Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
154 registered (allakart, accordeur, 36251, ajames, 40 invisible), 1747 Guests and 29 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#848874 - 04/06/05 11:06 PM Re: Let Us Pray
bruceee Offline
Full Member

Registered: 02/04/05
Posts: 317
Loc: Wellington, New Zealand
Interesting post, Yhabpo.

Suppose a million people prayed for Terri and another million for the Pope. Probably conservative guesses. If we suppose that one person praying for another has at least a small effect on the outcome, then a million people praying for the same thing should have a rather larger effect. Instead, what did we find:

Terri died in a manner which is typical of other PVS cases. If God had wanted or been able to work a miracle, here was a golden opportunity -- and while the world was watching. Could have made believers out of a lot of people, me included.

The Pope's death seems to be typical of an 84-year old in failing health. Not a pleasant death, but again typical. Could not God have at least called for his faithful servant while he (the Pope) was asleep? It seems very little to ask -- and many people would have been praying for a lot more than that.

In these two cases, it seems that all those prayers went unanswered. There are some possible reasons for this: God does not exist, God does not care, God does not interfere. But whatever the reason, I have to conclude that the power of prayer is indeed a fiction. Nature took its course, just as it does when there is no praying.

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#848875 - 04/07/05 08:44 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
*rolls eyes*

More of this "God can't possibly exist because when given the opportunity to do something, my narrow perception[/b] is that he did nothing.


Sidd,
no Tom's post is not displaying that kind of logic. Why don't you read the whole thread and put his post into context?
I don't think Tom says anywhere: "God MUST exist, because I prayed and my wishes came true!" I know from years of discussion with Tom that he has a much better understanding of things than that.
your post worked though.... you effected a response from me.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848876 - 04/07/05 08:47 AM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
I've seen supposed studies that claim to have shown the effectiveness of prayer. Needless to say, the methodology was severely questionable. But I'm not necessarily one to claim prayer does nothing. Prayer is a form of meditation, which is shown to have measurable effects on the practitioner. Whether there is a connectedness between people that can also be effected by similar mental focus, I dont know, but sounds plausible to me.

The part about religious prayer that confuses me (at least the petition variety) is it suggests god is indecisive. As if he were on the fence about "his plan" but, hark, there's a multitude of lowly humans pleading for something. "Oh all right, you caught me in a good mood. I'll grant it. maybe I was a bit hasty with my plan."....?!?! It just doesnt make sense that that "god" would entertain suggestions from mankind. It totally invalidates his omniscience and omnipotence.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

Top
#848877 - 04/07/05 08:50 AM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:
*rolls eyes*

More of this "God can't possibly exist because when given the opportunity to do something, my narrow perception[/b] is that he did nothing.


Sidd,
no Tom's post is not displaying that kind of logic. Why don't you read the whole thread and put his post into context?
I don't think Tom says anywhere: "God MUST exist, because I prayed and my wishes came true!" I know from years of discussion with Tom that he has a much better understanding of things than that.
your post worked though.... you effected a response from me. [/b]
Then educate me on how to interpret Tom's post. His post said "There is a God" presented as the conclusion to a list of blessings in his life that he cant attribute to any other source. help me out. seems pretty straight forward to me.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

Top
#848878 - 04/07/05 09:12 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Everything seems straight forward to you because choose it to be so.

I DID educate you as to why your synopsis of Tom's post was false. I'm sorry you haven't been here that long, and maybe don't know more about what makes Tom who he is, but I have been, and do know.

Tom's understanding of God, or what he thinks is God goes a lot deeper than "I asked and it happened, therefore he exists".
Tom mentions being blessed a lot, which is much different than petitioning and asking God to do you favors. That in itself demonstrates a completely different understanding of things than the sort of thing I said I would comment on.
Tom understand what it means to be blessed, and happy, and because of those things, and a whole host of other reasons Tom understands that there is someone looking over him. This is totally different than Tom coming to the conclusion that someone's looking over him, because he asked not to be eaten by tigers today... and wasn't.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848879 - 04/07/05 09:23 AM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:
Everything seems straight forward to you because choose it to be so.[/b]
Now this is just silly. What do you know about how EVERYTHING seems to me? Actually, my thoughts on these subjects are very complex and abstract. Such assessments by you of this sort is just parading foolishness.

