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#851125 - 07/15/03 05:03 PM Re: TROLLS
Sam_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 239
Loc: NYC
Gryphon, I think LP believes in the inalienable rights of the individual to self-determination without overt pressure from groups with hidden agenda. I think he believes in freedom of choice, equality, integrity, compassion, transparency, and I suspect he despises hypocrisy.

BTW, I am happy your son has returned home safely. He has my sincere thanks for serving his country.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#851126 - 07/15/03 05:07 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
maybe it should be moved to a separate header?[/b]
And this is because...what? Why?
[/b]
I wish I could say it came from an overly developed sense of order. Really, takes up memory space in my mind that I could devote to learning the Beethoven Op 106.

Ken

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#851127 - 07/15/03 05:16 PM Re: TROLLS
Sam_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 239
Loc: NYC
Hey, you edited your post. OK, Gryphon and Jolly, Jesus always sided with the marginalized so I see no reason why he wouldn't be an advocate for the ostracized of our time. I know that he didn't like to pass judgement on others. And since we are all sinners I don't understand why some of us feel that it's their duty to be the moral police when Christ abstained himself from doing just that. I have absolutely no idea what constitutes proper Christian behavior; (and Jolly I never said that I did) it has not been practiced since Christ died.

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#851128 - 07/15/03 05:22 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Sam, I am slow and dull-witted (just ask anyone here), so please clarify your post for me. Are you saying Jesus would condone homosexuality, sex-change operations, abortions, and frivolous divorce? Are any of those actions wrong?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#851129 - 07/15/03 05:32 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Gryphon,

I believe you and Sam are speaking on different points. I believe you are saying you find it hard to reconcile LP's stand on issues relative to Christian values (e.g. abortion, divorce, etc.) while Sam speaks of behavior (e.g. intolerance, treating "enemies" with love) as key component of Christian values. Talk the talk, walk the walk stuff.

Ken

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#851130 - 07/15/03 05:33 PM Re: TROLLS
SR Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/12/01
Posts: 718
Loc: Los Angeles
Wow, and all this from a TROLL question.

Was Jesus a troll ? You know fisher of men.

Steve
_________________________
www.mozartforum.com

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#851131 - 07/15/03 05:33 PM Re: TROLLS
Sam_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 239
Loc: NYC
Gryphon, I know he wouldn't scorn them, or dismiss them like we are doing. So, do you think they are wrong because of what the bible says, or because of your own personal beliefs? And if the latter, what makes them wrong?

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#851132 - 07/15/03 05:35 PM Re: TROLLS
Sam_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 239
Loc: NYC
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
Gryphon,

I believe you and Sam are speaking on different points. I believe you are saying you find it hard to reconcile LP's stand on issues relative to Christian values (e.g. abortion, divorce, etc.) while Sam speaks of behavior (e.g. intolerance, treating "enemies" with love) as key component of Christian values. Talk the talk, walk the walk stuff.

Ken [/b]
Exactly, Ken. Thank you. I just suck at this debating thing.

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#851133 - 07/15/03 05:46 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Sam:
I just suck at this debating thing. [/b]
No, I don't think so. You're doing a pretty good job. Hang in there. JMVHO,
justme

BTW does LP claim to be a Christian?
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851134 - 07/15/03 05:48 PM Re: TROLLS
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Gryphon - you're nuts if you believe Christ condemns homosexuality. it's an is[/b] not a sin! - I'm a Catholic and I think Catholic moms just chose not to think about it, "Honey - why don't you become a priest", although I think we might have been taught it was a sin. Who knows?

There is a huge world beyond what you believe and have been taught. God rules over all. You should stand true to your beliefs but I don't know that that should include simply dismissing others who believe differently.. Why do you think God created so many religions?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#851135 - 07/15/03 06:01 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
I think we've been down this path before.

Aa I interpret the Bible, yes, homosexuality is a sin. As the denomination I belong to, interprets it, homosexuality is a sin.

It doesn't matter what is out there in the "world", the church is called to not be of this "world". If you've got too many folks agreeing with your Christian stance, your practice of Christianity probably ain't good enough.

Now, there are no big, or little sins in the eyes of God. For reasons I don't understand, murder, and telling a lie, occupy the same level.

