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#851305 - 07/18/03 01:46 PM Re: TROLLS
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
I have never seen Pique howl at her jewishness.

She is a very intelligent, competent and sensitive person.

Stop attacking her personally.

If you want to be respected for your strange intolerant, a bit wayward (an understatement) ideas, they you'd better stop the attitude.

Everything you write fits the exact definition of Pharisees in the Bible.

Let us breathe and stop being the ultimate troll : the one who terrorizes those that have a different opinion and express it in a provoking but often intelligent and charming way.

There are places for expressing ones beliefs like all other beliefs were BS. Here is a Coffee Room where people want to feel secure and maybe say things that are not exactly the absolute truth in a search for growth and encounter.

Authoritarian trolls are a pain.

Show some respect. You are respected. But not your authoritarian, righteous, trollish attitude.
_________________________
Benedict

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#851306 - 07/18/03 02:17 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
You have your opinion, of course, benedict. One that is respected, but not agreed with.

In this thread, I would say we are very deep into personal belief systems. If others doubt, that is fine, Thomas doubted, also.

But yes, I can draw a line in the dust, and hopefully be a rock that cannot be moved. Hopefully, I can defend that line to my satisfaction, or perhaps to yours.

So who is the terrorist, benedict? Those who speak, or those who cannot stand to hear the speech uttered?
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851307 - 07/18/03 03:14 PM Re: TROLLS
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Jolly,

Sorry to get heated.

I accept your opinions without any problem.

If you quote a book written a long time ago and somebody quotes the same book and expresses doubts towards it validity as a Law book for today, then it is an exchange in a forum.

If you doubt the intelligence of people who have other opinions, it is a terror attack.

I know pique is strong enough to defend herself but I must feel something personally touched in this lowering of women.

I didn't feel comfortable with TomK's vicious attacks at Ariel and am glad that he stopped when he realized he was not amusing anybody and made this place a very unpleasant one.

I do not feel comfortable when LP or Pique are attacked as persons. A good warrior should be able to refutate ideas he disagree with without destroying the self-esteem of the person under the eyes of an audience. That is shere bullying.

Calling what I write BS is an insult in my book.

Quoting the Bible like an authority to people for who the Bible is at most a source of inspiration among others but carries absolutely no authority whether moral, spiritual and certainly even less legal is like using a water pistol to stop a gang of drug dealers.

I can understand that a DEA agent who would do that would feel like stupid enough and would use a lot of rude words.

If you do not like what people say, I suggest you pray for inspiration, think a lot, breathe deeply and use THEIR logic to show them they are wrong.

You will not convince a moslem by quoting the Bible. Nor an atheist or a agnostic.
You will not convince them by calling them names.

A month ago, I stopped reading newspaper or listening to the news because I had enough of the heat that was all the time regenerated for not much goodness or even intelligence.

I suppose the next step should be to back off from religious controversies.

I'll try that for a while.

See you in a few weeks.

And please be gentle with the people you disagree with. Do not start a jihad.

Regards.

\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#851308 - 07/18/03 03:27 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Gentleness is, as gentleness does, benedict.

And this is not a gentle place.
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851309 - 07/18/03 03:46 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Gentleness is, as gentleness does, benedict.

And this is not a gentle place. [/b]
You're right, Jolly, this isn't always a gentle place. Why, when we have so many here who profess to be Christians?
Back to trolls and we'll use as an example someone who is no longer with us (S). Will trolls like this go to heaven? Let's say he has the same Religious beliefs as you but still acts in such an obnoxious manner. He's never "sinned" but he didn't act very Christ-like.
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851310 - 07/18/03 03:53 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Define Christ-like.

The Christ who died on the cross, the Christ who caused Lazarus to come forth, the Christ who tore up the money-changer's tables, or the Christ of The White Throne Judgement, who casts sinners into everlasting torment?

Perhaps my perception of Christ is more 19th century, than of today. I believe that Christ is love, but he is also justice, and the final arbitrator of damnation.
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851311 - 07/18/03 04:23 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Define Christ-like.

The Christ who died on the cross, the Christ who caused Lazarus to come forth, the Christ who tore up the money-changer's tables, or the Christ of The White Throne Judgement, who casts sinners into everlasting torment?

