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Right you are Larry. I know better and should have used better wording. In fact, it is the ultimate hubris to think that any person can earn salvation.

At the same time, the "sin no more" injunction is there. Paul speaks to this a bit -- the message is not to "eat drink and be merry" - until five minutes before death at which point we cry out to the Lord for forgiveness and gain salvation. Or, if I belong to the xyz congregation, I'm saved.

I guess part of the reason I got into this is that I hear no discussion of the big sins that have plagued humanity since its inception.. greed, sloth, lust, envy, anger, gluttony and pride. I see a lot of litmus test discussions of where do you stand on ....?

While I don't disagree with folks that these issues are important, I'm not sure we do ourselves or others as much good as we might like by such a sharp focus on them to the exclusion of the most basic of Christ's teachings - worship of the Lord -- love and respect of one's neighbor.

If these issues cause any of you trouble with your faith and communion with God and need to resolve them, I apologize for my interference.


Ken

You must have twisted yourself up in a pretzel to justify this entire post. Of course it's a moral issue. Murder is a moral issue. By your logic everything should be legal, and then God would just judge the person. Not only is this *bad* but I believe it to be very, very wrong!

Actually, it is quite often very MAJOR things. Ask Martin Luthor or John Calvin whether their disagreements with Rome were minor or major.

Might I suggest that for Catholics, their definition of the Eucharist is pivotal to their faith. Most Protestants have a very different definition.

Many Christians, if not most, will argue that Christ rose bodily from the dead. Pretty important issue. There are others, though, who do not believe His body actually rose and that the story is metphorical of a spiritual truth.

Most Christians believe in the Virgin Birth. Another pretty basic issue for Christians. But there are many Christians who do not believe in the Virgin birth.

Many Christians place great stock in the prophesies of Daniel and in the Book of Revelations and base much of their eschatology on them. Others see them as metaphors that have no literal meaning.

And need I even mention that some Christians believe in a literal intepretation of Scripture as the word of God, while many others aren't even close to seeing this as the word of God.

If Christians are so divided on such basic and pivotal issues as these, they can be divided on much less important issues and remain faithful to their Faith.

Society can make whatever it wants legal or illegal. It should do so for the proper and expedient running of the society. But no matter what a society decides is legal does not effect the morality of that action at all.

Legality does not equal morality. Morality does not equal legality.

Let society judge legality. Let God judge morality. "Render unto Caesar...." as Jesus said.

I stand by my original statement. Christians can differ on minor points but not major points of faith.

You can stand by what you like. Other Christians (including a goodly number of the Founding Fathers) believed (and still believe) otherwise.

What's your point?

Is this the Jimmy Carter School of Theology?

(just imagine all those people who "think like bankers"!)

Cancelled my Playboy right after that. Was always afraid JC wouldn't approve (Jimmy Carter, the other JC).

No, there are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't believe in the resurrection, but a Christian doesn't doubt it one second.

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Most Christians believe in the Virgin Birth. Another pretty basic issue for Christians. But there are many Christians who do not believe in the Virgin birth.

No, again - there are people who *call* themselves Christians who do not believe that, but a Christian does not doubt this one second.

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some Christians believe in a literal intepretation of Scripture as the word of God, while many others aren't even close to seeing this as the word of God.

Wrong again. There are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't think the Bible is the word of God, but a Christian doesn't doubt it for a second.

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If Christians are so divided on such basic and pivotal issues as these, they can be divided on much less important issues and remain faithful to their Faith.

Christians aren't divided on these issues. Either Jesus was who he said he was, or it is all nothing more than a big lie, and none of it matters. Just because some people want to redefine Christ and reduce him to nothing more than a good man doesn't make them right. Those who buy into this kind of theology have every right to do so if that is what they want to believe, but they do not have the right to continue to call themselves Christians. They might consider themselves "enlightened", but to a Christian, they are misguided.

Jolly asked: No! That's what will-power is all about. I can think of catchy quotes from many very different sources on this subject (and I'll bet you can too if you put your mind to it).

