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#851185 - 07/16/03 03:07 PM Re: TROLLS
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


It's a slippery slope, when you can't tell right from wrong, without a frame of reference.

[/b]
But don't you know you're supposed to be going up? Have you ever been confronted with a moral dilema where it was difficult to not immediately determine what was right and what was wrong? There are many examples I'm sure, but how often do they actually occur?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#851186 - 07/16/03 03:14 PM Re: TROLLS
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Ken

The question was directed at justme. It seems that she, LP, and some others have a lot of moral relativism, but that fits with the liberal ideology. [/b]
Jesus and his desciples were walking through a wheat field on the Sabbath. Under the law, it was wrong to harvest on the Sabbath and this was strictly interpreted to mean even the most minute type of harvesting.

His desciples were hungry and took some of the grain from the stalks and ate it. Those who saw the letter of the law as the most important part of morality condemned Jesus and His deciples for having broken the Sabbath.

Jesus answered with some questions of his own. Suppose you had a sheep fall in a deep hole on the Sabboth. The law says that anything other than the slightest care for animals was work. But is it not proper to work in order to bring the sheep out? He gave a couple of other such examples. He ended by saying that the Sabbath as made for man, not man for the Sabbath. In other words, the legitimate needs of people is more important than the law.

Later, when he was on trial, one of the accusations against Jesus was that he broke the Sabbath. This incident was used as evidence. He did not adhere to the letter of the law. It is part of the reason they found him guilty.

Jesus, of course, made no answer to this charge during His trial seeing no reason to defend His actions because He knew they were right and correct and moral.

If the law is the ultimate arbiter (i.e. an action is sinful because Scripture says it is so) then Jesus is a moral relativist.

If however, compassion and understanding and other considerations are part of moral judgements, then Jesus adhered to the spirit of the law even as he broke the letter of it.

Jesus therefore was either a moral relativst or he understood the higher nature of morality that extends beyond blind adherence to the law.

Either way, Christians who see beyond the letter of the law seem to be in very good company.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#851187 - 07/16/03 03:15 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
justme, again I apologize. It appears I am lumping people into the LP category unfairly, and you are all being offended. Entirely understandable. I thought bcarey was a liberal and from some of your previous posts, you were, too. [/b]
It's okay... I wonder what I said tho' to give you that impression. It may have to do with my son, and as you know I have to walk on eggshells with that issue. It's a cross I'll have to bear. Pray for us.
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851188 - 07/16/03 03:23 PM Re: TROLLS
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3202
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
The question is: What would Jesus do? [/b]
He's too busy to answer today. According to CNN, he's busy trying to decide between and SUV an a fuel-efficient hybrid. \:D

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#851189 - 07/16/03 03:31 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
Obeying "the law?" Show me where God says you can only walk a certain amount of steps on the Sabbath, or where your Hebrew sand cruisers can only have a minimum amount of nails in them or else walking in them is considered doing work, or some of the examples you gave. I don't believe God defined those things, man did. Jesus disagreed with the Pharisee's interpretation of the scriptures, He didn't disagree with the scriptures. Jesus never disagreed with the scriptures. Jesus wasn't a moral relativist and didn't sin when he felt like it because of some higher purpose that condoned sin if the ends "justified" it.

Morals come from a standard of right and wrong, God's standard, not man's.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851190 - 07/16/03 03:35 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
I wonder what I said tho' to give you that impression. [/b]
I don't know. Did you ever say disparaging things about Bush 43? \:D
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851191 - 07/16/03 03:36 PM Re: TROLLS
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:

Didn't you realize that your life was just an opportunity for you to earn eternal salvation [/b]
You cannot earn salvation. That is the whole point. No matter how good you are, no matter what good things you do, no matter how perfectly you have led your life, you cannot earn your own salvation. It is a free gift. You simply have to accept it. In John 14:6, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me". A man's attempt to save himself through doing good is in vain.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#851192 - 07/16/03 03:37 PM Re: TROLLS
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
Obeying "the law?" Show me where God says you can only walk a certain amount of steps on the Sabbath, or where your Hebrew sand cruisers can only have a minimum amount of nails in them or walking in them is considered doing work, or some of the examples you gave? I don't believe God defined those things, man did. Jesus disagreed with the Pharisee's interpretation of the scriptures, He didn't disagree with the scriptures. Jesus never disagreed with the scriptures. Jesus wasn't a moral relativist and didn't sin when he felt like it because of some higher purpose that condoned sin if the ends "justified" it.

