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#862949 - 10/22/04 03:09 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by erginc:
I said getting...not got. :rolleyes: [/b]
Touche! \:D

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#862950 - 10/22/04 03:12 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
Originally posted by snap_apple:
I would like to know 89th when you chose to be heterosexual rather then homosexual?

If you have ever been in a relationship or had a crush on somebody I would like you to answer me how you came to that decision.

I would like you to tell me how you came to the decision not to be attracted to your family members.

I would like you to tell me how if you or someone you know decided to avoid polygamy.[/b]

Well I'm natural and normal, and I am attracted to, and will procreate with, a woman (the only way for our species to go on).

I never said it was a choice, but I definitely don't think you are born that way (after all, your parents have to be hetero for you to be there), but I think for most gays it is a subconcious disorder that makes them that way. Why not? There is no genetic evidence that there is a 'gay' gene, and after all, the ONLY reason we are here today are because of heteros.
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#862951 - 10/22/04 03:14 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
Ok, ill barely be on this weekend, so dont look to far into the fact that I wont respond to comments.

Have a good weekend everyone!! \:D
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#862952 - 10/22/04 03:18 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Freedom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/10/03
Posts: 1192
Loc: Scotland
 Quote:
Originally posted by justme:
 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
justme, the way that Pique has performed in here by talking about my age rather than making a legitimate point classifies her as shallow and foolish in my opinion. [/b]
IMHO, you're too new to this forum to be so judgmental.

You haven't asked for it but I'm going to give you some "friendly" advice. Open up your mind a little. We all have a lot to learn. I'm, at least, twice your age and will tell you that I'm here to learn from everyone. I think it's wonderful you show such an interest in politics and current events. But, lighten up a little. There are a lot of loony lefties on this forum. Unfortunately you're projecting yourself as a loony right. I say this with empathy. [/b]
Well said justme I agree
_________________________
"A print of the score has everything you need to know about the music, except the essential."

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#862953 - 10/22/04 03:27 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:


Well I'm natural and normal, [/b]
Leave that for us to decide! \:D


 Quote:

I never said it was a choice, but I definitely don't think you are born that way (after all, your parents have to be hetero for you to be there), but I think for most gays it is a subconcious disorder that makes them that way. Why not? There is no genetic evidence that there is a 'gay' gene, and after all, the ONLY reason we are here today are because of heteros. [/b]
I thing gays might start looking for some changes in society if and when the real "cause" of homosexuality is found.

Before that time--changing laws and definitions and meanings is very, VERY premature. ;\)

As Polonius said to Laertes:

Be true to thyself then as the night follows the day, thou canst be false to any man. (From memory, OK?)

Gays should find out who they are before they can tell others who they are.

Stands to reason. \:D

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#862954 - 10/22/04 03:45 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
The 89th Key Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/20/04
Posts: 2400
Loc: Northern Virginia
There is just as much evidence supporting "born gay" as there is "subconcious disorder".

And if I have a closed mind because I think your OPINION (because thats all it is, no evidence for either side) is wrong...

then wouldn't that make you have a closed mind as well since you think my OPINION is wrong?

Ok, I really have to go this time, haha, see you all later...
_________________________
-The 89th Key

www.thecollegecritic.com
--- Integrity | Loyalty | Simplicity ---[/b]

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#862955 - 10/22/04 04:39 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
There is never going to be a 100% sure answer as to what causes homosexuality but does it matter?

be it genetics or be it "subconscious disorder" the fact is they have a very strong attraction to the opposite sex. That is what makes sense to them emotionally. They just can not feel physically attracted to the opposite sex.

Here is an interesting article that may help you understand that homosexuality can naturally occur in not only the human species but in the entire animal world.


Why members of some species prefer their own sex

Courtship in the barnyard usually puts a smile on farmers' faces and dollar signs in their eyes. That good cheer quickly sours, however, when the theátwo lovebirds happen to be of the same sex. The problem isn't a moral one, of course. Strictly financial.

