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#848994 - 04/08/05 06:39 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
TomK: "I'm a just old line Calvinist at heart."

So how does this Calvinist thing really work? I mean, if nothing we do can possibly make us deserve salvation, then I have as good a chance as any, right?

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#848995 - 04/08/05 06:44 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
Horace,

The answer is:

Tom--K as I created the on line "personality" is bit of an egomaniac, not too much, but just enough to be a bit grating, or at least that's the way he was intended. (These things do take on a life of their own!) He likes to get on his high horse about things. On the other hand he has a glimpse of self knowledge, not too much, but just a bit to be vulnerable at the most unexpected times. It's one of the things that gives a bit of edge to the character.

All the best--

Bill \:\)

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#848996 - 04/08/05 07:03 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
apple: "Do you help people altruistically?"

This is a very interesting question. A quick response would be to point out that religion doesn't really give a reason for acting altruistically. If the idea is that God rewards me for being good by sending me to Heaven, and punishes me for being bad by sending me to Hell, then I am not really acting altruistically when I help someone else, I am only acting in my own long-term self interest. Buddhist arguments for "altruistic" behavior have the same form: altruistic actions help my future re-incarnations.

More later on secular approaches to the "Why be moral?" question, from Plato to the present. (My doctoral dissertation was on moral philosophy, including questions like this.) I must now go feed the baby, who is being a little fussy right now.

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#848997 - 04/08/05 10:11 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
If the idea is that God rewards me for being good by sending me to Heaven, and punishes me for being bad by sending me to Hell[/b]

This is not what Christianity teaches. Not even close.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#848998 - 04/09/05 11:36 AM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
Thank you Larry.

I dropped out of this thread because I was offending people by talking about lack of understanding.
I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, because I don't mean it like that. But as you can see there are some huge misconceptions about basic tenants of Christianity.

How can I have communicate what I want to if someone's understanding of God is: I do good, I am rewarded. I do bad, I am punished.
I hope I can learn to better articulate what I'm thinking, so that I can share understanding without insulting.
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#848999 - 04/09/05 02:37 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Horace:
Just own it. You're an egomaniac who's not satisfied with having "everything", you also need to rub everybody else's nose in the fact that you have it. You can try to assuage your guilt over your egomania by attributing everything to God, but you're not gonna fool those of us with an objective view of human nature. [/b]
Well, that was certainly objective, and spot-on.

:rolleyes:

This real-live Calvinist, whom I'm sure Tom could buy & sell multiple times over, understood perfectly what he meant. Of course, I'm probably not being objective.

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#849000 - 04/09/05 02:41 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
Dwain, I was only being arch about the Calvinist thing--please forgive me. I was teasing a bit.

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#849001 - 04/09/05 02:47 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Why, did you think that offended me? I laughed at that line, bud! Sheesh, everyone's so worried about offending everyone else around here; you'd think we were walking around on a college campus or something. \:\)

The "arch"-itect,

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#849002 - 04/09/05 03:13 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Horace Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/28/04
Posts: 505
Ok. God spends His time making sure TomK has billions of dollars. Praise be to Him. Now that we've established that He has no problem affecting material things here on Earth, I can only be awed at what must be the complexity and inscrutibility of His plan, what with all the murder and disease and war and cruelty and then the one rich guy in America.

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#849003 - 04/09/05 03:14 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
Why, did you think that offended me? I laughed at that line, bud! Sheesh, everyone's so worried about offending everyone else around here; you'd think we were walking around on a college campus or something. \:\)

The "arch"-itect, [/b]
Dwain--we have MODERATORS around here. We have to be nice! You don't have to worry you're that way already--but this is a whole new thing for me. \:D

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#849004 - 04/09/05 03:23 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
No Tom, you're wrong on that count. See, you're not the only one that screens his true character online. You created a TomK to be more in-your-face and ornery than the real one is in person. I just created a Dwain Lee that was nice. \:\)

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#849005 - 04/09/05 03:24 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Larry: "I do *not* accept the extremes of evolutional thought however, that says man used to be a monkey, which used to be a fish, which used to be a virus."

That's not what evolution teaches, not even close. Look up the word "cladistics" and then we can talk.