Morals come from a standard of right and wrong, God's standard, not man's. [/b]
Thank you, Gryphon. You have just answered your own objection.

It is possible to interpret Scripture differently and neither sin or be condemned for it.

The standards are what are important -- not the letter of the law. It is not so important how one verse or another is interpreted by fallible humans about a specific action.

As you say, it is far more important to learn the standards -- the overriding moral principles God wants to teach -- then it is to find a verse supposedly establishing a rule here or there and see that verse as the ultimate determinant of what is right or wrong.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#851193 - 07/16/03 04:04 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
It is possible to interpret Scripture differently and neither sin or be condemned for it.[/b]
I don't disagree that not all Christians see everything exactly the same, but these are usually, for lack of a better term, small things, not large matters of faith. And clearly one cannot blindly assert something that the scriptures clearly doesn't say and justify it by saying, "That's the way I read it." Think of some egregious example such as child molestation. Now as for not being held accountable, I cannot agree with that. We will still be held accountable for everything we do. However, we are not condemned if what God sees is Jesus' blood.
 Quote:
The standards are what are important -- not the letter of the law. [/b]
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. Romans 3:20

I fail to see how anything you've stated justifies legal abortions and some of the other things which, by previous posts, you seem to agree with.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851194 - 07/16/03 04:14 PM Re: TROLLS
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:

I fail to see how anything you've stated justifies legal abortions and some of the other things which, by previous posts, you seem to agree with. [/b]
I fail to see how the legality of abortion is a moral issue at all. It is simply a legal issue. Making abortion legal or illegal does not confer a moral basis on abortion at all.

The morality comes in the act of abortion itself. And as you said, specific Scriptural admonitions can be broken if there is a higher standard involved.

Since neither you nor I can see into someone's heart, much less their soul, it is not possible for either of us to know if a person has acted morally or not if they have had or participate in an abortion.

But since God can see into that person's heart, it is best to leave the judgement about the right or wrong of a person's personal moral decisions to God.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#851195 - 07/16/03 04:15 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
 Quote:
Originally posted by Larry:
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:

Didn't you realize that your life was just an opportunity for you to earn eternal salvation [/b]
You cannot earn salvation. That is the whole point. No matter how good you are, no matter what good things you do, no matter how perfectly you have led your life, you cannot earn your own salvation. It is a free gift. You simply have to accept it. In John 14:6, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except by me". A man's attempt to save himself through doing good is in vain. [/b]
Right you are Larry. I know better and should have used better wording. In fact, it is the ultimate hubris to think that any person can earn salvation.

At the same time, the "sin no more" injunction is there. Paul speaks to this a bit -- the message is not to "eat drink and be merry" - until five minutes before death at which point we cry out to the Lord for forgiveness and gain salvation. Or, if I belong to the xyz congregation, I'm saved.

I guess part of the reason I got into this is that I hear no discussion of the big sins that have plagued humanity since its inception.. greed, sloth, lust, envy, anger, gluttony and pride. I see a lot of litmus test discussions of where do you stand on ....?

While I don't disagree with folks that these issues are important, I'm not sure we do ourselves or others as much good as we might like by such a sharp focus on them to the exclusion of the most basic of Christ's teachings - worship of the Lord -- love and respect of one's neighbor.

If these issues cause any of you trouble with your faith and communion with God and need to resolve them, I apologize for my interference.


Ken

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#851196 - 07/16/03 04:23 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
I fail to see how the legality of abortion is a moral issue at all. It is simply a legal issue. [/b]
You must have twisted yourself up in a pretzel to justify this entire post. Of course it's a moral issue. Murder is a moral issue. By your logic everything should be legal, and then God would just judge the person. Not only is this *bad* but I believe it to be very, very wrong!
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851197 - 07/16/03 04:25 PM Re: TROLLS
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
I don't disagree that not all Christians see everything exactly the same, but these are usually, for lack of a better term, small things, not large matters of faith. [/b]
Actually, it is quite often very MAJOR things. Ask Martin Luthor or John Calvin whether their disagreements with Rome were minor or major.

Might I suggest that for Catholics, their definition of the Eucharist is pivotal to their faith. Most Protestants have a very different definition.

Many Christians, if not most, will argue that Christ rose bodily from the dead. Pretty important issue. There are others, though, who do not believe His body actually rose and that the story is metphorical of a spiritual truth.