 Quote:

I DID educate you as to why your synopsis of Tom's post was false. I'm sorry you haven't been here that long, and maybe don't know more about what makes Tom who he is, but I have been, and do know.

Tom's understanding of God, or what he thinks is God goes a lot deeper than "I asked and it happened, therefore he exists".
Tom mentions being blessed a lot, which is much different than petitioning and asking God to do you favors. That in itself demonstrates a completely different understanding of things than the sort of thing I said I would comment on.
Tom understand what it means to be blessed, and happy, and because of those things, and a whole host of other reasons Tom understands that there is someone looking over him. This is totally different than Tom coming to the conclusion that someone's looking over him, because he asked not to be eaten by tigers today... and wasn't. [/b]
Well, the only difference between his post and "I asked and it happened, therefore he exists" is that he doesnt mention having asked for these specific blessings, although he often mentions praying for things. So if that little technicality is what changes the whole fundamental nature of it for you, I guess we've come to the tedious part again.

As for not reading Tom's posts for years like you have, I'm sorry, my bad. Obviously you know him better, thats fine. How arrogant of me to respond to the content of a current post rather than track the man longitudinally before offering any remarks. I hang my head in shame. :rolleyes:
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

Top
#848880 - 04/07/05 09:35 AM Re: Let Us Pray
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
I can't imagine life without God. God has been so good to me. I've experienced my share of tragedy and may have to experience more some day. I can't imagine going through life without God. Through the good times and the bad times God is always there whether it's to comfort or help celebrate. I just can't imagine it. And God knows I get mad at Him and believe at times He's nothing but a practical joker raining sick jokes on me. But those are the times I need Him most.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#848881 - 04/07/05 09:39 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
 Quote:
As for not reading Tom's posts for years like you have, I'm sorry, my bad. Obviously you know him better, thats fine. How arrogant of me to respond to the content of a current post rather than track the man longitudinally before offering any remarks. I hang my head in shame.
You joke...
But look at what you did. You wanted to get into a debate with me about something I said yesterday, and attacked Tom's post to make an example out of it.
Then it backfired, because you don't understand what you're talking about (when it comes to belief in God I mean... you're more than intelligent about most other things).
Then you try to dissect what I've said, and say that I'm parading around like a fool.
Anyone reading this knows I wasn't hinging the whole subject on one technicality. That is simply one obvious difference between Tom's logic and the logic I commented on yesterday.

It is almost as if you just have it in for me. You're not even paying attention to the discussion you and I are having, which is that I said I would hold people to the same standard on both sides of the fence regarding juvenile understandings of complex subject matter. That's what you responded to, and that is the context of this discussion. But rather than approach it that way, you simply want to dissect and critique each part of my posts to make me appear foolish.
Kudos... you've succeeded. I am a complete fool for all of Piano World to see.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848882 - 04/07/05 10:01 AM Re: Let Us Pray
tcmod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 862
Loc: NC
So will Tom hold God accountable if anything horrible befalls his family or financial kingdom? If he and others pay such tribute to God for their good fortune, than surely God must be to blame for the ill as well. He is a cruel jokester, that God.

Top
#848883 - 04/07/05 10:11 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
I don't think "blame" is the right word.

do you "blame" your parents for hurting you if when they let go of the back of your bike for the first time, you fall?

