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#851245 - 07/17/03 12:49 PM Re: TROLLS
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
I am going to return this discussion briefly to Ariel's response about salvation.

Ariel, that was beautifully written and blends well with my own view of things -- even if we might disagree on how we got there or the basis upon which we build our beliefs. But then, more than once I have found that those who work to understand and make their Judaism a practical part of their lives and those who do the same with their Christianity are often in agreement on so much of life philosophy.

May I copy it, save it and use it in the future (not on here -- only away form this Board) when discussing such things with others? It provides much richness for earnest and sincere discussion.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#851246 - 07/17/03 12:57 PM Re: TROLLS
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
Why did Paul talk about homosexuality but Jesus didn't? Here's a wild conjecture. Jesus came to the Jews who remembered what God did to Sodom. Thus, homosexuality was not an open problem in the areas Jesus traveled. Paul, on the other hand, was dealing with Corinthians and others of their ilk (note: not Larry's ilk) where homosexuality was open and accepted. Each dealt with the sins of the society in which they taught.

Again, this is just a hypothesis based on little to no historic knowledge of the social mores. (I'm becoming a liberal, i.e., I'm not bothered by facts. \:D \:D )
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#851247 - 07/17/03 12:59 PM Re: TROLLS
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Have I understood well ? I am not dreaming, am I ?

Some in this Coffee Room think that Jesus hated homosexuals (and womanizers and adulterers, even in thought) and some think that Jesus hated bankers or people who took an insurance policy or who tried to educate their children to help them cope better with tomorrow.

What did Jesus think of gay bankers ?

To try and take the Gospels at face value and see in it rules to go to Heaven would probably make the guy ROFL.

To give lectures about putting your money in a bank or granting loans with interest or being attracted by a person of the same sex based on what some (Jewish) people wrote 2000 years ago seems a bit surrealistic.

Why don't we think for ourselves and define our personal ethic on our right to pursue our happiness and our will to respect the way people lead their lives (provided they do not commit crimes or felonies by hurting other people or their environment) ?

Frankly, to quote Paul or one of the evangelists as a guide to go to heaven looks like an taking people for suckers.

True believers of communism seem very rare in the West. True worshippers of nazism or fascism are still a few. There seem to be a lot of people who feel the need to find a guidance for their lives (and the lives of others) in "revelation".

It is OK. One has to be tolerant.
People believe something. OK, OK. Who am I to say what somebody should believe.

I am reading currently a book on "Can Islam be reformed" on several thinkers who tried to adapt Islam to modernity.

Looks like this book is about Paul and Jesus as well.

The real question for those who believe existence is important is : should we have hope for the future ? Do we want to live and fight, doubt, lose, win, despair, start in a new way, do we really want to do that for the shere joy of it ?

Please : no threats, no promises.
Just let's life do its work.

God loves it when we just sort things out.

I think.
\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#851248 - 07/17/03 01:05 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Renauda,

Do I run from questions? Do I tend to turn away from heat? Some of us work for a living, and cannot give instataneous responses, so I find your post somewhat silly.

As to Jesus' attitude towards money, I do not feel that Jesus had the communistic attitude that shantinik espouses. Covet money - no. Give to others - yes. Serve others - yes.

The root of eveil is the love of money, not money itself. Money is not an evil of itself.

1 Timothy 6
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

But no, I am not of the opinion that we need to throw whatever we have away, and prepare for the End time tomorrow.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851249 - 07/17/03 01:08 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Tick-tock Renauda, baby - two can play this game.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851250 - 07/17/03 01:27 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Renauda,

As to Jesus' attitude towards money, I do not feel that Jesus had the communistic attitude that shantinik espouses. Covet money - no. Give to others - yes. Serve others - yes.

The root of eveil is the love of money, not money itself. Money is not an evil of itself.