But no, at the end of the day, all sins, are still sins.
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851136 - 07/15/03 06:03 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
Gryphon - you're nuts if you believe Christ condemns homosexuality. it's an is[/b] not a sin! - I'm a Catholic and I think Catholic moms just chose not to think about it, "Honey - why don't you become a priest", although I think we might have been taught it was a sin. Who knows?

There is a huge world beyond what you believe and have been taught. God rules over all. You should stand true to your beliefs but I don't know that that should include simply dismissing others who believe differently.. Why do you think God created so many religions? [/b]
Thank you, Apple, for saying something I couldn't. I just can't picture Jesus condemning my son. This kid has to be the most sensitive, loving, forgiving person I've ever met. And, as far as homosexuality goes, my son WAS born that way and if he could be heterosexual he would be. I, too, was raised Catholic. Catholics believe that homosexuality is not a sin. But, they do believe practicing homosexuality is. Therefore, many young men refuse to give into their gay sexual tendencies and marry God instead. Priests are considered "Brides of Christ." Unfortunately, this has been terrible for the church because of those sleezy renegade priests.
JMHO,
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851137 - 07/15/03 06:08 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:

 Quote:
Originally posted by Sam:
I just suck at this debating thing. [/b]
[/b]
Christ hung around with some pretty unsavory characters (e.g. Mary Magdaline) and treated them with a lot of affection. At the same time, he was pretty brutal towards the more devout religious folks of his time. They played the troll with him - asking questions about the law -- relative to the Sabath as I recall. He seemed to advocate something beyond sophistry. His was a simpler message, yet difficult to achieve - a purity of heart and soul -- devotion to the Lord and love of one's fellow men and women.

He proposed that one should do whatever was necessary to achieve this end -- even cutting off one's hand if it were necessary (great to bring closure to two threads!).

Sam -- even Gryphon doesn't want you to sweat the "debate" -- don't amount to a hill of beans -- as Bogie would say.

Ken

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#851138 - 07/15/03 06:10 PM Re: TROLLS
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Whoa!!!

This thread about trolls is venturing off in to the wild blue yonder. Don't some of you who want to discuss homosexuality, and the Catholic church think that it would be better to start a new thread?

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#851139 - 07/15/03 06:14 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Now, there are no big, or little sins in the eyes of God. For reasons I don't understand, murder, and telling a lie, occupy the same level.

But no, at the end of the day, all sins, are still sins. [/b]
Interesting... I'm more used to the Catholic stata of things. Thus, telling a friend her soup "tastes great" would be considered less evil than stabbing a child.

If one commits no sins, not a problem...

Ken

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#851140 - 07/15/03 06:16 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by bcarey:
Whoa!!!

This thread about trolls is venturing off in to the wild blue yonder. Don't some of you who want to discuss homosexuality, and the Catholic church think that it would be better to start a new thread? [/b]
I tried...we have an overly developed sense of order. In Buddhist traditions, one is taught to "let go" of these thoughts...breathe deeply and clear your mind...

Ken

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#851141 - 07/15/03 06:18 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
Interesting... I'm more used to the Catholic stata of things. Thus, telling a friend her soup "tastes great" would be considered less evil than stabbing a child.

If one commits no sins, not a problem...

Ken [/b]
Ken, me too. It's what Catholics call "mental reservation." I guess it's used when you want to eliminate little truths by using words of kindness. The Protestants have taught "if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all."
Can you tell on these forums who was raised what?
;\)
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851142 - 07/15/03 06:30 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Wha-? I was just going to post a link for justme to the thread on the exact same question I raised in April in the Piano FOrum (I guess that's where I spent most of my time back then) when I see this has veered off into a wholly different direction.

From where - gays "trolling" for partners at a party? I'll see once I paste the address here...Maybe it's just as well I posted MY troll question in the Piano Forum after all! At worst it could have gone off into the never-never-land of: "Are Steinway's really worth it?".

OK, here's the link: What is a Troll?

Say, can anybody think of any other uses for Bounce fabric softener squares? How about mentholatum, or Avon Skin-so-soft??