Perhaps my perception of Christ is more 19th century, than of today. I believe that Christ is love, but he is also justice, and the final arbitrator of damnation. [/b]
Christ-like: per justme
*Loving, giving, compassionate, just, courageous, trustworthy, patient, forgiving, kind, fair, modest, honest, tolerant, humble, faithful.

*Can be added to if necessary or if I think of something else. \:\)
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851312 - 07/18/03 04:38 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
When I think of acting like Christ, I haven't thought that I was to act like God, judge others and smite down my enemies...interesting perception.

Ken

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#851313 - 07/18/03 05:02 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
No, I would not say to I am to judge others. That is not the idea I meant to convey. However, if that falls in line with anybody's preconcieved notions, so be it. I do feel the Book gives us many example of things that are wrong, and not within the purview of judgement.

No, Christ was a carpenter, though some may argue and say that his training was more accurately that of a stonemason. No matter, I've been around working men all my life, and I suspect that Christ was no pantywaist.

Loving - certainly. He is the embodiment of love. But we know he had a temper, and could resort to violence when confronted with abomination. We know that he will ultimately judge each individual, and some will not like His judgement.

So there are more facets to Christ than just love.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851314 - 07/18/03 05:16 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by kluurs:
When I think of acting like Christ, I haven't thought that I was to act like God, judge others and smite down my enemies...interesting perception.

Ken [/b]
Ken,
I believe Jesus came down from Heaven to show us how to live. I wasn't saying anyone should play God. In fact, too many people tend to do this. Did you think I was implying that. If so, I should delete the post.
justme
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851315 - 07/18/03 05:27 PM Re: TROLLS
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
When the the consciousness, known to this Forum as Renauda, dies it will cease to exist in the material world of space/time. Renauda will no longer be aware of its existence and the linear concept of time. It will pass into nothingness. As such it will not be aware of any judgements passed upon its being and will not feel either pain or pleasure. Its total being will be nothing more than an accumulation of experiences of a corporeal lifetime. It was born and it will die. Any legacy it leaves will have been of its own doing.

It was not born in sin, it did not live in sin and it will not die in sin- in fact, it denies the existence of sin but admits a social and humanitarian responsibility towards others. While alive it tried to do its best under the circumstances it was faced with, it made mistakes and worked to avoid repeating them. It fears no judgement other than judgement of its own consciousness.

...no this is not a gentle place and I didn't have to rely on anything other than reasoned common sense to come up with that.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#851316 - 07/18/03 05:40 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Renauda,

You may be right, and I may be wrong.

If you're right, I will have tried to live a decent life, and hope this world will have been a better place for it. And then I'm worm food.

But if I'm right, and you're wrong... ;\)
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851317 - 07/18/03 05:41 PM Re: TROLLS
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
Christ ultimately chose to die for the sins of others...when perhaps as God, he could have just struck them down...ideally with appropriate firepower.

Actually, Christ could be quite angry -- but that was with the most self-righteously confident religious folks of his generation, the Pharasees and their friends...Actually, I have always interpretted his actions towards them as loving as well. He knew that their righteousness blinded them and so he needed to be more forceful to aid them hearing. He loved them in a way they needed to be loved.

He reached out to those who knew they were sinners in a different way. He didn't judge these folks with a damning voice because they knew they were sinners -- and he preached his message to them with a calmer voice.

No more...pointless words...pointless messages...

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#851318 - 07/18/03 05:55 PM Re: TROLLS
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Kluurs wrote:
 Quote:
Christ ultimately chose to die for the sins of others...when perhaps as God, he could have just struck them down...ideally with appropriate firepower.
Perhaps does not belong in that sentence, if one believes Christ has dominion over heaven and hell. The act of total love is evident in his choice.

What I am trying to convey, in these last few posts, is the fact that Christ is much more than love, or if you like, the love of Christ has more than one channel.
_________________________
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#851319 - 07/18/03 05:57 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


What I am trying to convey, in these last few posts, is the fact that Christ is much more than love, or if you like, the love of Christ has more than one channel. [/b]
Go on..........
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851320 - 07/18/03 06:19 PM Re: TROLLS
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Renauda,

You may be right, and I may be wrong.