1 Timothy 6
9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

But no, I am not of the opinion that we need to throw whatever we have away, and prepare for the End time tomorrow. [/b]
Whatsamatter? Still not willing to quote Jesus? Did he say "give to the poor" or "Sell or you have and give it to the poor?" Did he say, "Don't covet money, but keep a nice fat bank account, and invest in offshore oil futures" or lay up no store against the morrow? Did he say it was easier for the rich to get through the (camel's gate) needle if they didn't "love their money", only possessed it? Did he check to see in advance which of the "moneychangers" "loved" money, and which didn't?

But I'm glad to see that your response is based on "feeling" rather than what Jesus actually had to say. That's not too different to the way I respond to Paul (though I hold Jesus' teachings in much higher regard. Are we now reduced to Timothy?)

But going further -- let's presume (against all the textual evidence of what Jesus said) that your "feeling" is correct. You still haven't explained why not ONCE in more than a year have you cited Jesus in talking about corporate capitalism, greed, "covetousness", and their lack of service toward their own employees (no less anyone else?) Does it simply not apply? Why the obsession with Paul and gay folks, about which Jesus didn't seem to care a wit?

Jesus didn't say "throw everything away". He told you what to do with it.

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#851251 - 07/17/03 01:31 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Allright Shant,

You tell me what Jesus had to say about corporations, and those "evil monsters" that run them.

As for the above ascribed passage, will you please expain to the rest of the group why Timothy wrote those words?
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851252 - 07/17/03 01:48 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
I think you're quite capable of reading the book you love. YOU tell us what Jesus had to say about wealth, its acquisition, and its holding.

Why did Timothy say what he did? He, like Paul, had a problem. The end time hadn't come (I note that YOU referred to the end time.) And so, like Paul, he was faced with the problem of organizing a community. The command to leave one's father and mother was not particularly helpful to one organizing families. All kinds of rich folks were not ready to follow Jesus' very clear and unequivocal commands and join the community whereby all shared in common. They weren't going to "throw whatever we have away" (YOUR words, a perversion of what Jesus actually said; is it your "covetousness" showing? ;\) Better start measuring that needle hole again. :p ). But they had their own uses.

Whatever. None of this has anything to do with what Jesus SAID. I'm looking forward to your citations of Jesus in the Wal-Mart discussion.

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#851253 - 07/17/03 02:30 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
I went back and read those passages.

Jesus condemned those who coveted, those who hoarded, those who would not spend money to help their fellow man.

Show me where he said money was evil.

Show me where he said commerce was evil. In fact, he praised commerce, and the acquisition of wealth in one sense, through the parable of the talents. If the Lord thought money was so evil, would not the purpose of that parable been to show how the servant could take his talent, and give alms to the poor?

Shant wrote:
 Quote:
Why did Timothy say what he did?
And you gave a standard textbook answer - as long as you don't take into account that Christians were becoming a burden to the very people they were trying to convert.

You are doing your best to convert Christianity into communism.

Keep trying, bitter one. :p
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851254 - 07/17/03 02:31 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Tick-tock, renauda.
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851255 - 07/17/03 03:11 PM Re: TROLLS
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
If I am not mistaken Jesus rallied against people's obsession with the materialism in general. Bankers, moneylenders, etc. were the real life examples he used to show how the religion of the time had become polluted through material wealth and led astray away from its spiritual foundation. Even you must agree that Jesus had difficulty with the Phariseeic cult of the time. That I know is well recorded in Luke, John, Mark and Mathew. Yet, I cannot quote scripture here since I do not have the Good Book bucked out to the minute extent you do. Paul on the other hand, as Shantinik has repeatedly tried to point out, adds the moral lessons to the message of Jesus' recorded teachings. As such I do not see anyone here having a problem with Christ's message but rather Paul's addendums on morality. All I am doing is questioning whether people are mixing Paul's own teachings with the original message. If so, is not reasonable then to assume that to be a true "Christian" one must accept that Paul was infallable in spititual matters?

As to your observation of no scriptural reference of Jesus condeming or condoning corporations; in all sincerity, I find the statement absurd. Corporations didn't exist in antiquity. Commerce existed but it was nothing like what we have come to know as a modern day capitalism. Commerce until the High Middle Ages with the deveopment of the Italian banks was a pretty basic exchange of goods and services. Certainly there was trade between kingdoms but it often involved more barter than the actual exchange of gold and silver specie.

