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#869074 - 07/03/03 03:01 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
 Quote:
Overall we just do not identify religion and nationality as do Americans although we are just as happy to have freedom from religion as you [/b]
Not all of *us* evidentally, as witness this Thread!

Friday: I can imagine - how little I know of the issues! What IS Koth?

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869075 - 07/03/03 10:27 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
I think the KOTH thread held the record for being the longest thread, but it seems to have dropped off the radar, and I can't remember what the actual name of it was. If you hit search (above) and type in Koth, you come up with a bunch of old threads, it's probably one of those.

Jodi

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#869076 - 07/03/03 11:23 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
jodi,

Thanks! I wondered if perhaps KOTH were a variant of "Couth". As in "He's really unkoth".
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~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869077 - 07/03/03 11:37 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14048
Loc: Louisiana
Gryphon's "picture thread" is the longest on the forums. KOTH is in excess of 400 posts, but picture passed it awhile ago.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#869078 - 07/03/03 12:48 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
RKVS1 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 3192
Loc: Topeka, Kansas
"King of the Hill" may still hold the record, with 14,356 posts, 7421 of them from Larry. \:D
..
..
Edit: [not counting edits]
..
..

..Bob

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#869079 - 07/03/03 01:41 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
Ariel,

KOTH stands for "King of the Hill" and that is the name you will find the thread under. It's one of the very best ones in our collective history, but be prepared for a long read.

Really? Pictures has surpassed KOTH???!!! wow, gryphon should get some kind of honorary award for starting the longest running thread yet.

edit: bob, you slipped in. \:\)
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#869080 - 07/03/03 02:46 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
pique, didn't you tell us you'd post your picture there?

_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#869081 - 07/03/03 03:36 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Oh man, Gryphon - your smileys keep getting better and better. \:\) Jodi

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#869082 - 07/03/03 08:52 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Just for the record, I looked up both KOTH and King of the Hill on the Search Engine (both with and without quotes) and neither one came up as a thread. So I guess I will have to remain in the dark about it. I wonder what the title itself meant. Anybody else have trouble with the "Search" Engine this way?? This isn't the first time I've run into it.

I DID bump into some other interesting threads, however, such as "Define Liberal and Conservative" - that did sound familiar \:D . ALso some stuff from someone named Robert, I think, in a thread called "Am I Crazy or Just Extreme?"...About whether he should purchase a Viper (I guess this is a car) in addition to a Hamburg Steinway D. Or a New York Steinway D. Or all three. Plus some interesting and uncharacteristic advice to him from many long-time posters. So searching for KOTH (kind of like GODOT) wasn't wholly wasted.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869083 - 07/03/03 10:24 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
I believe it was a thread about which piano was king of the hill. Didn't it turn into a Yamaha war? I can't remember. I'll see if I can find it. \:\) Jodi

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#869084 - 07/03/03 11:23 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
RKVS1 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/07/01
Posts: 3192
Loc: Topeka, Kansas
KOTH started out as which instruement was tops, i.e. Organ vs piano vs clarinet etc. It went fairly soon to which piano make was best, there being a minority of organists in our midsts, and even fewer clarinetists (or flutests, flowtests, or fluppers either), whose correct name was only one of the wide variety of subjects which came up.

Frank MAY have deleted some of these old threads from the archives for space reasons, but I did copy the entire 37 page printout (359 Megs) near the end of its run and am quoting it below.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
naw, I'd probably bend Frank's Frames. \:D

Bob

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#869085 - 07/03/03 11:25 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
here it is:
king of the hill
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#869086 - 07/03/03 11:55 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Thank you pique, Bob, jodi, \:\)

My mistake, sorry! I only "searched" in the Coffee Room. Silly me, KOTH was about pianos of all things. What a tempest in a teapot.

If we want to start the truly infinite thread may I propose, which piano is the "King/Queen of the Hill" in terms of the Conservative/Liberal Ethos?

And is Enjoyment of Music considered part of the Right to Pursue Happiness guaranteed in the Bill of Rights? If so, should this extend to Piano Playing (if not, why not?), with access to a piano unrestricted? Why then should piano ownership not be considered a potential entitlement (and if so, grand or upright)?

Devolving to the same question in the end: what should the make of this piano be?

