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#851155 - 07/15/03 08:58 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
posted by apple:
 Quote:
I think Catholic moms just chose not to think about it, "Honey - why don't you become a priest", [/b]
Or for the mother of a budding tranvestite gay' "Honey, haven't you ever dreamed of trying it out as a novitiate?"
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851156 - 07/16/03 08:02 AM Re: TROLLS
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
I thought it was Samuel Clemens - or his sock puppet, Mark Twain. In any case, it's definitely not Zappa. [/b]
I'm sure you're right but Kurt Vonnegut crossed my mind when I first saw that avatar.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#851157 - 07/16/03 08:14 AM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Sam:
So, do you think they are wrong because of what the bible says, or because of your own personal beliefs?[/b]
I never said Jesus would scorn people who had abortions, etc. I said Jesus would agree that abortion is wrong. Sex change operations are wrong. Practicing homosexuality is wrong.

If abortion is murder, and murder is wrong, then abortion is wrong. Our society does not condone murder. There are many things that are prohibited. LP can speak for herself, Sam, but it seems to me from her many posts that she thinks there is nothing wrong with abortion, for example.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#851158 - 07/16/03 08:19 AM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
it's an is[/b] not a sin![/b]
I don't think I'm nuts, and I do think the practice of homosexuality is a sin. I think abortion is sin.
 Quote:
Why do you think God created so many religions? [/b]
He didn't. Man did when man rejected God.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#851159 - 07/16/03 08:36 AM Re: TROLLS
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
I never said Jesus would scorn people who had abortions, etc. I said Jesus would agree that abortion is wrong. Sex change operations are wrong. Practicing homosexuality is wrong.
[/b]
Jesus spent a lot of time with sinners because it is the sick who need a doctor. He forgave sins BUT he never said that the action was not a sin and he concluded with "Go, and sin no more." I think Gryphon is right.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#851160 - 07/16/03 09:10 AM Re: TROLLS
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Gryphon - I'm so sorry to disagree with you. I apologize for calling you nuts.

I think God has been here and among us way before Christ came along. I think he speaks in the movement of the breeze and the warmth of the the sun to those whose vocabulary does not include words like salvation or reconciliation. I think all the Tibetans, the Hindus, the Moslems, and members of all religions are righteous in following the religions their forefathers bequeathed to them. The Christian conception of God is as foreign to them and their conception is to us.

I wish I was articulate enough to effectively convey to you that God is so much more than we could ever hope to define, that things like homosexuality are part of what he is to...but I can't. A strong faith is wonderful thing to have. I envy you and other who possess it. (However, I do feel it is best to be polite in all human transactions, - a "do unto others" sort of thing.)
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#851161 - 07/16/03 10:07 AM Re: TROLLS
Sam_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 239
Loc: NYC
Right on, Apple.

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#851162 - 07/16/03 10:30 AM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
(However, I do feel it is best to be polite in all human transactions, - a "do unto others" sort of thing.) [/b]
Yes, Apple, I agree, too.

Ariel,
Audrey Hepburn would be perfect for you. Wish I would have thought of her. I want to be a movie actress, too!!!! Can you think of one for me?
thanx,
justme

PS please, don't make her a bimbo ;\)
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851163 - 07/16/03 10:32 AM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
I worked a crisis service for a period of time -- and learned that people don't all start with the same slate -- and some are changed over the course of their life.

Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddhist priest, tells the story of a group of young people who were trying to escape Vietnam. They were attacked by pirates. One young girl was assaulted and lept to her death. Others were killed outright.

He read the story and felt...rage towards the pirates...until he understood that were he born and raised as the pirates had been, he might have done as they did. It saddened and frightened him.

I think I may have mentioned a story of a youngster in my town who was hit in the head -- his behavior changed radically afterwards. He became an angry, aggressive person where once he was a very normal kid.

I'm not sure how God will judge these folks (pirates, violent child). We don't all start with the same talents -- or challenges. It is folly to think we possess the wisdom of God -- or that we can judge as He would.

I do such a poor job with my own life, how is it I can cast stones at others who may have more challenging circumstances than I? It is always easier to focus on others' sins than our own. I say this not to condemn anyone - but remind myself as well.