Likewise, no effort is being made by me or anyone else for that matter, to transform Christainity into some sort of "communist" message. There are however some believers who do however adhere to those aspects of Christ's teachings- they are called Franciscans, Amish, and Hutterites to name a few. Do they know something that none of us here do?
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#851256 - 07/17/03 03:39 PM Re: TROLLS
Dwain Lee Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 2419
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
I am the President of the United States.

In fact, I've known for quite a few years now that I am the President of the United States. It is something that I not only felt, but knew in my bones to be absolute fact.

Some people have tried to deny that I am the President, by making claims that there are specific written standards within the Constitution, not to mention actual elections, to determine just who can be called the President of the United States. But their attitudes only reflect an irritation over the fact that I know that I'm the President, and that their opinions are misguided. There are many people, living and dead, who have claimed to be the President of the United States, and who have not met these people's interpretations of those written criteria.

Regardless of those differing interpretations, I know that I am the President. I will always know it. And I will die knowing that I am the President, and after I die no one will be able to argue with me any further about my knowledge that I am the President, much to their annoyance and consternation. I will have died secure in my knowledge.

Obviously then, I am the President of the United States.

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#851257 - 07/17/03 03:45 PM Re: TROLLS
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:


I am the President of the United States.

[/b]
Congratulations Dwain, I am glad to see an intelligent "Trotskyite" at the helm... now what are you going to do about the CEO's and Wal-Marts of the nation? \:D
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#851258 - 07/17/03 03:54 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
to be a true "Christian" one must accept that Paul was infallable in spititual matters? [/b]
I believe the Bible is 100% God's word. God says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1 God is infallable, hence the Bible is infallable.

To be a Christian you must only accept God's gift. It's as simple as that. Isn't that great?

And Dwain, you did that so well. \:D
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851259 - 07/17/03 04:00 PM Re: TROLLS
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
Then it stands to reason that God is perfect and creation must therefore also be perfect as He could not create imperfection.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#851260 - 07/17/03 04:04 PM Re: TROLLS
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Dwain Lee,

Vive le President des Etats-Unis d'Amérique !

\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#851261 - 07/17/03 04:08 PM Re: TROLLS
DT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1478
Loc: Illinois
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
Then it stands to reason that God is perfect and creation must therefore also be perfect as He could not create imperfection. [/b]
Why not? I don't see how that follows.
_________________________
Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell...

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#851262 - 07/17/03 04:08 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Ok Renauda, the response was worth waiting for, although I still think the "tick-tock" comment was silly.

As to your response, and probably where the actual problem lies: I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, therefore, Paul's writings carry that authority with them. It is not that they are to be given precedence over the words of Jesus, but they are to be considered as having the authority of God behind them.

If it says it's wrong, it's wrong, and I feel it would be foolish to argue with a clearly written statement, hence the quotation earlier in the thread. If it says Jesus was born of a virgin, I'm not going to tie myself into knots trying to explain how that could happen within my mortal frame of reference. If it says that Christ rose bodily on the third day, I'm not hunting in the corners to try to figure out whether the risen Christ was flesh, or Spirit, for Thomas checked that one out for me.

All I have to do is believe. And do the best I can to live a better life, inspired by the Christ, and trying to walk in his footsteps.

The problem is that I, and every other person before me, will fall far short of that goal. As the old folks say, though, nothing beats a fail, but a try.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851263 - 07/17/03 04:12 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
I went back and read those passages.

Jesus condemned those who coveted, those who hoarded, those who would not spend money to help their fellow man.

Show me where he said money was evil.

Show me where he said commerce was evil. In fact, he praised commerce, and the acquisition of wealth in one sense, through the parable of the talents. If the Lord thought money was so evil, would not the purpose of that parable been to show how the servant could take his talent, and give alms to the poor?

Shant wrote:
 Quote:
Why did Timothy say what he did?
And you gave a standard textbook answer - as long as you don't take into account that Christians were becoming a burden to the very people they were trying to convert.