Ariel ;\)
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If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869087 - 07/04/03 12:17 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
I have been looking at the KOTH thread. After reading page one (which was about KOTH) I leapt to the last page working backwards and, although I've gone from page twelve to ten so far, NOTHING (almost) is about KOTH. But I have run into many of the familiar and by-now-characteristic speeches from various posters. Jolly's embroiled in another camel/eye of the needle argument!!! Is it the original or was there still an earlier one?
I guess it's so, as in French (where is[/b] Benedict?):

Plus ca change, plus ca reste le meme.

The more things change, the more they're the same (not as catchy in English - or is there another way to say it? Perhaps a Yogi Berra version.)
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
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#869088 - 07/04/03 12:24 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
OMG. I can't believe I just read the whole thing. AGAIN. What a classic. We talked/argued about almost everything. How did you find it, Pique? I remembered it was from the forum, but no matter what I plugged into that little box, I couldn't get it to come up.

Here's probably my favorite line from the whole 12 pages:

originally posted by freddie:
It's late at night in a California piano shop. A mahogany Yamaha C-2 is gently sobbing and a Bechstein grand shouts "Shut the hell up, some of us are trying to sleep around here, if PENNY would have wanted you she would have bought you, now goodnight already!!!!".

[/b]

\:D Jodi

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#869089 - 07/04/03 01:02 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
[buffs fingernails grandly on lapels] us researchers have our ways, jodi! \:D

i typed "king" in the search box, specified the piano forum and the title only.

ariel, benedict had not yet joined the forum at the time of KOTH. (geez, sounds like a book of the bible or something--to attempt something like a return to the topic of this thread). he joined only a little bit before you yourself did.

i do miss benedict. anyone know where he is?
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piqué

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#869090 - 07/04/03 01:36 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:

i do miss benedict. anyone know where he is?[/b]
...... France

... \:D
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Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#869091 - 07/04/03 02:11 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
oh, hell, jodi, now you've got me rereading it! here's a gem from david burton (and where is he these days?) that i have cut and pasted into my piano files:

--------------------------------------------------
 Quote:
------------------------------
Originally posted by pique:
i do find it a bit ironic that you are so scornful of political idealists, yet so reverential towards musical idealists!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And heres my answer; when one sits down at ones piano and begins to play as only you or I can, there is no idealism to be reached for, the experience is THERE, right now, instantaneous and totally REAL. When one is able to realize with clarity the breathtaking achievements of some great master to the point that one is almost not conscious of playing as being played by transcendent forces, or even transcendent beings, to play the music, one is not trying for some ideal, one has achieved that state of being there that exists in few other human experiences.

Getting there, to be able to play a piece from memory, to be able to have the music play itself through you, that isnt musical idealism either. In the process of learning, you are being plunged into the unique REALITY of each piece with its own particular set of musical and emotional contexts and contours.

If one is really lucky, like Arthur Rubinstein was, to be able to play for audiences and have their listening energy influence ones own energy at the piano, then one is not idealized, one is REALIZED by the activity and that force and fact is objective reality not an idealized dream.

I have just finished memorizing the little waltz, La plus que lente of Claude Debussy, a perfect little jewel of parlor piano music from 1910 and the other night I was at a party and played it on a venerable old Mason & Hamlin grand. For a spit second we could have been in Paris in 1910, but those who knew the piece told me that it was really timeless. That to me seems the point behind all this fuss about pianos; the MUSIC that they can make and we, with our own two hands, can become at least for a few moments, immortal. For you see, all the shouting over political and religious issues will never accomplish what a single simple piece of exquisite piano music will accomplish. Music can melt the coldest heart, can cause grown men to cry openly, can move women to fainting, can stop wars! It can, it still can.

Heres to all of you as you privately or publicly discover yourselves in one of the most real states one ever can, sitting behind your piano, and with your own two hands realizing that state of momentary immortality in music.
[/b]
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piqué

now in paperback:


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#869092 - 07/04/03 02:23 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
just to push this thread a little bit closer to KOTH length: larry, how the hell are ya?
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piqué

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#869093 - 07/04/03 02:31 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
A bit of trivia about PW software...Confused about why some pages seemed to take forever to scroll (while others just zipped through to the next) I counted the number of individual posts per page.

Sure enough there's a method to the madness. Each page consists of exactly THIRTY-FIVE posts - nothing to do with indiidual length! Except that on the first page,the intitial thread counts as lone post.

So, interested parties can do their math accordingly...You all probably already knew this.