Ken

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#851164 - 07/16/03 10:40 AM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Ken, you speak so eloquently. You're absolutely right in that "who are we to judge?" At this point in my life the most I can do is to do the best I can with the hand God dealt me. That means being an example to my kids as well as to my fellow man.
Today people feel they have to be the best. (i.e. the girl going/not going to Harvard). Isn't it more important to "do our best" rather than "be the best?" Jesus came down from Heaven not only to die for our sins but to show us how we should live our lives. No, I don't think he would condone abortion, but, he would forgive it and pray for the unfortunate.
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851165 - 07/16/03 10:53 AM Re: TROLLS
Sam_dup1 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/12/02
Posts: 239
Loc: NYC
Ken, you're a good soul. Attitude like that keeps us humbled and honest.

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#851166 - 07/16/03 11:06 AM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
A drunk driver plows into a tree. Part of us says "well, he deserved it" - or "thank God he didn't kill someone else."

I've felt that...and then been frightened because who hasn't done something really stupid? I'm grateful I haven't had to pay for that stupidity in such an ultimate way.

I've thought more than once that I wouldn't want to be judged as harshly as I sometimes have judged others. Hard to live up to my own standards, let alone by two simple commandments summarized so eloquently a couple of thousand years ago.

Ken

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#851167 - 07/16/03 01:19 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Ken,
I once worked with a girl who had three abortions. Oh my........ This girl was trash. In some way this girl thought this was easier than birth control. I think she was sick. She was proud of all this and it was no secret. She practically flaunted it. The question is: What would Jesus do? Would he socialize with her?

And how did Jesus handle evil people? I believe there is truly a difference between sick people and evil people. Do you think there's a difference?
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851168 - 07/16/03 01:46 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Sometimes late at night at the crisis service, I would get a call from someone whose life had been turned to a sea of anguish. While I was a pretty good person at helping others, there were times when I could identify with their desire to end their life. It seemed all too reasonable given their situation.

At such times, i knew that my limited life experience and understanding of things was inadequate and I prayed. And words came from who knows where, but they were the right words.

I don't know your heart and mind -- and certainly not the woman in question. When confronted with sick/evil folks, I usually say a prayer of thanks that my life is in a different place. Is there help for her soul? Is that anywhere near her? Can anyone approach her who she feels is judging her? You may wish to pray to know if/how you might touch her heart and soul. There are many folks in need of help...not all will accept it.

I'm certain someone else can answer this better than I.

Ken

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#851169 - 07/16/03 01:51 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
The question is: What would Jesus do? Would he socialize with her?[/b]
No, the question is whether abortion is right or wrong. Is abortion a sin? Why won't you or LP answer that simple question?
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851170 - 07/16/03 01:55 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
The question is: What would Jesus do? Would he socialize with her?[/b]
No, the question is whether abortion is right or wrong. Is abortion a sin? Why won't you or LP answer that simple question? [/b]
Hi Gryphon,

I'm not sure if this is addressed to me or to justme. In any event, yes I think abortion is wrong. The questions that follow that one I'm less good at... Does that help? If we're trying to figure out who the sinners are, I think we don't need to work very hard.

Ken

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#851171 - 07/16/03 02:02 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
Christ hung around with some pretty unsavory characters (e.g. Mary Magdaline)[/b]
Jesus cast out seven demons from Mary Magdalene and she became a follower of Christ. Jesus hung around "unsavory characters" who wanted him around, not those who didn't.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851172 - 07/16/03 02:06 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Ken

The question was directed at justme. It seems that she, LP, and some others have a lot of moral relativism, but that fits with the liberal ideology.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851173 - 07/16/03 02:07 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
The question is: What would Jesus do? Would he socialize with her?[/b]
No, the question is whether abortion is right or wrong. Is abortion a sin? Why won't you or LP answer that simple question? [/b]
Yes, gryphon, abortion is a sin. But, shouldn't one have compassion for the sinner? Shouldn't we be praying for the sinner? Have you ever sinned? If you have were you forgiven?
I don't know this woman I used as an example anymore. I didn't socialize with her, she sickened me. But, I did pray for her. And kluurs is right, I should've been praying for thankfulness that I wasn't her.
Now, I strongly believe there are truly evil people out there. I don't believe every one that has had an abortion is evil. Young 14 year old girls probably are just plain "young and dumb" and under the negative influences of Planned Parenthood.
The woman in question I believe may have been truly evil.
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851174 - 07/16/03 02:09 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Gryphon,

If moral relativism means that God may judge you, me and someone else differently for the same sins, I would say that this is definitely feasible -- and defensible in scripture. Part of the reason, I don't like to get too carried away with judging others -- do it -- just shouldn't.