:p [/b]
Actually, to take your last point first, I DO take that into account (which is how I make sense of Timothy.) They had come to the conclusion that what Jesus had to say was simply unworkable if the end-time wasn't at hand.

Nice try though. You managed to do an entire exegesis without quoting Jesus once. Neat trick. Now Paul, he's worth quoting. Timothy, we give him three verses. But Jesus gets paraphrases, inferences, interpretations. You just have to bend him because he makes you so, so uncomfortable.

But if you choose Jesus condemnation of "covetousness" and "hoarding" as worthy of inclusion in your Biblical indignation, I hope to see that carry over to all conversations of corporate capitalism, corporate executives, corporate fleecing, health care policy, you name it. You've used Paul on homosexuality enough for the past 12 months; now let's see how willing you are to use Jesus when it comes to economics.

Jesus had nothing to say about money, much as he had nothing to say about gay people. Nothing. Zippo. So let's not be selective. He had sometime to say about rich people (regardless of how they got their wealth) -- you're the Bible man, want to quote it?; he had something to say about what rich people should do with their money (regardless of how they got it, and it wasn't "throw it away", so now I have come to distrust your Biblical reading) - want to quote it?; and he had something to say about what ordinary people should do around saving and investing - want to quote it? And his disciples understood him loud and clear -- they took him at his word (Paul and Timothy included), and did what he said.

I don't expect you to be a disciple -- that's totally up to you. That they were primitive communists is not really true -- they did not share in the ownership of any means of production, from what I can see in Acts. They were simple communitarians -- like many thousands (Christians and otherwise) I know personally in the U.S. (check out my friends at Jubilee Partners http://www.jubileepartners.org/index.htm ) And you can twist and turn your book anyway you like -- hey, it's your book. But the next time, and the next time, and the next time, you make a Paulist crack about homosexuality, expect to be called upon it. And the next time we engage in conversation about corporate greed, I'll ask you to get out your WWJD bracelet.

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#851264 - 07/17/03 04:13 PM Re: TROLLS
ChickGrand Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/03
Posts: 3202
Loc: Midwest U.S.
 Quote:
Originally posted by Dwain Lee:
I am the President of the United States.

...there are specific written standards within the Constitution, not to mention actual elections, to determine just who can be called the President of the United States...[/b]
I am sooooooooooooo relieved! Thank the God that I have doubted.

(Just hearing what I want to hear \:D . )

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#851265 - 07/17/03 04:20 PM Re: TROLLS
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
President Dwain,

Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or Green Party?

Left or Right?

Where do you stand on abortion, pro-life, pro-choice?

Do you really think Iraq had WMD's?

Did you really cook the books?

What kind of underwear do you wear?

We peons really have a need to know! \:D \:D \:D

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#851266 - 07/17/03 04:36 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Originally posted by George W. Bush:
 Quote:
I am the President of the United States.

In fact, I've known for quite a few years now that I am the President of the United States. It is something that I not only felt, but knew in my bones to be absolute fact.

Some people have tried to deny that I am the President, by making claims that there are specific written standards within the Constitution, not to mention actual elections, to determine just who can be called the President of the United States. But their attitudes only reflect an irritation over the fact that I know that I'm the President, and that their opinions are misguided. There are many people, living and dead, who have claimed to be the President of the United States, and who have not met these people's interpretations of those written criteria.

Regardless of those differing interpretations, I know that I am the President. I will always know it. And I will die knowing that I am the President, and after I die no one will be able to argue with me any further about my knowledge that I am the President, much to their annoyance and consternation. I will have died secure in my knowledge.

Obviously then, I am the President of the United States.
[/b]
Mr. President, we've been through that Electoral College Bit and the Hanging Chads in spades. NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE, is contesting your legitimacy to be in office now.

But if you continue to use Dwain Lee of Piano World.com as a Sock Puppet, you may have even more trouble than already, getting people to trust your credibility.

And then, bye bye, Second Term!

Ariel

P.S. I realize you have the best Media people in the history of the world - as well you might, having hired most of them from the major networks. But forgive me, Sir, I do think this time your photograph is a bit too flattering.