Many domestic and wild animals engage in sexual activity with members of both the same and the opposite sex; a smaller number have eyes only for their own sex. Some of these homosexual activities appear to boost reproduction. Female cows often mount each other, thereby signaling any bulls in sight that they are ready to reproduce. In other cases, same-sex affairs may help reproduction indirectly, by promoting the general fitness of a group or individual. For example, in some species, animals are more willing to share food with a member of their own sex after sexual activity with him or her.

Indeed, researchers interested in animal behavior and sexual selection have long held that the main function of homosexual endeavors is to ensure, in a roundabout way, that one's genes get passed along.

The sheep farmer who paid big bucks for a ram's mating abilities and finds the animal ignoring his ewes would certainly question this theory. Besides failing at their jobs, high-libido homosexual rams cause havoc in the sheep pens by disrupting other males mating with females.

A few scientists are now siding with the farmers. Recent studies indicate that homosexual behavior in some species may have much more to do with sexual gratification than with reproduction. Studies are also revealing biological differences between straight and gay animals. These findings may lead to screening tests to help prevent the wrong animals from getting hired for mating jobs. They may also shed light on the possible roots of human homosexuality, some researchers argue.

For the most part, homosexual behaviors in domestic animals are considered normal and helpful for the development of reproduction. "This is not always the case," animal behaviorist Anne Perkins of Carroll College in Helena, Mont., and James A. Fitzgerald of Oregon State University in Corvallis assert in Sexual Orientation (Westport, Conn.: Praeger, in press). Perkins' research on sheep supports this argument.

Scientists have studied the sex drive and sexual orientation of domesticated and wild rams. A heterosexual ram with a strong sex drive will mount either other males or ewes. However, a significant proportion of domesticated males-up to 16 percent-never mate with females during a breeding season, Perkins says.

About 6 percent seem uninterested in any sexual activity. Another 10 percent are homosexual, choosing males even when females are available. Domesticated rams resemble their wild relatives, which scientists have also observed participating in homosexual relations. Ewes rarely engage in such activities.

To try to determine whether rams will service their ewes, farmers simply watch the animals' behavior. They'd like a more foolproof, efficient system, however. Encouraged by new findings on the brain chemistry of homosexual and low-libido sheep, Perkins and her colleagues hope that in the future they'll be able to offer farmers a blood or genetic test.

Estradiol, a form of estrogen, is the bewitching compound that piques a heterosexual ram's interest in females. Ewes and homosexual rams can store a similar amount of estradiol in a brain structure called the amygdala; heterosexual rams accumulate significantly more, Perkins and her colleagues reported in the March 1995 Hormones and Behavior.

Compared to their heterosexual counterparts, homosexual rams have a low concentration of testosterone in their blood, the result of testes that fail to synthesize the hormone as efficiently, Perkins, John A. Resko of Oregon Health Sciences University in Portland, and their colleagues report in the July Biology of Reproduction. Homosexual rams also have lower aromatase activity in a part of the brain, the preoptic area, that helps control sexual behavior in many species. Aromatase, an enzyme, converts testosterone to estrogen.

Though these differences may arise in part during fetal development, a ram's sexual activities may help maintain regions of the amygdala and the preoptic area that mediate sexual behavior, Perkins speculates. Abstinence may cause them to atrophy.

"It's a use-it-or-lose-it kind of thing," she explains.

The idea that animals may have sex just because it feels good proves difficult for some people to accept, says primatologist Paul L. Vasey of the University of Montreal. The Japanese macaques he studies, which are hardly anomalies in the animal kingdom, might change the minds of some of these reluctant scientists.

Both wild and captive males occasionally mount each other, but they almost always pick their mates from the pool of available feminine companions. The females frequently engage in same-sex consortships but aren't exclusively homosexual. Females in a captive group that Vasey studies average seven partners each during their breeding season, about half of them male. Among the monkeys' wild relatives, female homosexuality is most common in troops with a relatively low proportion of males.