What else is resisting temptation?. If you don't feel tempted, you don't get any brownie points. Oh, the heck with it, here's one I like (don't remember who said it, and it's a paraphrase anyhow):

"I guess I have one up on George Washington. When he was asked about the cherry tree, he said 'I cannot tell a lie' Well, I can tell lies, and I often very much want to.. However, I choose not to."

Of course the actual cherry tree anecdote about George is apocryphal. The distinction is still a good one. Jolly, surely with all your military fascination, you’ve heard the saying (Patton? anyhow paraphrased again): "Courage doesn't mean not feeling fear. It means going right ahead and doing what you have to do, even though you're scared witless [rhyming word]."

This is tangentially related to a gripe I have with Christianity - well, some interpretations of it, anyhow. An emphasis on Faith (and internal states) above Action, the choices we make. I believe we're not responsible for either thoughts or feelings, but as for what we do - that's another story! Who can control salivating over a chocolate ice-cream sundae when we’re on a diet? It’s walking away from the dessert buffet (or not) that makes the difference!

And even then, well...Let's just say, I'm not one of those who could pick up the first stone in condemning somebody else - not to heck or death by stoning anyhow.

I can't help feeling whatever your values, that if Christ were around now, he'd be spending a lot
more time "witnessing" goodness than dotting the i's and crossing the t's (in Aramaic, of course) on precisely what constitutes evil-doing. And I doubt he'd be especially proud of any of his purported followers, who focus on that kind of lawyerly approach to his teachings instead of carrying them out. When he said. “Follow me”, he did not say, “and be sure to bring your quills and parchment to take down all the sinning you observe, so we don’t miss anyone.”

In my school days I learned it the other way round:

A true christian is allowed to have doubts (even on serious matters and more than only a second). But he conquers them.

Do you agree, Larry?

xuser

Albert Schweitzer, the famous theologan, humanitarian and musician wrote "Quest for the Historical Jesus." He'd say that Larry's definition is a "liberal" one - in that it romanticizes the historical Jesus. He'd say that a more conservative viewpoint is frankly focused along the lines of what LP has suggested. Actually, there are a lot more Christian scholars than one might imagine who believe these things.

Ken

I was taught there cannot be faith without doubt.

Guess all those Founding Father-types weren't Christian after all (and after I spent all that energy trying to show that they were!)

Actually, if Larry were to throw out all those Christians who aren't, it would become clear very quickly that Islam is by far the largest AND fastest growing religion in the world. (and after what I've read here, maybe for good reason! )

But my denomination goes back a goodly ways, and we decide for ourselves how to define ourselves, thank you, and don't require your assistance. But if it really bugs you so much, and you are so insecure, there are plenty of other religions out there to harrass.

gryphon posted:

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I stand by my original statement. Christians can differ on minor points but not major points of faith.

followed by Larry:

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No, there are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't believe in the resurrection, but a Christian doesn't doubt it one second.
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No, again - there are people who *call* themselves Christians who do not believe that [the Virgin Birth], but a Christian does not doubt this one second.
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Wrong again. There are people who *call* themselves Christians who don't think the Bible is the word of God, but a Christian doesn't doubt it for a second.
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Christians aren't divided on these issues. Either Jesus was who he said he was, or it is all nothing more than a big lie, and none of it matters... they do not have the right to continue to call themselves Christians.

You guys can believe in whatever you believe to the bottom of your hearts and souls (Jolly too) - and I do not doubt your convictions in the slightest.

However, I do think you've painted yourselves into a corner about whether the majority of the Founding Fathers were "Christian"!

Respectfully,

Ariel

Schlockpuppet wrote: Larry beat me to it. Anyone who does not believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus is not Christian. Something else, perhaps, but not Christian, since it is the definitive act that separates Christianity from any other religion.

Jolly added: OK, Jolly, now you're in the same corner. You guys can't have it both ways.

A.

Ariel wrote: And that corner would be...?

And back to thoughts...

Matthew 5
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into heck.

Acts 8
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.

Question from Mr. Jolly: The corner of Either and Or Street.

A.