(note that I am entering this info as separate from the following post.)
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If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
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#869094 - 07/04/03 02:45 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
jodi: That is[/b] a hilarious quote about Penny's piano purchase! POOR little Yamaha... \:\(

pique mentioned:
 Quote:
benedict had not yet joined the forum at the time of KOTH. (geez, sounds like a book of the bible or something [/b]
Well, you could always date PW world events accordingly, as in B.K and A.K. (Before and After KOTH) ;\)

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869095 - 07/04/03 02:47 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
pique added:
 Quote:
just to push this thread a little bit closer to KOTH length: larry, how the hell are ya? [/b]
I too was glad to see Larry back breathing fire in a couple of threads. \:\) Soooo, here's one for you to have a gander at, Larry (to go back to the original topic in its purist form)...We've missed your perspective, and you've missed an interesting thread (which has gone all over the place) while you were off allegedly peddling your tumour to various medical centers. What a hokey excuse! What have you REALLY been up to?

Larry, what is your honest opinion about this provocative supposition (click link for quotes from Them[/b]):

The Founding Fathers Weren\'t Christian

And while we're at it, do you think it's possible that Ben Franklin was an Anti-Semite? There's a "quote" somewhere or other in here deposited by Jolly, where Ben speaks of keeping the Asiatic Scourge (Jews) from the new-born country, warning that They would surely take over and fatally mess things up. You can take a pass on this one if you like, as we've chewed it to death already (and Jolly too - almost).

Ariel

P.S. Any updates, Larry???
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If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869096 - 07/04/03 04:10 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
Gad! I avoided the KOTH thread the first time because it was just way too much of a commitment for me. But now that it's a holiday, I had the time to go through it... I think I need to go take a nap.

Ariel, if you somehow manage to link KOTH to the Christian Founding Fathers thread, you deserve a dastardly fate... :p

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#869097 - 07/04/03 04:53 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
I'm reading the KOTH thread for the first time now. Where was I in early 2002? There are a hundred replies I'd like to make there now.

There are lots of people who posted that I don't recognize as well. Have they all left PW?

Edit: wow, what a great thread. Is David Burton a national treasure or what? Where the heck is he?
 Quote:
David Burton from KOTH:
It has taken me fifty years of living and perhaps a dozen permutations of my basic personality and character to recognize certain truths about life, history and people. One of these truths concerns the interplay between the people who are perpetually perturbed, ready to take offense at the drop of a hat, those who believe themselves to be right no matter what, in short the "difficult" people, and those who take a more philosophical, even handed, easier and more friendly view of life, themselves and others. The edge is always to the latter group.[/b]
Of course, most of us probably put ourselves in the "philosophical, even handed, easier and more friendly view of life" category.
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
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#869098 - 07/04/03 05:50 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Nina Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/13/01
Posts: 6467
Loc: Phoenix, AZ
I know I am of that category. I don't know about the rest of you idiots... \:D ;\)

Happy 4th to all!

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#869099 - 07/04/03 05:51 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
You damn well better believe it, Buster!!
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869100 - 07/04/03 06:25 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5483
gryphon wrote:

 Quote:
Is David Burton a national treasure or what? Where the heck is he?
he is a fascinating character for sure. he's probably still lurking around on occasion. david posted less and less over the past year, but he was a frequent daily contributor in the beginning.

he annoyed the hell out of me sometimes, and at other times i felt he was a true musical soul mate.

david, if you are reading this, hello!

some of us got to meet him and hear him play at the new york piano party at bernard's house. go take a look at the pictures from that party, and also do a search on david's name to see what other great epistles he penned in his glory days on the forum. his member info lists a web page that is all about his research into pianos.
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#869101 - 07/05/03 12:27 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Gryphon,

As you probably know, if you find a post of David's, besides the Search function, you can click on his profile and then click on "view recent posts" (upper right). In some ways it's better than the Search Engine because it helps you find posts more easily than just putting you onto a whole thread (where a poster may have a gazillion posts, if it's like KOTH).

It only goes back a few dozen items, but it's very handy if you wonder "whatever became of so and so, and when did he last post?"

Ariel

P.S. I'm afraid my little picture on your "phone call" thread may stop being available afater the Fourth since I, ah, pilfered it...and of course, it was put up for the holiday. I am ecstatic at knowing how to post a picture though, even if I don't have a hosting site!
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If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

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#869102 - 07/06/03 12:36 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Ok Pique..... you said you wanted me to help kick this thing passed the Koth thread....