Most Christians believe in the Virgin Birth. Another pretty basic issue for Christians. But there are many Christians who do not believe in the Virgin birth.

Many Christians place great stock in the prophesies of Daniel and in the Book of Revelations and base much of their eschatology on them. Others see them as metaphors that have no literal meaning.

And need I even mention that some Christians believe in a literal intepretation of Scripture as the word of God, while many others aren't even close to seeing this as the word of God.

If Christians are so divided on such basic and pivotal issues as these, they can be divided on much less important issues and remain faithful to their Faith.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#851198 - 07/16/03 04:28 PM Re: TROLLS
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
You must have twisted yourself up in a pretzel to justify this entire post. Of course it's a moral issue. Murder is a moral issue. By your logic everything should be legal, and then God would just judge the person. Not only is this *bad* but I believe it to be very, very wrong! [/b]
Society can make whatever it wants legal or illegal. It should do so for the proper and expedient running of the society. But no matter what a society decides is legal does not effect the morality of that action at all.

Legality does not equal morality. Morality does not equal legality.

Let society judge legality. Let God judge morality. "Render unto Caesar...." as Jesus said.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#851199 - 07/16/03 04:30 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
I stand by my original statement. Christians can differ on minor points but not major points of faith.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851200 - 07/16/03 05:31 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
You can stand by what you like. Other Christians (including a goodly number of the Founding Fathers) believed (and still believe) otherwise.

What's your point?

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#851201 - 07/16/03 05:33 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:

]Yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Is not sin an abomination to the Lord? And is not so as a man thinks, the same as he does? [/b]
Is this the Jimmy Carter School of Theology?

(just imagine all those people who "think like bankers"!)

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#851202 - 07/16/03 05:36 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Cancelled my Playboy right after that. Was always afraid JC wouldn't approve (Jimmy Carter, the other JC). ;\)

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#851203 - 07/16/03 05:38 PM Re: TROLLS
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
Many Christians, if not most, will argue that Christ rose bodily from the dead. Pretty important issue. There are others, though, who do not believe His body actually rose and that the story is metphorical of a spiritual truth.[/b]
No, there are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't believe in the resurrection, but a Christian doesn't doubt it one second.

 Quote:
Most Christians believe in the Virgin Birth. Another pretty basic issue for Christians. But there are many Christians who do not believe in the Virgin birth.[/b]
No, again - there are people who *call* themselves Christians who do not believe that, but a Christian does not doubt this one second.

 Quote:
some Christians believe in a literal intepretation of Scripture as the word of God, while many others aren't even close to seeing this as the word of God.[/b]
Wrong again. There are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't think the Bible is the word of God, but a Christian doesn't doubt it for a second.


 Quote:
If Christians are so divided on such basic and pivotal issues as these, they can be divided on much less important issues and remain faithful to their Faith. [/b]
Christians aren't divided on these issues. Either Jesus was who he said he was, or it is all nothing more than a big lie, and none of it matters. Just because some people want to redefine Christ and reduce him to nothing more than a good man doesn't make them right. Those who buy into this kind of theology have every right to do so if that is what they want to believe, but they do not have the right to continue to call themselves Christians. They might consider themselves "enlightened", but to a Christian, they are misguided.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#851204 - 07/16/03 05:55 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Jolly asked:
 Quote:
And is not so as a man thinks, the same as he does?
[/b] No! That's what will-power is all about. I can think of catchy quotes from many very different sources on this subject (and I'll bet you can too if you put your mind to it).

What else is resisting temptation?. If you don't feel tempted, you don't get any brownie points. Oh, the heck with it, here's one I like (don't remember who said it, and it's a paraphrase anyhow):

"I guess I have one up on George Washington. When he was asked about the cherry tree, he said 'I cannot tell a lie' Well, I can tell lies, and I often very much want to.. However, I choose not to."

Of course the actual cherry tree anecdote about George is apocryphal. The distinction is still a good one. Jolly, surely with all your military fascination, you’ve heard the saying (Patton? anyhow paraphrased again): "Courage doesn't mean not feeling fear. It means going right ahead and doing what you have to do, even though you're scared witless [rhyming word]."

This is tangentially related to a gripe I have with Christianity - well, some interpretations of it, anyhow. An emphasis on Faith (and internal states) above Action, the choices we make. I believe we're not responsible for either thoughts or feelings, but as for what we do - that's another story! Who can control salivating over a chocolate ice-cream sundae when we’re on a diet? It’s walking away from the dessert buffet (or not) that makes the difference!