If you're right, I will have tried to live a decent life, and hope this world will have been a better place for it.

[/b]
And both of us will have been good people while alive. And if I am wrong, I- as well as you- will have still been a good person while alive. What is done is done. ;\)
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#851321 - 07/18/03 07:05 PM Re: TROLLS
Luke's Dad Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/28/03
Posts: 1426
Loc: Mid Atlantic
Ok, I take a couple days off, Take the wife and son to see his grandparents, come back and find a little thread about trolls that had started when I left has turned into a 7 page, 200 post monster about religion. How? Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good religious debate with the best of them, but how? It was about trolls?!!!!

Wow, you guys are good! ;\) \:o \:D
_________________________
Purveyor of Yamaha, Petrof, Pearl River, and Kohler & Campbell pianos.

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#851322 - 07/18/03 07:57 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Luke's Dad,

Many threads metamorphosize dramatically especially in the "Coffee Room".

We have had one (before your time) which took the following journey:

Beginning with a teenager - the thread originator - reaching out for reassurance about a personal "fetish", it turned with alternating gentleness and vituperation (mostly the latter) into talks about child-rearing, the idiocy of psycho (- therapeutic) coddling, the pros and cons of vegetarianism (and especially the personal failings of vegetarians and their sympathizers), winding down finally with a long, heated debate about the environment and the integrity (or lack thereof) of environmental activists and their journalistic organs...

Spliced here and there were personal jibes, witticisms (or attempts thereto), alliances and misalliances formed and then dissolved between predictable as well as surprising protaganists. Children were conceived and died, vegetables were planted and harvested, while eleven scrolled pages of human history were written in Short and Long-Term Memory. The only underlying theme was ridicule of the teenager himself, and particularly of his area of sensitivity - which, has, in fact, become a Forum "in-joke" (though not for all of us).

In contrast, I find a peculiar consistency here betweeen the initial inquiry about the Luciferian Principle of Internet Evil, the "Troll" (fallen angel of the Deity of Free Speech)...and this talk now of God, the Devil and Human kindness!

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851323 - 07/19/03 10:51 AM Re: TROLLS
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Jolly,

 Quote:
And this is not a gentle place.
All considered, I find this place a gentle place.

With a few little guidelines, conversations are even courteous.

1° Refutation is OK. Calling what people express sincerely BS is not OK

2° Attacking ideas which offend one is OK. Attacking the person is not OK.

These two guidelines are more easy to follow than the 613 rules, aren't they ?

I have decided to quit discussing religion. It is such an undecidable subject. But I do respect religious persons a lot. Especially if they keep religion in the religious field.

The political and social field (Caesar) is one where our responsability and empowerment is total.

And I won't discuss that field either.

All I am left with is jokes and Tour de France.

\:D
_________________________
Benedict

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#851324 - 07/19/03 12:48 PM Re: TROLLS
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
benedict,

thanks for your chivalry on my behalf. you are so very eloquent in my defense, it is much better than i could have done myself.

this place is gentle or not depending on the temper of those who post here. if people post here in an abusive and hostile way, they create that atmosphere. all we need to make this a full-time gentle place is have the one or two loud mouths who post disrespectfully towards their fellow human beings recognize their own incivility and correct it.

i can't imagine that jesus christ, no matter whether you believe he was the son of god or just a very good man, would ever write the things here that jolly writes, and certainly not with his tone of utter disdain and disrespect for others.

if that is the example for christ-like behavior and righteous living we're supposed to follow, i will pass. not only am i unconvinced, i am disgusted by it.
_________________________
piqué

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#851325 - 07/19/03 12:51 PM Re: TROLLS
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
I have never seen Pique howl at her jewishness.[/b]
I've seen her howl at me! (pique--it was a joke!)

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#851326 - 07/19/03 02:07 PM Re: TROLLS
The D's Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/01
Posts: 624
Loc: Southwestern Oregon
This has to be one of the fastest-growing threads I've ever seen...

_________________________
Musically,
Benjamin Francis
http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis
(I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?)
----------
Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach:
"Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."