Here goes.....

The question asked: were the Founding Fathers Christian. The answer of course, is an emphatic YES. All one has to do to figure this out is to spend a little time studying the history of the people at the time. Personally, I have a hard time figuring out why there is even a question about it.

Someone claimed that most of the Founding Fathers were deists, and pointed to Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Paine, Hamilton, and Madison as proof. We were told about the "voluminous writings" of the Founders, but it appears that they have not read those writings Themselves.

The standard assertion is that the Founders were deists. What is a deist? In dictionaries like Websters, Funk & Wagnalls, Century, and others, the terms "deist," "agnostic," and "atheist" appear as synonyms. Therefore, the range of a deist spans from those who believe there is no God, to those who believe in a distant, impersonal creator of the universe, to those who believe there is no way to know if God exists. Do the Founders fit any of these definitions?

None of the notable Founders fit this description. Thomas Paine, in his discourse on "The Study of God," forcefully asserts that it is "the error of schools" to teach sciences without "reference to the Being who is author of them: for all the principles of science are of Divine origin." He laments that "the evil that has resulted from the error of the schools in teaching (science without God) has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism." Paine not only believed in God, he believed in a reality beyond the visible world.

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the necessity of a public religion . . . and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern." Consider also the fact that Franklin proposed a Biblical inscription for the Seal of the United States; that he chose a New Testament verse for the motto of the Philadelphia Hospital; that he was one of the chief voices behind the establishment of a paid chaplain in Congress; and that when in 1787 when Franklin helped found the college which bore his name, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning" built "on Christ, the Corner-Stone." Franklin certainly doesn't fit the definition of a deist.

Nor does George Washington. He was an open promoter of Christianity. For example, in his speech on May 12, 1779, he claimed that what children needed to learn "above all" was the "religion of Jesus Christ," and that to learn this would make them "greater and happier than they already are"; on May 2, 1778, he charged his soldiers at Valley Forge that "To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian"; and when he resigned his commission as commander-in-chief of the military on June 8, 1783, he reminded the nation that "without a humble imitation" of "the Divine Author of our blessed religion" we "can never hope to be a happy nation." Washington's own adopted daughter declared of Washington that you might as well question his patriotism as to question his Christianity.

Alexander Hamilton was certainly no deist. For example, Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great: (1) Christianity, and (2) a Constitution formed under Christianity. Only Hamilton's death two months later thwarted his plan of starting a missionary society to promote Christian government. And at the time he did face his death in his duel with Aaron Burr, Hamilton met and prayed with the Rev. Mason and Bishop Moore, wherein he reaffirmed to him his readiness to face God should he die, having declared to them "a lively faith in God's mercy through Christ, with a thankful remembrance of the death of Christ." At that time, he also partook of Holy Communion with Bishop Moore.

It was also claimed in this thread that Jefferson omitted all miraculous events of Jesus from his "Bible." Rarely do those who make this claim let Jefferson speak for himself. Jefferson own words explain that his intent for that book was not for it to be a "Bible," but rather for it to be a primer for the Indians on the teachings of Christ (which is why Jefferson titled that work, "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth"). What Jefferson did was to take the "red letter" portions of the New Testament and publish these teachings in order to introduce the Indians to Christian morality. And as President of the United States, Jefferson signed a treaty with the Kaskaskia tribe wherein he providedat the government's expenseChristian missionaries to the Indians. In fact, Jefferson himself declared, "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." While many might question this claim, the fact remains that Jefferson called himself a Christian, not a deist.

Want proof? Jefferson\'s letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush regarding the "Jefferson Bible"

James Madison trained for the ministry with the Rev. Dr. John Witherspoon, and Madison's writings are replete with declarations of his faith in God and in Christ. In fact, for proof of this, one only need read his letter to Attorney General Bradford wherein Madison laments that public officials are not bold enough about their Christian faith in public and that public officials should be "fervent advocates in the cause of Christ." And while Madison did allude to a "wall of separation," contemporary writers frequently refuse to allow Madison to provide his own definition of that "wall." According to Madison, the purpose of that "wall" was only to prevent Congress from passing a national law to establish a national religion.