Again, this thinking demonstrates a very narrow understanding of the entire concept of the Christian God.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848884 - 04/07/05 10:15 AM Re: Let Us Pray
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by tcmod:
So will Tom hold God accountable if anything horrible befalls his family or financial kingdom? If he and others pay such tribute to God for their good fortune, than surely God must be to blame for the ill as well. He is a cruel jokester, that God. [/b]
IMHO (and I hesitate to speak for others) that it's during those times when something *horrible befalls* us that we need God the most. IMHO Tom would probably turn and become closer to God than he already is. It's during the horrible times that we are humbled. JMHO of course.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#848885 - 04/07/05 10:15 AM Re: Let Us Pray
tcmod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 862
Loc: NC
Whether or not the word is to your liking the sentiment is the same. If one attributes all that is good in one's life to God.....where do you point the finger when it hits the fan? Come on, either God wasn't watching when (insert disaster here) or it was His will or Satan won this one. HOw can you give all glory to God for the good stuff, but shrug off the bad stuff? Enlighten me.

Top
#848886 - 04/07/05 10:16 AM Re: Let Us Pray
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by tcmod:
Whether or not the word is to your liking the sentiment is the same. If one attributes all that is good in one's life to God.....where do you point the finger when it hits the fan? Come on, either God wasn't watching when (insert disaster here) or it was His will or Satan won this one. HOw can you give all glory to God for the good stuff, but shrug off the bad stuff? Enlighten me. [/b]
There can be beauty in tragedy.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#848887 - 04/07/05 10:24 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
tcmod,
As I said, this demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the nature of God.
I mean, do you really want to understand God, or do you want me to share your lack of understanding? Are you trying to prove me wrong, or are you genuinely trying to understand God's nature?

If you are truly seeking understanding, it's easy enough to find. This issue is one that is covered extensively.
Any study of God's character will show that God loves his creation, desires the best for them, and yet still allows them to make their own decisions. That works on a situational basis (good decision vs. bad decision), but also works on a global basis. God created a perfect world where "bad" didn't exist. Man chose to have knowledge of "good" and "bad". Man chose to do a lot of things, and was allowed to.
Now a bit further down the timeline, the whole "painting" is "smeared". Bad things happen all the time, not because God is some causal part of every second that passes, but because we've asked to be left alone, and to be able to do things ourselves regardless of the consequences.
Why would be blame God for the bad things? Why wouldn't we assume that there might be consequences for our (humans in general, not individuals) actions? I differentiate between self and whole because the next logical argument is "what about a person who loses their child in a tragic accident... did they deserve that?"... of course not. I think it's possible that one person's actions can affect another person. And that can cause disappointment, even tragedy for someone who seemingly doesn't "have it coming". But that does not speak to God's callousness... at least not to me. I guess I'm looking at the whole thing a bit deeper than that.
Again, would you blame your parents, and accuse them of deliberately hurting you for letting you ride your shiny new two-wheel bike, and crash it? After all, they had the power to keep you from riding that bike and falling. They had the power to protect you, and didn't.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848888 - 04/07/05 10:50 AM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:
 Quote:
As for not reading Tom's posts for years like you have, I'm sorry, my bad. Obviously you know him better, thats fine. How arrogant of me to respond to the content of a current post rather than track the man longitudinally before offering any remarks. I hang my head in shame.
You joke...
But look at what you did. You wanted to get into a debate with me about something I said yesterday, and attacked Tom's post to make an example out of it.
Then it backfired, because you don't understand what you're talking about (when it comes to belief in God I mean... you're more than intelligent about most other things).
Then you try to dissect what I've said, and say that I'm parading around like a fool.
Anyone reading this knows I wasn't hinging the whole subject on one technicality. That is simply one obvious difference between Tom's logic and the logic I commented on yesterday.

