04/05/05 08:52 PM Re: Let Us Pray
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
DT 6:5, MT 22:37, MK 12:30, LK 10:27 Love God.
DT 6:13, PS 33:8, 34:9, 111:10, 115:13, 128:1, 147:11, PR 8:13, 16:6, 19:23, 22:4, IS 8:13, LK 12:5, 1PE 2:17 Fear God.
1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love.

I can understand how people can get confused about that issue.


...
Sorry to sound condescending, Sweep88, but you write as if you read too many Chick Tracts as a child.

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#848864 - 04/05/05 08:57 PM Re: Let Us Pray
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom--K:
Here's something. I believe in God--he's been good to me. Really, I don't know much about business. I never have and never will. You look at my answers in the "hay you financial geniuses" threads--and mine come across as pretty dufus. I really don't know business.

But, I bet you can roll all the financial geniuses together and I can easily buy and sell them.

I never was much good with girls, No girlfriends in HS, one in college. Then my wife--babe of all time, Yale, Columbia, georgous, and all that. Did pantyhose ads for Hanes stockings. Good Catholic to boot.

The kids--not the time to get into it, but gifts. Two gifts.

All I can say is that as good as I think I am (and I know I think I'm good,)--it ain't me. I'm not that good.

God has blessed me. And I'm thankful.

There is a God.
And why--I don't know. But, I know I'm not that good and he's blessed me. [/b]
Tom, you magnificent bastard, you have said it all. Unfortunately, most here will never figure it out because they take themselves far too seriously.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#848865 - 04/05/05 08:58 PM Re: Let Us Pray
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#848866 - 04/05/05 09:04 PM Re: Let Us Pray
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489

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#848867 - 04/05/05 09:13 PM Re: Let Us Pray
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
I search in vain for any ray of light emanating from your posts, yabpho. I see derision and sneering condescension but nothing positive or even enlightening in any way. Is this your proposed alternative to those who think it is really f***ing great to be alive (with apologies to Frank Zappa and the Necessities)? Sounds like a tough sell to me. I would be inclined to let you wither in the darkness as you seem to have chosen. I am, of course, speaking as someone who does not profess to be part of any organized religion but does not see the fact that people derive hope and meaning from such as a bad thing. Quite the contrary, actually.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#848868 - 04/05/05 09:18 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom--K:
Here's something. I believe in God--he's been good to me. Really, I don't know much about business. I never have and never will. You look at my answers in the "hay you financial geniuses" threads--and mine come across as pretty dufus. I really don't know business.

But, I bet you can roll all the financial geniuses together and I can easily buy and sell them.

I never was much good with girls, No girlfriends in HS, one in college. Then my wife--babe of all time, Yale, Columbia, georgous, and all that. Did pantyhose ads for Hanes stockings. Good Catholic to boot.

The kids--not the time to get into it, but gifts. Two gifts.

All I can say is that as good as I think I am (and I know I think I'm good,)--it ain't me. I'm not that good.

God has blessed me. And I'm thankful.

There is a God.
And why--I don't know. But, I know I'm not that good and he's blessed me. [/b]
Is this different from "There is a God, because I prayed and it DID happen"? If not, I believe Mr. KlavierBauer had some things he wanted to say about that logic.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#848869 - 04/05/05 09:24 PM Re: Let Us Pray
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Thank you for proving my point. \:\)
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#848870 - 04/05/05 09:27 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Thank you for proving my point. \:\) [/b]
How pedestrian. :rolleyes:
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#848871 - 04/05/05 09:32 PM Re: Let Us Pray
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
I search in vain for any ray of light emanating from your posts, yabpho. I see derision and sneering condescension but nothing positive or even enlightening in any way. Is this your proposed alternative to those who think it is really f***ing great to be alive (with apologies to Frank Zappa and the Necessities)? Sounds like a tough sell to me. I would be inclined to let you wither in the darkness as you seem to have chosen. I am, of course, speaking as someone who does not profess to be part of any organized religion but does not see the fact that people derive hope and meaning from such as a bad thing. Quite the contrary, actually. [/b]
The latest bout of "derision and sneering condescension" came as a result of the disgusting behaviour of the religious groups over the Schiavo fiasco. Hitler enjoyed his reign, JBryan. Was it wrong for people to halt him?

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#848872 - 04/06/05 04:00 AM Re: Let Us Pray
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Ah, the Hitler punt. How lame. And how well your response proves my point.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#848873 - 04/06/05 04:19 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
TK: "All I can say is that as good as I think I am (and I know I think I'm good,)--it ain't me. I'm not that good."

I think it has to do with your high ability to psychologically analyze people on the spot. It is what makes for a good salesperson. A bit like the guy in The Iceman Cometh ... \:\)

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