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#851327 - 07/19/03 02:30 PM Re: TROLLS
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
love your avatar, tomk. \:\)
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

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#851328 - 07/19/03 02:33 PM Re: TROLLS
The D's Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/08/01
Posts: 624
Loc: Southwestern Oregon
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqué:
love your avatar, tomk. \:\) [/b]
In agreement. I think it fits him very well. (Not trying to be offensive).
_________________________
Musically,
Benjamin Francis
http://www.myspace.com/benjaminfrancis
(I just changed my sig., so no grief, yeah?)
----------
Sofia Gilmson regarding Bach:
"Bach didn't write the subject; he wrote the fugue."

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#851329 - 07/19/03 03:10 PM Re: TROLLS
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
i think it is too clowny
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#851330 - 07/19/03 04:45 PM Re: TROLLS
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
ARIEL, WHERE ARE YOU?????????????? You're missing TomK in a really nice mood. He's writing poems to Apple and everything!
Besides, we miss you!
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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#851331 - 07/19/03 05:08 PM Re: TROLLS
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
 Quote:
Posted by justme: ARIEL, WHERE ARE YOU?????????????? You're missing TomK in a really nice mood. He's writing poems to Apple and everything!
Besides, we miss you!
[/b]
A point of procedure: I will never address directly any post made by Ariel, and would suggest she never address any post made by me. I wish nothing to do with her and hope she feels the same about me.

I am not looking for any argument, fight or anything else. She should leave me alone and I will leave her alone. I don't like her, she doesn't like me.

Period.

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#851332 - 07/19/03 05:17 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Thank you justme! Look, I hearkened to you across the reaches of the Internet* I was actually writing a post to benedict - needed to check a Kabbalistic reference. He said something interesting about it. Kabbalah is the one and only Legit branch of Jewish mysticism...Madonna herself is studying it. (If Michael Jackson starts though, I QUIT).

By the way, justme, you haven't been here long enough to know that TomK ALWAYS writes poems to apple. I should think he could publish a short volume by now, especially if they were at it in a former lifetime too - I mean avatars, or whatever...

I don't see anything wrong with a lipstick either, by the way (and besides you can always change it - I certainly don't plan on being this cheesy version of Mark Twain forever)...the only thing that bothers me a tiny bit is that it is not easily recognizable as a lipstick. Just my 2C as they say. Thanks for the summons. \:\) This IS the Troll thread, I hope? There were a few windows open on my monitor.

Ariel

*I guess after I die I will be condemned to answering calls from teenaged girls having slumber parties and using a oiuja board. "Does Biff REALLY like me or is he just using me?" "Does Shari think my new hair chunking is rad or is she just saying it so I look gheigh?" Now that IS my idea of hell. (Maybe this belongs in the religion thread - one of them).
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851333 - 07/19/03 05:30 PM Re: TROLLS
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
And speaking to the unattributed voice in the ether, I want to say that we agree perfectly on something for once. My thoughts exactly. I was thinking of proposing the identical thing, in fact - basically a "you stay on your side of the forum, I'll stay on mine" arrangement. Similar to the imaginary lines my brothers used to draw on the piano bench (to my mothers chagrin), when we were supposed to perform duets or triplets at piano recitals to "be cute"...If the image is clear. Only without the jostling of elbows when the line was breached in airspace...

And one further suggestion/stipulation: that the ethrous voice and I agree to only refer to one another by our proper PW names, even indirectly in posts addresed to others, as in the post two above this (if nobody cuts in) - that is, the names we chose for ourselves, rather than offensive epithets...Hope the references are clear. Ie, I am "Ariel" and...he (gag) is "TomK." It was just a little hard to say it that first time. No offense. Remember that includes references made in postings to others...
He and I both have our little repertoires of non-endearments which we will refrain from substituting. As I am refraining now.

And I am not trying to provoke at all, only to clarify.

?

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#851334 - 07/19/03 05:37 PM Re: TROLLS
TomK Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/06/02
Posts: 2611
Yea, whatever. \:D

And further I propose a referee. justme. More your friend than mine. But, she's fair. I go over the line she calls it, you go over the line she calls it.

If she makes the call, the offendee apologizes and backs off. Fair?

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