It is almost as if you just have it in for me. You're not even paying attention to the discussion you and I are having, which is that I said I would hold people to the same standard on both sides of the fence regarding juvenile understandings of complex subject matter. That's what you responded to, and that is the context of this discussion. But rather than approach it that way, you simply want to dissect and critique each part of my posts to make me appear foolish.
Kudos... you've succeeded. I am a complete fool for all of Piano World to see. [/b]
I believe I have been paying attention to this discussion, and I dont see how I've departed from that. And I believe I've approached it exactly that way. You said you'd fault someone for a certain type of logic, I offered an example, and now you're throwing a tantrum and not saying how my example is in error. If it is, just show me how. Tantrums dont help.

And you dont find it the slightest bit arrogant to say I dont know what I'm talking about in respect to belief in god? Why would you make that assumption. I have been exactly where you are. Why do you assume your experience is more valid than mine? Especially since you just criticized me for not knowing all of Tom, so I dont have the right to comment on him, yet you have the right to make these huge assessments about me and my life? Yes, that is parading foolishness.

And calling me a joke...is that your christian response? Is that the way Jesus talked to people?

No, I dont have it in for you. But when you throw tantrums and call me names rather than speak to my points, what response would you expect from me?
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

Top
#848889 - 04/07/05 10:53 AM Re: Let Us Pray
tcmod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 862
Loc: NC
kb...first of all please dispense with your insults. It makes reading the rest of your well written post very difficult. I posed a very simple question that has been asked many times and deserves to be answered. Many people state that God is with them every second of every day bestowing upon them things they are not capable of achieving themselves. Knowledge of good and bad, the existence of free will do not cover all of the disasters that we as a whole suffer on a daily basis. You simply can't trace the cause of every bad thing to a bad decision made in the past. A butterfly in the Amazon may cause a hurricane someplace else, but that doesn't work when it comes to Susie's inoperable brain tumor. By the way, I am not trying to prove you wrong or anything else. Just having some discourse about the way some people choose to worship. Yes I would blame my parents if they let the bike go before I was ready. If I suffered a subdural hematoma and died on the spot it would indeed be their fault and not the fault of God.

Top
#848890 - 04/07/05 10:58 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
LOL I didn't call you a joke sidd... Joke is a verb in this case, not a noun....

And tantrum? ... I fail to see where I've had a tantrum.

You asked me to point out where you were in error, and I did... refer to earlier posts, I'm too lazy to copy/paste it all. You disagreed, that's fine, but don't tell me I haven't pointed out where your assumptions were false.

As for your right to believe as you wish, and the validity of said beliefs...
Your beliefs are valid, and I'm sure sincere. You have the right to comment on whatever you want, but that does not mean I do not have the right of rebuttal. I simply disagree with you on a number of things, but I still think your viewpoints are valid.
You have said some things however, that display a lack of understanding and/or experience. That is not calling names or condemnation, it is simply an observation. You have told me I am wrong in that assumption, and I concede, I don't know your life, or your history. But I would expect that if you really had intimate experience with religion ... any religion... that you wouldn't argue on such basic points and principles.
It's not that I'm judging your experience or life, I'm simply going by what you've displayed, which is not a very complex understanding of God's character. I don't mean that to be insulting in any way, it is simply an observation. As I stated earlier, I consider you to be very articulate in most cases, and extremely intelligent.
I do feel though, as if you "have it in" for me sometimes.
As to speaking to your points, I feel I have. I feel as though I have addressed everything you've brought up, and while I have become heated, I have not called you names (I typically don't as you know). That was simply a misunderstanding addressed in the first line of this post.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848891 - 04/07/05 11:09 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
tcmod, I haven't insulted you (?) Or at least have not tried to.

If my "lack of understanding" comment is considered insulting, why are you asking the question? I would think that any question demonstrates a lack of understanding at some level for said subject matter. I didn't mean to insult you.