Ken

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#851175 - 07/16/03 02:22 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
I equate moral relativism with the situational ethics as espoused by Bonhoeffer.

It's a slippery slope, when you can't tell right from wrong, without a frame of reference.

As the song goes, "If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything." What Harlan Howard said about country music in general, certainly appiles to that song, "Country music is four chords, and the truth".
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851176 - 07/16/03 02:25 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
People are confusing taking a stand on right and wrong with "judging one another." We are under no obligation to not differentiate between right and wrong. In fact, we are admonished to do just that. Therefore, for example, we should support the idea of an internet filter on unmonitored computers in public libraries. When my daughter (17 y.o.) was sick with flu-like symptoms earlier this year the physician would not even take her temperature without my permission (I had to call them from work for her to be seen). Yet according to the news last night a 14 year old girl can have an abortion without her parents even knowing about it. This is wrong.

Or so it seems to me.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851177 - 07/16/03 02:25 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
it's an is[/b] not a sin![/b]
I don't think I'm nuts, and I do think the practice of homosexuality is a sin. I think abortion is sin.
 Quote:
Why do you think God created so many religions? [/b]
He didn't. Man did when man rejected God. [/b]
Jesus had a heck of a lot more to see about bankers than he did about gay folks.

Of course, banking is not a sin. It is the "practice of banking."

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#851178 - 07/16/03 02:29 PM Re: TROLLS
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Quoting Gryphon. The question was directed at justme. It seems that she, LP, bcarey, etc. have a lot of moral relativism, but that fits with the liberal ideology.
Hey Gryphon!

I've made exactly one post, non-related to the subject being discussed, about the thread "spining off into the wild blue yonder".

How 'bout leaving me out of the "moral relativism, liberal ideology" stereotyping? :p

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#851179 - 07/16/03 02:37 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
bcarey, sorry if I am ascribing positions to you you don't subscribe to. I didn't realize you thought abortion is wrong, sex change operations are wrong, and the practice of homosexuality is wrong. I have edited your name out of my post. Mea culpa.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851180 - 07/16/03 02:42 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
And when we're judged at the end of our lives -- which may be sooner than we think...will we be judged for where we stood on some of these issues?

Or will God say, Gee Ken you owned a wonderful piano, how did you reconcile that with caring for those folks less fortunate than yourself? Didn't you realize that your life was just an opportunity for you to earn eternal salvation -- and not to savor pleasures at every turn? Was music an idol that was worshipped? A lifetime is short compared to eternity.

Finally, liberal folks can play the same cards, why do tax cuts for the wealthiest take precidence over care for the sick and crippled? Is this something Christ would advocate?

Ken

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#851181 - 07/16/03 02:50 PM Re: TROLLS
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Quoting Gryphon. I didn't realize you thought abortion is wrong, sex change operations are wrong, and the practice of homosexuality is wrong.
I didn't say that either. ;\)

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#851182 - 07/16/03 02:51 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Kluurs stated:
 Quote:
And when we're judged at the end of our lives -- which may be sooner than we think...will we be judged for where we stood on some of these issues?

Yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Is not sin an abomination to the Lord? And is not so as a man thinks, the same as he does?
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851183 - 07/16/03 02:52 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
I equate moral relativism with the situational ethics as espoused by Bonhoeffer.

It's a slippery slope, when you can't tell right from wrong, without a frame of reference.

[/b]
Me, too. Bonhoeffer had great respect for the Roman Catholic church. Actually, many tried to discredit him for his close ties to Catholicism.

Yes, gryphon, 14 year old girls should not be having abortions. No one should. But, that same 14 year old girl has the right to be graced with forgiveness.
BTW, I'm very pro-life even in cases of incest and rape. I find it comical ;\) you find me liberal. I guess I'm changing.
I find it admirable that you have such moral integrity. And even more admirable that from your posts that you do your best to practice it. I'm not being facetious when I say this.
sincerely,
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851184 - 07/16/03 03:06 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
justme, again I apologize. It appears I am lumping people into the LP category unfairly, and you are all being offended. Entirely understandable. I thought bcarey was a liberal and from some of your previous posts, you were, too.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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