At any rate if people don't want to admit that ministers and Sunday schools around the land teach that those who don't follow God's word and sin go to hell, while heaven is for those who follow the straight and narrow, then well, we might as well argue over whether white is black, or up is down. No point in debating someone who won't accept plain facts into evidence.

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#849006 - 04/09/05 03:45 PM Re: Let Us Pray
KlavierBauer Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/06/02
Posts: 3773
Loc: Boulder, Colorado
please display said facts...
And please if you're going to include the whole Christian Church in what's "being taught" then please give forth examples for each branch.
For example, I am an Orthodox Christian, please show me some branch of Orthodoxy (Russian, OCA, Greek, Antiochian) that teaches in the "pulpit" and in Sunday School that people doing good go to Heaven while people doing bad go to Hell.

This is just totally false.

Yes, one or more of the the ~10,000 (source: David A. Barrett’s World Christian Encyclopedia: A Comparative Survey of Churches and Religions in the Modern World A.D. 1900—2000) Protestant denominations may teach this, or snake handling, or any of a number of heretical teachings. But this is not a tenant of the Early Church, and to my knowledge is not a standard teaching of any of the "early" branches of the Church (Catholic or Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, or Orthodox).

More than anything it makes me sad that there are Christians out there giving you the idea that this is normal teaching.
I'm very sorry that there are professed Christians out there thinking this is sound Theology. It is clearly not what Christ taught, nor what his Apostles taught.

Perhaps this is the basis for much of our misunderstanding.

EDIT:
For Protestants out there I want to be clear that I'm not dismissing Protestant teachings... I grew up in a Presbyterian Church. I'm just using the early Church as some sort of standard or baseline for what is "Christian" - not dismissing everything that isn't "Early Church".
_________________________
Outlive Yourself - Become an Organ Donor

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#849007 - 04/09/05 03:49 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
No Tom, you're wrong on that count. See, you're not the only one that screens his true character online. You created a TomK to be more in-your-face and ornery than the real one is in person. I just created a Dwain Lee that was nice. \:\) [/b]
:D \:D \:D

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#849008 - 04/09/05 09:25 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
At any rate if people don't want to admit that ministers and Sunday schools around the land teach that those who don't follow God's word and sin go to hell, while heaven is for those who follow the straight and narrow, then well, we might as well argue over whether white is black, or up is down. No point in debating someone who won't accept plain facts into evidence.[/b]


No offense Jeffrey, but if sinning kept people out of heaven, the place would be empty. That's the whole point of it - we *all* are going to sin. *None* of us can walk the straight and narrow good enough to get there. Both of these views are man trying to get to heaven by their own efforts, and that is completely contradictory to the teachings of Christianity.

There is only one way to get there, Jeffrey. Walking the straight and narrow won't do it. Not sinning won't do it. Both are impossible tasks. But the way to do it is simple Jeffrey, so simple you could do it in less time than it took you to read this. You don't even have to get out of your chair.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#849009 - 04/09/05 09:39 PM Re: Let Us Pray
yhabpo Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 489
 Quote:
There is only one way to get there, Jeffrey. Walking the straight and narrow won't do it. Not sinning won't do it. Both are impossible tasks. But the way to do it is simple Jeffrey, so simple you could do it in less time than it took you to read this. You don't even have to get out of your chair.
Why didn't you say it? Are you ashamed? Were you self-conscious of the fact that the evangelical preaching is too embarrassing to come out of your mouth?

You are insubstantial.

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#849010 - 04/09/05 11:49 PM Re: Let Us Pray
Siddhartha Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/08/04
Posts: 1244
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
There is only one way to get there, Jeffrey. Walking the straight and narrow won't do it. Not sinning won't do it. Both are impossible tasks. But the way to do it is simple Jeffrey, so simple you could do it in less time than it took you to read this. You don't even have to get out of your chair. [/b]
I find it not simple, nay, borders on impossible, to believe, accept, and invest faith in notions that seem utterly ludicrous. I'd have to get out of a lot more than my chair to accomplish that.
_________________________
I was born the year Glenn Gould stop playing concerts. Coincidence?

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#849011 - 04/10/05 12:15 AM Re: Let Us Pray
Axtremus Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/03
Posts: 6186
Live by THE FORCE.

THE FORCE is the only true path.

May THE FORCE be with you.[/b]
_________________________
www.PianoRecital.org -- my piano recordings

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