The captive females' homosexual liaisons occur only during the breeding season and last from an hour to more than a week, Vasey finds. During that time, they mount only each other, and they do so repeatedly. They remain by each other's side, foraging, grooming, and resting. Males, in contrast, usually take off after copulating.

Female couples fail to fall for flirtatious males and will, 90 percent of the time, either ignore or attack them, Vasey found in a recent study of 14 females in his coed group of Japanese macaques. He reported his findings in October at a meeting of the Canadian Association for Physical Anthropologists in Kingston, Ontario.

Some researchers have argued that animals engage in homosexual activities to associate with dominant same-sex members of their clan and thereby boost their social standing. This theory does not apply to his macaques, Vasey reports in the September Animal Behaviour.

For 2 years, he collected data on the mating habits of three macaque families, made up of 18 adult females, 5 adult males, and 14 youngsters. Of the mature females, 15 engaged in homosexual consortships.

In over 75 percent of the homosexual couples, one or both partners regularly supported the other in fights. Dominant and subordinate members paired up and came to each other's aid, seemingly blind to rank. Moreover, consorts took the unusual step of siding with their partners over their kin during squabbles.

The homosexual relationships also altered social structures. "During homosexual consortships, over half of the subordinate female partners increased in dominance," Vasey reports. The dominant animal's position remained stable.

However, the monkeys didn't choose their same-sex partners on the basis of their potential as allies, otherwise big-shots would have had little interest in their subordinates, he argues. Also, the dominant animals did most of the grooming, and low- and high-ranking members of a couple mounted each other at a similar rate.

"Mutual sexual attraction was the impetus for the formation and maintenance of homosexual consortships," he contends. Sexual selection theory holds that animals pick partners that will increase their chances of passing on their genes, but this doesn't apply to homosexual macaques.

"I'm not saying Darwin was wrong, but there's room for working on the theory so it can accommodate observations of homosexual behavior," he asserts.

Although homosexual relations appear to have little reproductive value for species such as macaques and rams, examples exist of animals ingeniously partnering with the same sex to improve their chances of passing along their genes.

In the wild, when male ring-billed and California gulls are scarce, up to 5 percent of females raise their young with a female partner. They court each other as they would a male and set up a nest together. One or both then copulate with males that already have mates, research by Michael R. Conover of Utah State University in Logan and others has shown. Two-parent families are a necessity in gull communities. One parent stays home and guards the nest from egg-hungry neighbors, while the other goes in search of food.

Females may remain with their same-sex partner for several years, although about half find a male companion by the following mating season, reports Conover.

Because different species of gulls look so similar, scientists had wondered how female gulls select males that belong to their species. In an experiment, researchers put herring gull eggs in the nests of wild ring-billed gulls. When ready for breeding, the female offspring sought out ring-billed mates. This suggests that the birds pick males that resemble their fathers-or in this case, their adoptive fathers, says Conover.

This finding recently led him and his colleagues to begin investigating how birds raised by same-sex, same-species couples select their mates. They have banded several thousand chicks and plan to monitor their mate choice for 5 years. Of the first four gulls that they've observed with mates, all had picked members of their own species. Two had partnered with females, and the others had picked males.

Research into the benefits and origins of homosexuality in animals is important to furthering understanding of animal behavior. However, people can't help wondering what the findings say about, well, people. Growing numbers of human studies are now linking homosexuality to unique biological traits (SN: 8/10/96, p. 88).

The discovery of estradiol differences in homosexual and heterosexual rams "complements recent reports regarding the genetic and anatomical correlates of homosexual orientation described in humans," Perkins and her colleagues proposed in the 1995 Hormones and Behavior.

However, Perkins and Fitzgerald "leave it up to each reader [of Sexual Orientation] to determine whether mechanisms mediating sexual orientation in sheep could help explain similar mechanisms involved in humans." Perkins does note that humans and sheep have more similar reproductive systems than do humans and other laboratory animals, such as rats.