None of the Founders mentioned fit the definition of a deist. And as is typical with those who make this claim, they name only a handful of Founders and then generalize the rest. This in itself is a mistake, for there are over two hundred Founders (fifty-five at the Constitutional Convention, ninety who framed the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights, and fifty-six who signed the Declaration) and any generalization of the Founders as deists is completely inaccurate.

The reason that such critics never mention any other Founders is obvious. For example, consider what must be explained away if the following signers of the Constitution were to be mentioned: Charles Pinckney and John Langdonfounders of the American Bible Society; James McHenryfounder of the Baltimore Bible Society; Rufus Kinghelped found a Bible society for Anglicans; Abraham Baldwina chaplain in the Revolution and considered the youngest theologian in America; Roger Sherman, William Samuel Johnson, John Dickinson, and Jacob Broomalso theological writers; James Wilson and William Pattersonplaced on the Supreme Court by President George Washington, they had prayer over juries in the U. S. Supreme Court room; and the list could go on. And this does not even include the huge number of thoroughly evangelical Christians who signed the Declaration or who helped frame the Bill of Rights.

Any portrayal of any handful of Founders as deists is inaccurate. (If this group had really wanted some non-religious Founders, they should have chosen Henry Dearborne, Charles Lee, or Ethan Allen). Perhaps critics should spend more time reading the writings of the Founders to discover their religious beliefs for themselves rather than making such sweeping accusations.

Now...... give me a quote or any other scrap of history that would show a single one of the Founding Fathers who promoted the Jewish faith..Hinduism....Islam....any other religion.... All anyone can do is to show me contorted attempts to prove one or another of the Founding Fathers rejected the Christian faith - which simply will not fly, because history is clear in this regard - the whole country was caught up in the Great Awakening - the only concern anyone had was that there would be no particular Christian denomination that would be made the "official religion". The practice of Christianity was considered a given. No one was concerned with other religions such as Islam or Hinduism. They just didn't want the government to tell them which denomination of Christianity they had to practice.

The main book used in school for teaching was the Bible. It was used to teach children to read, they learned their alphabet using Bible verses. They studied the Bible for the life lessons to be found there. Christianity permeated the entire populace in the same way water permeates a watermelon. To try and pull the public figures elected by these people to represent their wishes out of the people and portray them as being opposite the rest of the people in their views is not only ridiculous, it is revisionist history.
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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#869103 - 07/06/03 01:40 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Larry Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/01
Posts: 9217
Loc: Deep in Cherokee Country
Now, let's bust this thing wide open...... \:D

The Founding Fathers were Christian, and they represented a body of people who by and large were Christian. In other words, this was a Christian nation. The people who came here did so because they were looking for a place to practice their Christian faith in peace. The Pilgrims didn't come looking for a place to worship Allah, or Bhudda, or a frog. Let's chart this a little, what'dya say?......

First, go see what the Library of Congress has to say on the matter. Please take the time to read all 5 sections.

1490-1492 - Columbus' commission was given to set out to find a new world.[/b]
According to Columbus' personal log, his purpose in seeking undiscovered worlds was to "bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the heathens. .... It was the Lord who put into my mind ... that it would be possible to sail from here to the Indies ... I am the most unworthy sinner, but I have cried out to the Lord for grace and mercy, and they have covered me completely ... No one should fear to undertake any task in the name of our Saviour, if it is just and if the intention is purely for His holy service." (Columbus' Book of Prophecies)
April 10, 1606 - The Charter for the Virginia Colony read in part:[/b]
"To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God."
November 3, 1620 - King James I grants the Charter of the Plymouth council.[/b]
"In the hope thereby to advance the enlargement of the Christian religion, to the glory of God Almighty."
November 11, 1620 - The Pilgrims sign the Mayflower Compact aboard the Mayflower, in Plymouth harbor.[/b]
"For the glory of God and advancement of ye Christian faith ... doe by these presents solemnly & mutually in ye presence of God and one of another, covenant & combine our selves togeather into a civill body politick."
March 4, 1629 - The first Charter of Massachusetts read in part:[/b]
"For the directing, ruling, and disposeing of all other Matters and Thinges, whereby our said People may be soe religiously, peaceablie, and civilly governed, as their good life and orderlie Conversacon, maie wynn and incite the Natives of the Country to the Knowledg and Obedience of the onlie true God and Savior of Mankinde, and the Christian Fayth, which in our Royall Intencon, and The Adventurers free profession, is the principall Ende of the Plantacion.."
January 14, 1638 - The towns of Hartford, Weathersfield and Windsor adopt the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut.[/b]
"To mayntayne and presearve the liberty and purity of the Gospell of our Lord Jesus, which we now professe..."