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851143 - 07/15/03 06:49 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Off topic to Ariel:
Did someone call your avatar Frank Zappa. I must be out of it. I thought it was Doc Holliday! You'd make a good Doc Holliday, not sure about Zappa? How did you pick it?
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851144 - 07/15/03 06:59 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
oh no, Frank Zappa??? He smokes a cigar? I thought it was Mark Twain (as played by Hal Holbrook). He seems to be the "great mind" I most often quote around here (or THINK I do - perhaps he's just the sock-puppet for the great minds whose names I do not recall when a cynical witticism comes to mind).

OK, everyone, who IS my avatar (or, as the case may be - soon-to-be-former-avatar)?

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851145 - 07/15/03 07:01 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Samuel Clemens for sure....

Ken

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#851146 - 07/15/03 07:06 PM Re: TROLLS
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I thought it was Samuel Clemens - or his sock puppet, Mark Twain. In any case, it's definitely not Zappa.

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#851147 - 07/15/03 07:09 PM Re: TROLLS
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Ariel - would you trust us to pick a new avatar for you? \:\)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#851148 - 07/15/03 07:10 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
oh no, Frank Zappa??? He smokes a cigar? I thought it was Mark Twain (as played by Hal Holbrook). He seems to be the "great mind" I most often quote around here (or THINK I do - perhaps he's just the sock-puppet for the great minds whose names I do not recall when a cynical witticism comes to mind).

OK, everyone, who IS my avatar (or, as the case may be - soon-to-be-former-avatar)?

Ariel [/b]
That explains it. I never could read Mark Twain/sock puppet/Samuel Clemens. I preferred Dickens... Glad to hear it wasn't Zappa. Nothing against Zappa it just didn't fit. How do you like my lipstick?
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851149 - 07/15/03 07:13 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Whassamatter, apple - you don't think I look good with a moustache?
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851150 - 07/15/03 07:22 PM Re: TROLLS
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
If I were you - and I know I'm not... I'd pick either the Mona Lisa with the enigmatic, indefinable smile or Einstein.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#851151 - 07/15/03 07:32 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Ariel, how about two different ones. Einstein for serious posts and the woman yacking on the phone for fun posts? You do have to get rid of the moustache. Altho' I'm starting to get used to it. I was sure it was Doc Holliday and you were coming out with both barrels hunting down trolls!
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851152 - 07/15/03 08:20 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
I was kind of thinking more along the lines of Audrey Hepburn...
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851153 - 07/15/03 08:43 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
originally posted by apple:

If I were you - and I know I'm not... [/b]

Now, now, now "apple"...Don't you think it's time we came clean? I feel so, so...sock-puppetish. About a 50-45% cotton/poly blend with 5% nylon for stablity.

I'd pick either the Mona Lisa with the enigmatic, indefinable smile or Einstein.[/b]

How about combining them? Hmmm. Einstein (though he DID have a moustache too) with an enigmatic, quizzical smile as if he were about to announce e=mc2 - or, according to historical speculation - that he was pregnant? Lots of long, Morticia hair (needing MUCH Alberto VO-5 and Frizz-Ease).

Or, conversely...Mona, with that flyaway Jewish
Afro, sticking her tongue out as in the famous candid of Einstein? With the same deep, dark Renaissance decollete.

Either way I AM flattered!

justme suggested, something similar, adding:

You do have to get rid of the moustache. Altho' I'm starting to get used to it. I was sure it was Doc Holliday and you were coming out with both barrels hunting down trolls![/b]

Not quite sure who Doc Holliday is (not from the Beverly Hillbillies??), but I WAS starting to feel kind of like I was in drag.

I actually only chose the Mark Twainish one as a stopgap since none of the ones I was looking for seemed to be in the gallery, you know: Joan Baez, Meryl Streep, Nora Ephron, Joan of Arc, Mary Cassat, Anna Freud or Mme dePompadour...something in that general direction.

Blended.

!


Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851154 - 07/15/03 08:54 PM Re: TROLLS
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3202
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I was kind of thinking more along the lines of Audrey Hepburn... [/b]
Clemons doesn't suit you visually. (The depiction is too young to be good of him anyway.)

If you can persuade Frank, take your pick:







(I like No. 2. You could choose Grace Kelly. I like the pic and enjoy looking at it. If we go back and forth I still get to see it even though I gave it up for the more apt chimp and to avoid xx vs. xy confusion.)

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