And even then, well...Let's just say, I'm not one of those who could pick up the first stone in condemning somebody else - not to hell or death by stoning anyhow.

I can't help feeling whatever your values, that if Christ were around now, he'd be spending a lot
more time "witnessing" goodness than dotting the i's and crossing the t's (in Aramaic, of course) on precisely what constitutes evil-doing. And I doubt he'd be especially proud of any of his purported followers, who focus on that kind of lawyerly approach to his teachings instead of carrying them out. When he said. “Follow me”, he did not say, “and be sure to bring your quills and parchment to take down all the sinning you observe, so we don’t miss anyone.”
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851205 - 07/16/03 05:55 PM Re: TROLLS
xuser Offline
Full Member

Registered: 04/26/03
Posts: 82
Loc: Zug, Switzerland
In my school days I learned it the other way round:

A true christian is allowed to have doubts (even on serious matters and more than only a second). But he conquers them.

Do you agree, Larry?

xuser

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#851206 - 07/16/03 05:59 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Albert Schweitzer, the famous theologan, humanitarian and musician wrote "Quest for the Historical Jesus." He'd say that Larry's definition is a "liberal" one - in that it romanticizes the historical Jesus. He'd say that a more conservative viewpoint is frankly focused along the lines of what LP has suggested. Actually, there are a lot more Christian scholars than one might imagine who believe these things.

Ken

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#851207 - 07/16/03 06:07 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by xuser:
In my school days I learned it the other way round:

A true christian is allowed to have doubts (even on serious matters and more than only a second). But he conquers them.

Do you agree, Larry?

xuser [/b]
I was taught there cannot be faith without doubt.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851208 - 07/16/03 06:07 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Guess all those Founding Father-types weren't Christian after all (and after I spent all that energy trying to show that they were!)

Actually, if Larry were to throw out all those Christians who aren't, it would become clear very quickly that Islam is by far the largest AND fastest growing religion in the world. (and after what I've read here, maybe for good reason! ;\) )

But my denomination goes back a goodly ways, and we decide for ourselves how to define ourselves, thank you, and don't require your assistance. But if it really bugs you so much, and you are so insecure, there are plenty of other religions out there to harrass.

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#851209 - 07/16/03 06:11 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
gryphon posted:
 Quote:
I stand by my original statement. Christians can differ on minor points but not major points of faith. [/b]
followed by Larry:
 Quote:
No, there are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't believe in the resurrection, but a Christian doesn't doubt it one second.
***
No, again - there are people who *call* themselves Christians who do not believe that [the Virgin Birth], but a Christian does not doubt this one second.
***
Wrong again. There are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't think the Bible is the word of God, but a Christian doesn't doubt it for a second.
***
Christians aren't divided on these issues. Either Jesus was who he said he was, or it is all nothing more than a big lie, and none of it matters... they do not have the right to continue to call themselves Christians. [/b]
You guys can believe in whatever you believe to the bottom of your hearts and souls (Jolly too) - and I do not doubt your convictions in the slightest.

However, I do think you've painted yourselves into a corner about whether the majority of the Founding Fathers were "Christian"!

Respectfully,

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851210 - 07/16/03 06:11 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Schlockpuppet wrote:
 Quote:
Many Christians, if not most, will argue that Christ rose bodily from the dead. Pretty important issue. There are others, though, who do not believe His body actually rose and that the story is metphorical of a spiritual truth.
Larry beat me to it. Anyone who does not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is not Christian. Something else, perhaps, but not Christian, since it is the definitive act that separates Christianity from any other religion.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851211 - 07/16/03 06:14 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Jolly added:
 Quote:
Anyone who does not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is not Christian. Something else, perhaps, but not Christian, since it is the definitive act that separates Christianity from any other religion. [/b]
OK, Jolly, now you're in the same corner. You guys can't have it both ways.

A.
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851212 - 07/16/03 06:16 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Ariel wrote:
 Quote:
However, I do think you've painted yourselves into a corner about whether the majority of the Founding Fathers were "Christian"!
And that corner would be...?
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#851213 - 07/16/03 06:28 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
And back to thoughts...

Matthew 5
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Acts 8
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
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#851214 - 07/16/03 06:43 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Question from Mr. Jolly:
 Quote:
And that corner would be...? [/b]
The corner of Either and Or Street.

A.
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If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
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