The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut (often called the first American Constitution) said, We "enter into a combination and confederation together to maintain and preserve the liberty and purity of the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which we now profess." It also stated for the first time that men's rights come from God, as later stated in the Declaration of Independence.

The Great Law of Pennsylvania Colony said, "Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government and therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God..."
August 4, 1639 - The governing body of New Hampshire is established.[/b]
"Considering with ourselves the holy will of God and our own necessity, that we should not live without wholesome laws and civil government among us, of which we are altogether destitute, do, in the name of Christ and in the sight of God, combine ourselves together to erect and set up among us such government as shall be, to our best discerning, agreeable to the will of God..."
September 26, 1642 - The rules and precepts that were to govern Harvard were set up.[/b]
"Let every Student be plainly instructed, and earnestly pressed to consider well, the maine end of his life and studies is, to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternall life, John 17:3 and therefore to lay Christ in the bottome, as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and Learning. And seeing the Lord only giveth wisdome, Let every one seriously set himselfe by prayer in secret to seeke it of him Prov. 2.3."
Harvard College was founded on Christi Gloriam and later dedicated Christo et Ecclesiae. The founders of Harvard believed that "all knowledge without Christ was vain."

The charter of Yale University clearly expressed the purpose for which the school was founded: "Whereas several well disposed and Publick spirited Persons of their sincere Regard to & zeal for upholding & propagating of the Christian Protestant Religion ... youth may be instructed in the Arts & Sciences who through the blessing of Almighty God may be fitted for Publick employment both in Church & Civil State."

In addition to Harvard and Yale, 106 out of the first 108 schools in America were founded on the Christian faith.

April 3, 1644 - The New Haven Colony adopts their charter.[/b]
"That the judicial laws of God, as they were delivered by Moses ... be a rule to all the courts in this jurisdiction ..."
1647 - Governor William Bradford publishes Of Plymouth Plantation.[/b]
"Lastly, (and which was not least,) a great hope and inward zeall they (the Pilgrims) had of laying some good foundation, or at least to make some way thereunto, for ye propagation and advancing of ye gospell or ye kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of ye world; yea, though they should be but stepping-stones unto others for ye performing of so great a work ... their desires were set on ye ways of God, and to employ his ordinances; but they rested on his providence, and know whom they had beleeved."
April 21, 1649 - The Maryland Toleration Act is passed.[/b]
"Be it therefor ... enacted ... that no person or persons whatsoever within this province ... professing to believe in Jesus Christ shall ... henceforth be any ways troubled, molested (or disapproved of) ... in respect of his or her religion nor in the free exercise thereof ..."
April 25, 1689 - The Great Law of Pennsylvania is passed.[/b]
"Whereas the glory of Almighty God and the good of mankind is the reason and the end of government ... therefore government itself is a venerable ordinance of God ..."

1772 - Samuel Adams:[/b]
"The right to freedom being the gift of God Almighty ... The rights of the colonists as Christians may be best understood by reading and carefully studying the institutes of the great Law Giver which are to be found clearly written and promulgated in the New Testament."
May 20, 1775 - North Carolina passes the Mecklenburg County Resolutions.[/b]
"We hereby declare ourselves a free and independent people; are, and of a right ought to be, a sovereign and self-governing association, under control of no other power than that of our God and the general government of Congress."
Summer 12, 1775 - [/b]
Continental Congress issues a call to all citizens to fast and pray and confess their sin that the Lord might bless the land.
"And it is recommended to Christians of all denominations, to assemble for public worship, and to abstain from servile labor and recreation on said day."
Summer 2-4, 1776 - Declaration of Independence written and signed.[/b]
"We hold these truths ... that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights ... appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world ... And for the support of this Declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence..."