The question has been answered I think many times when it has been brought up. I don't know what else I can tell you.
I think millennia upon millennia of man's inability to make good decisions has tainted a lot of the world. I think that the world has gotten progressively worse as man has moved away from God in the spiritual sense, and away from creation (read: perfection) in the linear/time-line sense.
But we don't agree on those items as even being real, so how can I use that as a basis to answer your question?
I can't... but lo it is the answer... so we are at an impasse.
I think Man can be blessed by God. Not as a reward, but because he loves us, and because he knows his plan for ours, and for others' lives. I also think bad things can happen to Man, and be allowed to happen. I don't see this as punishment, nor is it taught to be so. I think such an understanding of "good" and "bad" is to dismiss much of the complexity of God's Love.

Read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis for more on this subject. I clearly don't have the ability to communicate what I want to in an articulate fashion, and seem to be insulting people left and right when I'm trying only to have a logical discussion. Lewis does a much better job of explaining these concepts, and why they are not indicative of an uncaring God.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848892 - 04/07/05 11:21 AM Re: Let Us Pray
tcmod Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/26/04
Posts: 862
Loc: NC
 Quote:
Originally posted by KlavierBauer:
tcmod,
As I said, this demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the nature of God.
I mean, do you really want to understand God, or do you want me to share your lack of understanding? Are you trying to prove me wrong, or are you genuinely trying to understand God's nature? [/b]
Kb this was hardly friendly. In any case we agree on more than you realize. I have read CS Lewis and others and am very comfortable with God and his role in my life and in other's lives. But when I read someone being a bit of a braggart and going on about how God has chosen to bless him more than others I can't help myself. God loves us all and to propose that He blesses some more than others and plays favorites does more harm than good. It doesn't do much to further the cause of Christianity to suggest that God might just not like you.

Top
#848893 - 04/07/05 11:29 AM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
KB, Well you say my beliefs are valid but also say I dont know what I'm talking about in respect to belief in god. I dont see how those remarks are compatible.

I think it might behoove you to accept that some people have different understandings than you do and that is not the same as "lack" of understanding.

As for arguing basic points and principles, with religion, the devil is in the details (interesting pun). Its the mechanics of religious systems that zealots wave around and foist on others, and its those very mechanics that are so easily dismantled. So if you or someone else is going to wave a point or principle in my face, yes I will argue its transparency.

I am much more exhilarated by discussing the higher order of the topic, as in why is religion here, what does it represent, why so many flavors, how is it an effective device or not, how does the concept of god relate to the human condition. In my opinion, answers to these questions are just as glorious and exciting as the experiences people have within the different systems. These arent at all straightforward, they are very abstract and complicated, but thats where I live, contrary to your earlier assessment of me.

I dont expect you would be inclined to discuss those topics as they cant really coexist with with the platform you speak from. So as long as you offer religious dogma for me to swallow, I will respond with my reasons for gagging. Not for a minute do I suggest that you shouldnt believe, or that you're not happy, or that your beliefs are inappropriate for you. My problem comes when these things are proclaimed to be absolutes for one and all. They are not. My further problem comes when there is an associated hostility/condescension/ridicule toward "nonbelievers" from "believers" (speaking in general now, not you specifically). That demonstrates for me that there is a lot of hate and fear involved. These things are not glorious or exciting.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

Top
#848894 - 04/07/05 12:45 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

There can be beauty in tragedy.
Strangely, the victims never see it.
_________________________
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Top
#848895 - 04/07/05 12:50 PM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
 Quote:
My further problem comes when there is an associated hostility/condescension/ridicule toward "nonbelievers" from "believers" (speaking in general now, not you specifically). That demonstrates for me that there is a lot of hate and fear involved. These things are not glorious or exciting.
I agree completely.

I apologize that I have kept using the words "lack of understanding". I guess in my mind when speaking those words to myself I was thinking them very logically, as in we clearly have different understandings, and that your understanding is lacking something that is within mine, just as my understanding is lacking something that is within yours. I don't mean to invalidate your feelings or beliefs. This statement is applicable to tcmod as well...

I am sorry that I am not always a concise thinker. I get very heated sometimes when I feel someone is questioning something only to be antagonistic, with no real desire to understand the answer, and I apologize for that.