What does the macaque research say about human sexuality? It raises the possibility that human homosexuality has no "evolutionary or reproductive benefits and that it's just for pleasure also," contends Vasey.

[/b]


Now if animals are purely instinctive why then are some of them instinctively and naturally engaging in sexual activity with the same sex? Do they suffer from the same "subconscious disorder?" how bout genetics? Homosexuality is not just specifically human. It happens in the wild too. We have to be civilized enough to accept that it's part of this world.

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#862956 - 10/22/04 04:45 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
snap_apple Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/03
Posts: 710
I would also like to ask 89th how you would feel if you were in their situation? How would you feel if you were heterosexual (like you say) but society was predominantly homosexual? What if homosexuals got married but heterosexuals were not allowed? what if homosexuals got all these benefits and enjoyed a legally bonding relationship and you did not? You too wanted to be a part of society, you too wanted these benefits but you weren't allowed because you were attracted to women. You can't help that you are attracted to women...you tried to be attracted to men, but you just couldn't get into it. You felt perfectly normal yet everybody was rejecting your feelings. How would you feel. Be honest. They feel the same way about men as you do about women. You can't help it...they can't help it. The only difference is your accepted into the majority, you can participate in marriage and they can't.

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#862957 - 10/22/04 05:07 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:
I would also like to ask 89th how you would feel if you were in their situation? How would you feel if you were heterosexual (like you say) but society was predominantly homosexual? [/b]
I can't help it Snap, but I would be very content knowing that I am a patient person with time on my side as I perform essential services to propagate the species and better the community. \:D
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#862958 - 10/22/04 05:18 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Tom--K Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 5934
 Quote:
Originally posted by snap_apple:



Why members of some species prefer their own sex

Courtship in the barnyard...that it's just for pleasure also," contends Vasey.

[/b]
[/b]
And when the "pleasure" is over--the animals are slaughtered. Maybe that could be the plan! \:D

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#862959 - 10/22/04 05:20 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by Renauda:
[/b]
I can't help it Snap, but I would be very content knowing that I am a patient person with time on my side as I perform essential services to propagate the species and better the community. \:D [/QB][/QUOTE]

I bet you would :rolleyes:
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#862960 - 10/22/04 05:22 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
You can bet on it. In there like a dirty shirt as they say. OOOWAH!!!
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#862961 - 10/22/04 06:51 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by The 89th Key:
if you allow gay marriage, you will open the door for so many other "rights"[/b]
I need glasses. What I read the first time was:

If you swallow gay marriage, you will open the back door for many other "rights"

_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

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#862962 - 10/22/04 06:54 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
kathyk Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/19/03
Posts: 6971
Loc: Maine
You people really ought to stick to your own bedrooms (confine the damage \:o ).

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#862963 - 10/22/04 06:56 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
netizen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/02/01
Posts: 1926
Loc: New York
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
You people really ought to stick to your own bedrooms (confine the damage \:o ). [/b]
Most republicans are pervs. It's a fact. ;\) Just like our old friend Kenny Starr. ;\)
_________________________
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that
we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."-- Theodore Roosevelt

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#862964 - 10/22/04 06:57 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
You people??? Reminds me of Churchill referring to the Nazis as "those people".
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

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#862965 - 10/22/04 07:07 PM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by kathyk:
You people really ought to stick to your own bedrooms (confine the damage \:o ). [/b]
Gosh Kathy, if you're sticking to things in your bedroom it's time to change those sheets!!!
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#862966 - 10/23/04 09:26 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
Jeffrey Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/04
Posts: 2948
Loc: New York
Net "Most republicans are pervs. It's a fact."

Any stats to back this up? If true, it would be a good thing, IMNSHO. \:\)

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#862967 - 10/23/04 09:38 AM Re: Liberals never win ANY argument!!!
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by netizen:
Most republicans are pervs. It's a fact. ;\) [/b]
I guess I'm a perv.
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

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