As the Declaration was being signed, Samuel Adams said: "We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. He reigns in heaven, and from the rising to the setting of the sun, let his kingdom come."
On the same day, Benjamin Franklin suggested that the national motto be: "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God."
Ben Franklin is widely regarded as the closest thing to a pagan that there was among the founders. Yet when the Constitutional Convention was helplessly deadlocked, it was he who implored them to pray, saying "God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?" He went on to say that they would not succeed without His help. If Mr. Franklin (the least Christian of the founders) were to make this same statement today at a meeting of the state Republican party, I wonder who would be the most likely to exclude him: The Christians or the revisionists?
1777 -[/b]
The First Continental Congress appropriated funds to import for the people 20,000 Holy Bibles as "the great political textbook of the patriots."
September 17, 1787 - The Constitution of the United States is finished.[/b]
At least 50 out of the 55 men who framed the Constitution of the United States were professing Christians. (M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company, Plymouth Rock Foundation., 1982).
Eleven of the first 13 States required faith in Jesus Christ and the Bible as qualification for holding public office.

The Constitution of each of the 50 States acknowledges and calls upon the Providence of God for the blessings of freedom.

The Constitution was written to "secure the Blessings of Liberty."

George Washington said regarding the Constitution: "Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the event is in the hand of God."
Thomas Jefferson, on his memorial: "God who gave us life, gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that the liberties are the gift of God?"
2 Corinthians 3:17: "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is Liberty."

1787 - James Madison, the "architect" of the federal Constitution and fourth president:[/b]
"We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future .. upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to sustain ourselves, according to the Ten Commandments of God."
1787 - [/b]
At an impasse of several weeks at the Constitutional Convention, Benjamin Franklin rose and sai:, "I have lived, Sir, a long time and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can arise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this." He then moved they resort to prayer.

The Library of Congress says "The result was that a religious people rose in rebellion against Great Britain in 1776, and that most American statesmen, when they began to form new governments at the state and national levels, shared the convictions of most of their constituents that religion was, to quote Alexis de Tocqueville's observation, 'indispensable to the maintenance of republican institutions.'" The fact is that not only were the founders overwhelmingly Christian, but even those few who weren't recognized the necessity of founding the republic on Christian principles.

Donald Lutz, in his book The Origins of the Constitution, devotes a chapter to the context of the Constitution. He says one way to identify the influences on American political thought is to examine the citations in public political literature of the time. In other words, to learn why the founders thought as they did, see whose works impressed them enough to be quoted. He found that from 1760 to 1805, not only was the Bible the most quoted book, it was quoted more often than all other sources combined. Those who would have us think our founders were not Christians just don't know where the founders got their ideas.

April 30, 1789 - Washington gives his First Inaugural Address.[/b]
"My fervent supplications to that Almighty Being Who rules over the universe, Who presides in the council of nations, and Whose providential aid can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a government instituted by Himself for these essential purposes."

"The propitious smiles of heaven cannot be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which heaven itself has ordained." All inaugural addresses and state constitutions refer to Almighty God, the author and sustainer of our liberty."

It has been claimed that Washington was not known to take communion. This argument is both poor logic and inaccurate. The taking of communion is about as closely tied to being a Christian as is wearing a tie to church: what are the facts? Nelly Custis (Martha Washington's granddaughter by her first husband) wrote "General Washington always received the sacrament with my grandmother." I wonder who's right, Nellys original works, or the revisionists?

Patrick Henry:[/b]
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ."
John Quincy Adams:[/b]
"The first and almost the only Book deserving of universal attention if the Bible." The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: "It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."
March 11, 1792 - President George Washington: [/b]
"I am sure that never was a people who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency which so often manifested in the Revolution."
1789-1795 - John Jay, first chief justice of the United States:[/b]
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
1797 - Washington's Farewell Address:[/b]
"And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion."
December 20, 1820 - Daniel Webster, Plymouth Massachusetts: [/b]
"Let us not forget the religious character of our origin. Our fathers brought hither their high veneration for the Christian religion. They journeyed by its light, and labored in its hope. They sought to incorporate ... and to diffuse its influence through all their institutions, civil, political and literary."
July 4, 1821 - John Quincy Adams:[/b]
"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity. From the day of the Declaration ... they (the American people) were bound by the laws of God, which they all, and by the laws of the Gospel, which they nearly all, acknowledged as the rules of their conduct."
1833 - Noah Webster:[/b]
"The religion which has introduced civil liberty, is the religion of Christ and his apostles ... This is genuine Christianity, and to this we owe our free constitutions and government ... the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scripture ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws."
June 8, 1845 - President Andrew Jackson asserts:[/b]
"The Bible is the rock upon which our Republic rests."
February 11, 1861 - Abraham Lincoln, farewell at Springfield, Illinois:[/b]
"Unless the great God who assisted (Washington) shall be with me and aid me, I must fail; but if the same Omniscient Mind and Mighty Arm that directed and protected him shall guide and support me, I shall not fail ... Let us all pray that the God of our fathers may not forsake us now."
1861 - Abraham Lincoln:[/b]
"It is the duty of all nations, as well as of men, to own their dependence upon the overruling power of God and to recognize the sublime truth announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history, that those nations only are blessed whose God is the Lord."
1863 - Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address:[/b]
"That we here highly resolve ... that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth."
Lincoln on the Bible:[/b]
"In regard to this Great Book, I have but to say, it is the best gift God has given to man. All the good the Savior gave to the world was communicated through this book. But for it, we would not know right from wrong. All things most desireable for man's welfare, here and hereafter, are to be found portrayed in it." (George L. Hunt, Calvinism and the Political Order, Westminster Press, 1965, p.33)
1884 - U.S. Supreme Court reiterates the Declaration's reference to our rights as being God-given.[/b]
These inherent rights have never been more happily expressed than in the Declaration of Independence, "we hold these truths to be self-evident" that is, so plain that their truth is recognized upon their mere statement "that all men are endowed" - not by edicts of emperors, or by decrees of parliament, or acts of Congress, but "by their Creator with certain inalienable rights and that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and to secure these" - not grant them but secure them "governments are instituted among men."
1891 - The U.S. Supreme Court restates that America is a "Christian Nation."[/b]
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian ... this is a religious people. This is historically true. From the discovery of this continent to the present hour, there is a single voice making this affirmation ... we find everywhere a clear definition of the same truth ... this is a Christian nation." (Church of the Holy Trinity vs. United States, 143 US 457, 36 L ed 226, Justice Brewer)
1909 - President Theodore Roosevelt:[/b]
"After a week on perplexing problems ... it does so rest my soul to come into the house of The Lord and to sing and mean it, 'Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty' ... (my) great joy and glory that in occupying an exalted position in the nation, I am enabled, to preach the practical moralities of the Bible to my fellow-countrymen and to hold up Christ as the hope and Savior of the world."
1913 - President Woodrow Wilson:[/b]
"America was born to exemplify the devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the Holy Scriptures."
1952 - US Supreme Court defines the "Separation of Church and State."[/b]
"We are a religious people and our institutions presuppose a Supreme Being ... No Constitutional requirement makes it necessary for government to be hostile to religion and to throw its weight against the efforts to widen the scope of religious influence. The government must remain neutral when it comes to competition between sects ... The First Amendment, however, does not say that in every respect there shall be a separation of Church and State."

Early in this century, some of the "intellectuals" in our society became enamored with philosophical bantering of some European philosophers of the last century. They read the doctrines of Freud, the Materialism of Feurbach, nihilism of Nietsche, dialectic of Hegel, the communism of Marx, and of behaviorist-socialism, existentialism, rationalism, fabianism and humanism. From this gathering of intellectuals was formed the Intercollegiate Socialist Society and in promoting socialism, they became advocates of the ideology of Karl Marx. Chapters of this organization, now the League for Industrial Democracy, were formed in 125 colleges by the 1930s.
They were joined by John Dewey, who became president of the organization in 1941. John Dewey, the "godfather of progressive education," was also a member of the American Humanist Association and signed its Manifesto in 1933. Humanism teaches atheism, autonomous man, amorality, evolution and one-world socialism. Through Dewey's influence at Columbia University, the teachings of humanism permeated our educational system and excluded from our textbooks the moral and biblical teachings which were so much a part of our American culture. Now after several generations of Americans have been subjected to this "godless" philosophy through our schools, what are the results?

It has created a spiritually apathetic society that hardly murmured when in 1962, citing no precedents, a liberal Supreme Court abolished prayer from the public schools and the next year abolished Bible reading from the schools.

Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are based on Judeo-Christian teachings. The textbook of these teachings in the Holy Bible. It is the "Owners Manual" or "The Book of Instructions" for our nation. The Founding Fathers and many others in position of authority ever since have recertified that fact. "America is a Christian nation." This does not mean that all the people were or are Christian. It merely means that there was a Christian consensus and all our founding documents, laws, moral codes and institutions are based on Christian principles from the Bible.

Now.....chew that over for a while........
_________________________
Life isn't measured by the breaths you take. Life is measured by the things that left you breathless

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