I wrote all of that at least an hour ago... sorry I got stuck doing some work.

I just want to be clear that I enjoy these discussions, even if I'm not the most skilled at having them. I think it's nice to discuss opposing view points, and to discuss difficult concepts and ideas that people have come to different conclusions about.

I apologize if because of my "no edit" style of posting, and a mild case of ADD I get caught in a line of reasoning that becomes seemingly insluting or intolerant.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848896 - 04/07/05 01:00 PM Re: Let Us Pray
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Moonbat:
 Quote:

There can be beauty in tragedy.
Strangely, the victims never see it. [/b]
It's not easy to see. I'll admit to that. I'm sure you could cite examples where they never see it and I could cite examples where they do. I believe having God in my life helps to find and see beauty when I feel lost. As I said above I can't imagine life without God. I say this humbly.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#848897 - 04/07/05 01:07 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Tom--K:
Here's something. I believe in God--he's been good to me. Really, I don't know much about business. I never have and never will. You look at my answers in the "hay you financial geniuses" threads--and mine come across as pretty dufus. I really don't know business.

But, I bet you can roll all the financial geniuses together and I can easily buy and sell them.

I never was much good with girls, No girlfriends in HS, one in college. Then my wife--babe of all time, Yale, Columbia, georgous, and all that. Did pantyhose ads for Hanes stockings. Good Catholic to boot.

The kids--not the time to get into it, but gifts. Two gifts.

All I can say is that as good as I think I am (and I know I think I'm good,)--it ain't me. I'm not that good.

God has blessed me. And I'm thankful.

There is a God.
And why--I don't know. But, I know I'm not that good and he's blessed me. [/b]
Tom, you magnificent bastard, you have said it all. Unfortunately, most here will never figure it out because they take themselves far too seriously. [/b]
Best post and response in this laborious sucker ...
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#848898 - 04/07/05 01:11 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

If you are truly seeking understanding, it's easy enough to find. This issue is one that is covered extensively.
Any study of God's character will show that God loves his creation, desires the best for them, and yet still allows them to make their own decisions. That works on a situational basis (good decision vs. bad decision), but also works on a global basis. God created a perfect world where "bad" didn't exist. Man chose to have knowledge of "good" and "bad". Man chose to do a lot of things, and was allowed to.
Now a bit further down the timeline, the whole "painting" is "smeared". Bad things happen all the time, not because God is some causal part of every second that passes, but because we've asked to be left alone, and to be able to do things ourselves regardless of the consequences.
Why would be blame God for the bad things? Why wouldn't we assume that there might be consequences for our (humans in general, not individuals) actions? I differentiate between self and whole because the next logical argument is "what about a person who loses their child in a tragic accident... did they deserve that?"... of course not. I think it's possible that one person's actions can affect another person. And that can cause disappointment, even tragedy for someone who seemingly doesn't "have it coming". But that does not speak to God's callousness... at least not to me. I guess I'm looking at the whole thing a bit deeper than that.
God built the world, God made the rules, viruses infect, earthquakes demolish, volcanoes burn, all dancing to the laws of physics, laws chosen by God.

Many of the events known as "natural disasters" occur on other planets, occured on our planet prior to man's occupancy, and in many instances are very well understood in terms of the underlying physics. Surely given that, it is beyond doubt that there are causal factors outside of man's influence?
_________________________
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Top
#848899 - 04/07/05 01:15 PM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
 Quote:
God built the world, God made the rules, viruses infect, earthquakes demolish, volcanoes burn, all dancing to the laws of physics, laws chosen by God.