_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851267 - 07/17/03 04:40 PM Re: TROLLS
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Ariel,

I think you have it wrong. I think LP is GWB's sockpuppet. But then, isn't LP actually Dwain? It's all so confusing. \:D
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#851268 - 07/17/03 04:42 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851269 - 07/17/03 04:44 PM Re: TROLLS
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
Then it stands to reason that...He could not create imperfection. [/b]
I don't know about that. He created me. :p
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#851270 - 07/17/03 04:57 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Jolly -- asked and answered. Jesus said not one word about money (from what I can tell), much as he said not one word about gay people.

To quote from the Book of Shanti,

"Jesus had nothing to say about money, much as he had nothing to say about gay people. Nothing. Zippo. So let's not be selective. He had sometime to say about rich people (regardless of how they got their wealth) -- you're the Bible man, want to quote it?; he had something to say about what rich people should do with their money (regardless of how they got it, and it wasn't "throw it away", so now I have come to distrust your Biblical reading) - want to quote it?; and he had something to say about what ordinary people should do around saving and investing - want to quote it? And his disciples understood him loud and clear -- they took him at his word (Paul and Timothy included), and did what he said."

We've know gone 30 posts or so on this round, and you are STILL unwilling to quote Jesus (as above).
You won't either -- it just makes you squirm too much.

Would Jesus be proud of us? Oh, I doubt that very, very much.

My wife and I lived for 14 years as "simple communitarians". And I took that a step further, and ran a million-dollar publishing business as a simple small "c" communist. Means of production held in common; each according to abilities, each according to needs, the whole nine yards. I left when it became too successful, (and it is still flourishing today), and I spent more time handling money than I liked.

My Indian "parents" (long story) have lived as Gandhian communitarians for their entire (70-year) adult lives. I'm busy finishing a book about them that will be out next spring called "The Color of Freedom"). My mother collects children off rubbish heaps. If you ask her how many children she has, she'll look you right in the eye and ask back, "how many are there?"

Jesus proud of us? Since I have lived in the world of Christian communitarianism, and know the current size of my bank account, I doubt that greatly. Outside of that, I think he'd have some especially stern words for followers of Mr. Paul.

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#851271 - 07/17/03 05:24 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
So in essence what you are saying when you wave your nose in the air at the Pauline writings is that you consider them not devinely inspired and not worthy of inclusion into the Bible.

You can leave snot tracks on the theoretical Coffee Room ceiling as long as you want.

In the realm of Christianity, I think most would agree that Paul belongs in the Bible. I know he's in mine.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851272 - 07/17/03 05:33 PM Re: TROLLS
Bernard Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/01
Posts: 3857
Loc: North Groton, NH
Benedit, you said:
 Quote:
It would be a good thing to define "religious experience" though.
As coincidence would have it, while surfing the web for articles on Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation last week I stumbled upon these 2 sites, if anyone wants a diversion (I can start a new thread for this if you think I should):

Neurotheology & Cognitive Liberty

Your Brain on God


Disclaimer: This stuff is all new to me, I know nothing about it yet.
_________________________
"Hunger for growth will come to you in the form of a problem." -- unknown

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#851273 - 07/17/03 05:34 PM Re: TROLLS
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
You're read before what I've said about Paul (and the entire book) -- that it IS divinely inspired, just not uniquely so, and I have no information whatsoever about Irenaeus' inspiration though I think he would be scandalized by the deification of his work -- he only meant (from what I read) to be taking on the Gnostic heresy, not to tell us which books were uniquely divinely inspired.

Still not willing to quote Jesus, ay? Still squirming? He's not good enough for you, that you've got to take him second or third hand?

(My Jesus is perfectly fine with squirming -- from the Friendly way of thinking, that was precisely the point -- to set a "pattern" that we could seek to mirror, knowing in advance that we were likely to fail along the way, pick ourselves up, and keep squirming.)

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#851274 - 07/17/03 05:40 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
There is no squirm here, my friend. Where do you want to go - riding camelback through needles with rich young men?
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