Many of the events known as "natural disasters" occur on other planets, occured on our planet prior to man's occupancy, and in many instances are very well understood in terms of the underlying physics. Surely given that, it is beyond doubt that there are causal factors outside of man's influence?
Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'm quick enough to know exactly what you mean by this.
Are you saying that it's clear that these things don't happy to ruin man's life, but happen because of the system they're a part of?
If so, I think that's a good point
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

Top
#848900 - 04/07/05 01:31 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

Unfortunately, I'm not sure I'm quick enough to know exactly what you mean by this.
Are you saying that it's clear that these things don't happy to ruin man's life, but happen because of the system they're a part of?
If so, I think that's a good point
From your post it seemed like you were placing blame for natural disasters at man's feet: We chose to be able to do bad things, we have ended up in a world where bad things happen. But, we didn't alter the laws of physics, that is presumeably Gods domain, and natural disasters emerge from the laws of physics, Earthquakes happen because of the structure of planets, so it would seem Earthquakes are God's 'fault', for whatever reason he's chosen to create a natural world where Earthquakes occur, knowing that doing so would inevitably cause suffering.
_________________________
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Top
#848901 - 04/07/05 01:47 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Moonbat Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 265
Loc: Bristol, England
 Quote:

It's not easy to see. I'll admit to that. I'm sure you could cite examples where they never see it and I could cite examples where they do.
I mean no disrespect, but to suggest beauty in the suffering of others seems to somehow trivialise that suffering. I see no beauty in those in poverty dying of AIDs, or the tsunami victims who have lost their children.

For me atleast the kind of suffering described above is the very essense of uglyness.

 Quote:

I believe having God in my life helps to find and see beauty when I feel lost. As I said above I can't imagine life without God. I say this humbly.
I think the ability to see beauty when lost is a true strength, i hope it always stays with you.
_________________________
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Top
#848902 - 04/07/05 02:13 PM Re: Let Us Pray
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Moonbat:
 Quote:

It's not easy to see. I'll admit to that. I'm sure you could cite examples where they never see it and I could cite examples where they do.
I mean no disrespect, but to suggest beauty in the suffering of others seems to somehow trivialise that suffering. I see no beauty in those in poverty dying of AIDs, or the tsunami victims who have lost their children.

For me atleast the kind of suffering described above is the very essense of uglyness.

 Quote:

I believe having God in my life helps to find and see beauty when I feel lost. As I said above I can't imagine life without God. I say this humbly.
I think the ability to see beauty when lost is a true strength, i hope it always stays with you. [/b]
I understand and certainly would never want to trivialize someone's pain and suffering. My cousin died of AIDS. I believe he's in a better place and finally at peace. That's his beauty. He's no longer in pain emotionally and physically. As to the tsunami victims I'm doing my best to find something beautiful resulting from such a tragedy.

Where I fail to find beauty is in evil. Pure evil. Where people hurt others intentionally for their own pleasure. I fail to find beauty in pedophiles and rapists for example. Where's the beauty in that?

Or racism? where's the beauty in racism? Sorry to go on.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#848903 - 04/07/05 02:57 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Steve Chandler Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/18/05
Posts: 2778
Loc: Urbandale, Iowa
I need to echo Jolly's sentiment that this is a laborious sucker, 4 pages and no end in sight. What we have here is discussion between the logical aetheists and believers. Both are convinced they're right and the other is off the wall. Well I found something today that will agree with neither of you. I offer this link for your pleasure of agreement. You'll all probably think this is nuts and perhaps it is, or maybe this guy's right and you're all only seeing part of the picture;

http://www.kryon.com/k_chanelhowbig.html

Top
Page 3 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >

What's Hot!!

Trade Regrets:
Barry "Bear" Arnaut

(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Other Yamaha DGx 640/650 owners here ?
by vbdx66
11/25/14 06:19 PM
Going from ETD to aural - only octaves, only bass
by pinkfloydhomer
11/25/14 05:28 PM
The less I practice, the better I get :-)
by Mark_C
11/25/14 04:49 PM
Reasons behind notes as letters rather than numbers?
by TowardsTheEdge
11/25/14 04:31 PM
collard & collard
by Bob Newbie
11/25/14 03:39 PM
Forum Stats
77041 Members
42 Forums
159350 Topics
2340748 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission