Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 3 of 14 < 1 2 3 4 5 ... 13 14 >
Topic Options
#868774 - 06/25/03 11:16 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Thirty-four percent of all quotes were from the Bible, and another 60% of the quotes were from men who were using the Bible to make their point. God's word was important to the nation's founders.
[/b]
Jolly, you don't take this too seriously do you? A good half these quotes are likely from Thomas Paine (in the "Age of Reason") seeking to debunk the fallacies, misstatements, internal inconsistencies, and just plain untruth of traditional readings of the Bible. If you were looking for a more modern thinker whose work is filled with Biblical quotations and citations, a good place to start would be Madelyn Murray O'Hair.

Top
Piano & Music Accessories
#868775 - 06/25/03 11:21 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
I don't know if half the quotes are from Paine, or not. I did think the percentages were interesting.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#868776 - 06/25/03 11:32 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:

Shantinik: What happened in 1805?

[/b]
There were two large religious revivals in the U.S., both imported from England, in the early part of the 19th Century -- the first was around 1805 (and marked by the founding of the American Bible Society -- prior to this, Thomas Paine's "Common Sense" outsold the Bible by about 3 to 1), and the second just before 1820 (and marked by the founding of the American Mission Society at the Haystacks Monument at Williams College -- my alma mater).

Prior to 1805, you see almost no arguments about, for example, "Biblical inerrancy" in American Christianity, even among the followers of Cotton Mather. The "new lights" - believers in a more mystical view of religion (Christianity being the only one they knew) -- rejected formalistic reading of the Bible, seeking its "spirit" in the day-to-day world. The "new lights" were cross-denominational, and held sway in many states for quite some time (especially Rhode Island and upstate New York.) The Founding Fathers (as I already noted with the adoption of the Constitution and the First Amendment) were not out of line with general thinking in the rest of the country -- Christian, well yes, because that is what they knew, but assuredly rejected from membership in Jolly's church. Bible-quoting? Well, yes, but just as likely for the purpose of proving its errors. And, as already noted, they FEARED Christianity and the negative impacts it could have on the country, and this is reflected in both the Constitution and the First Amendment, both adopted with broad public debate and support.

The "new lights" continued on into the 19th Century. Among Quakers, the whole debate is quite interesting because in the late 18th century, they would have been thought of as conservative theologically (relative to what Franklin, Jefferson, Madison, etc. believed.) But, in New England, a group of "new light" Quakers evolved, with a "progressivist" interpretation of revelation. They didn't reject the Bible, but since Quakers believe in continuing revelation, they argued that not only is revelation continuing, but actually gets BETTER all the time! In other words, it is not so much that the New Testament is untrue, simply "old hat". They were ridden out of Friendlydom. Many of them became followers of Joseph Smith (Latter Day Saints) as the latest revelation; others became transcendalists and became the backbone of the utopian communities of Hope Farm and Brook Farm, and hobnobbed with Emerson and Alcott. The rest mostly became universalists, later merged with the Unitarians.

More than you ever wanted to know (but just the tip of a large iceberg ;\) )

Top
#868777 - 06/25/03 11:58 AM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
Shant,
Where can I read more on this?

Ariel,
I've enjoyed reading since I was small. But, I have pretty eclectic tastes as to what I read. I hop from subject to subject. Barnes and Noble was a lot of fun but the hours were crazy. We use to do "overnights" when we changed displays and traded out books. Fortunately, I didn't spend a lot of money on books because we could borrow anything we wanted. I'd borrow it and then if I liked it I would buy it.
Right now I'm reading "Letters from Prison" by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Are you familiar with him?
He was one of the few Christian pastors who were martyred during the Holocaust. It's beautiful and inspirational even for non-Christians.
From your posts I gather you travel a lot. Is this true?
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
#868778 - 06/25/03 12:02 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Jolly wrote:
 Quote:
They reduced the number [of quotes] to those that had a significant impact on the founding fathers and the result was 3,154 quotes...Thirty-four percent of all quotes were from the Bible, and another 60% of the quotes were from men who were using the Bible to make their point.. [/b]
These, to me, are puzzling statements logically. What exactly do they mean? First, how could these profs determine which quotes had a "significant impact" on these great patriots?

Secondly, what does the 60% statistic mean? Still more perplexing...That the "founders" were quoting from a quote, and the final quote has special signficance BECAUSE the first quoter was relying on the Bible for rhetorical power?? (whew, all in one breath!)

Don't quite get it. Also confused about what these polit-sci profs were doing. Was this part of an actual research project, or were they just collecting suitable quotes for an anthology or to print an article in "Focus on the Family"? Was a personal after-hours recreational (or religious) pursuit or what? These things do matter you know, Jolly.

A number of you all see fit to ridicule research in the Social Sciences (though I bet it would be canonized if it bolstered a favored argument - as you are doing here, tho' I admit that you are not one of those who takes the name "psychology" in vain - so far as I know anyhow! ;\) )

But the fact of the matter is, if something is to be considered proper research, it has to be "objective". That means among other things that the people conducting it don't have an ax to grind or the opposite (whatever a suitable metaphor would be).

If these two profs for example, are born-agains seeking to make a point to buttress their particular camp, I'm sorry to say, it really doesn't mean a whole lot. They might as well be Jr. High School kids combing the web - the credibility of the sources in terms of their accuracy, context and selection bias are just as meaningless...

Rvaga pointed out that one of the quotes alluded to in my link was guilty of spin, just because it left out the word "as" before the lead sentence, to wit:
"As[/b]...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion..." You know what a dirty word "spin" is these days. My whole link can actually be considered "spin", in fact, as it is not the product of my genuine research from primary sources - I just wanted to present some "food for thought" and discussion!

That's why sound statistics - not the damned lies kind - are at the foundation of any research project, in the hard or soft sciences.

By the way, are you ever going to answer my question about their faith from the honest perspective of your own (see above)? I think "Deists" believe in God too, as do most Unitarians I know.

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

Top
#868779 - 06/25/03 12:12 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Shantinik said after his most appreciated post (which I haven't had time to do justice to yet):
 Quote:
More than you ever wanted to know (but just the tip of a large iceberg ) [/b]
Wrong, wrong, wrong! Thanks ever so much. I REALLY appreciate it. I don't know if you happened to read my confession about having failed to pay attention to anything in my obligatory H.S. course in American History, as a form of rebellion. (I also deliberately failed the AP test attached to it, as a form of protest - against being made to take two exams. I analyzed the entire American Revolution in some fashion as based on George Washington's dissatisfaction with his wooden false teeth - and other such trivia.)

And now - as these things go (and naturally there is much more)- I bitterly regret it. Thanks for helping me fill the gap! Renauda and Peggy too.

Ariel \:\)

Ariel
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

Top
#868780 - 06/25/03 12:26 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Ariel Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/07/03
Posts: 3028
Loc: NE
Peggy,

This will have to be my last post of the day as I have procrastinated too much in doing something I need to deliver in a matter of hours. However, I did want to reply to you too.

Yes, I have indeed heard of Dietrich Bonhoeffer (without your post right in front of me I'm sure to be mispelling his name). He was a saint. It must be a wonderful book. Don't dare take it out of the library right now, having just returned twelve biographies late - all partially read (they were taken out to give my son a selection in doing a school project), but it sounds like one to put on my list!

And about traveling - well, yes and no. That is, yes, I used to travel a lot (though itt didn't seem like traveling because I stayed in one place for years at a time); but, no, because I have been rooted to this spot for longer than I care to admit..And now I am such a mess orthopedically, I don't see how I can travel again. Hopefully, someday, maybe with one of my strong sons to carry my luggage (and me too, at this rate!).

I love learning languages - your classic xenophile. That's one of the reasons I know so little about this country, as I now realize for the first time!

Ariel \:\)
_________________________
If this is coffee, bring me tea. If this is tea, bring me coffee.
~Abraham Lincoln~

Top
#868781 - 06/25/03 12:38 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
I will have to try to figure out where to send you for the best sources. Most of my general church history is background reading for some more serious work I do on Quaker history (in which Paine, Major General Nathaniel Greene, Stephen Hopkins, and Dickinson are important figures, though not as much as John Woolman.) My readings on the Revolution are broad, and new biographies of Jefferson in particular are very fruitful. (Joseph Ellis' Jefferson: An American Sphinx, although flawed (there's nothing on his 2nd term in office), is terrific at getting under his skin so that we can see, if but dimly, what made him tick. There is also a new edition of "Jefferson's Bible" now available. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0...2105826-9056866

By the way, Jolly, every line in this book is a "quote from the Bible" -- are they included in the count?

In some ways, though, Madison is more interesting -- Jefferson played a very distant role in the Constitutional debates.)

Got some of my dates reversed. The BRITISH Bible Society came to the U.S. in 1805 -- the official founding of the American Bible Society was 1816 (one of the reasons for the delay is that many of the denominations -- including Friends and northern Baptists -- were very reluctant to jump on board.) The American Foreign Mission Society dates from the Haystack Monument incident of 1806. Here's a picture

http://www.williams.edu/library/archives/manuscriptguides/haystack/bio.html

I use to lay a blanket near the monument and study (on those few, rare days when it wasn't too cold!)

P.S. -- Here's a special treat for the Canadians: (sometimes one might wonder what all of this has to do with music...well...

http://www.sharontemple.ca/music.html )

Finally, the two clauses of the 1st Amendment (and all the discussion around them) clearly indicate that the Founders intended both Freedom FROM Religion (religious tests, state observances, etc. which they themselves couldn't pass), and Freedom OF Religion (prohibiting laws that would curtail minority religious practices). In both cases, the only threat was Christianity.

Top
#868782 - 06/25/03 01:22 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
piqué Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 5484
i am really mystified by the b.s. the right wingers here keep slinging around about how "freedom of religion" doesn't mean "freedom from religion."

i mean, what is the point of this? i certainly do cherish my freedom from religion. are you trying to tell me i'm not entitled to be non-religious if i am a citizen of the u.s.?

i feel just as strongly that religion is about one of the worst inventions ever by humankind, as you, jolly, feel about its positive value. are you trying to tell me that those of us who want nothing to do with religion in any form must adopt some sort of religion simply because we are u.s. citizens? or pray in schools? or say the pledge of allegiance with the word "god" in it? or listen to the president of ALL the people blather on about jesus christ in his public speeches at public functions?

i will never, never, never, never accept that.

what makes a country a christian country?

1. that its founders were christian? that's irrelevant.

2. that the majority of its citizens believe in christianity? absolutely not. if all the christians died tomorrow from a rare virus contracted only by reading the new testament, and the majority religious belief in this country became hindu, would that make this a hindu country? nope.

and anyway, majority does not rule in a republic. as unfortunately we saw in the last presidential election. you can't have it both ways.

3. that its laws are explicitly based on christian beliefs? yes. that is the only test. and the u.s. fails that test. rather, in the u.s. the laws are quite explicitly NOT based on christian or any other religious beliefs.

what ticks me off is that the current presidential administration is obviously trying to change that. his personal religious beliefs have absolutely no place in public policy making that affects all the people.

including us heretics from the jefferson mold, who belong to no "isms."
_________________________
piqué

now in paperback:


Grand Obsession: A Piano Odyssey

Top
#868783 - 06/25/03 01:42 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:
if all the christians died tomorrow, and the majority religious belief in this country became hindu, would that make this a hindu country?[/b]
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

Top
#868784 - 06/25/03 01:44 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:


i am really mystified by the b.s. the right wingers here keep slinging around about how "freedom of religion" doesn't mean "freedom from religion."

[/b]
You think you are mystified. To us up here in "Godless" Canada- a country, I might add, that was founded on the Christian principles of the Church of England through an Act of the British Parliament- it seems quite odd that Americans today would even debate the issue being that its founding fathers would have wanted to reject all things associated with British Absolutism. I quite agree then that "Freedom from Religion" is very much a part of the American political tradition.

Yet as you say, Pique, there appears to be elements of the society who wish it to be otherwise. Could it be that that is one of the many reasons why the Federal G'ovt is so determined to take charge of education?

_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

Top
#868785 - 06/25/03 02:09 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
The words "separation of church and state" do not appear that I know of, in any founding documents. I believe the first use was in a 1947 ACLU case.

Americans of the pre-1900 era, would probably chortle with laughter at this discussion.

In 1774, the first meeting of what would be known as the Continental Congress was opened by prayer, from an Episcopalian minister (of course, some may not consider the Episcopalians Christians, but I stiil do).

As I said, in my view, and that of many others, the U.S. was founded on Christian principles, as a Christian nation, by Founding Fathers who were predominately Christian.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#868786 - 06/25/03 02:24 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
Actually, Jefferson talked about the need for "a wall of separation between church and state", and the first clause of the 1st Amendment was specifically proposed to carry out that end. In practice, they meant a wall between Christianity and state (Rastafarians and Hindus weren't an issue.)

"TO Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802."

The important thing to note here is not that Jefferson thought there "should be" a wall of separation between church and state, but that he saw it as specifically enshrined in the intent of the Establishment clause. (and I think he oughtta know. :rolleyes: )
-----

The best single book on this subject (it is HUGE and expensive, but has all the documentary history) is "The Complete Bill of Rights
The Drafts, Debates, Sources, and Origins" edited by Neil Cogan, Oxford University Press --

http://www.oup-usa.com/search/jsp/d oc...=bill+of+rights

We managed to get one on sale for only $50!

Jolly, you are welcome to believe what you like -- I just hope that some day folks with beliefs resembling those of the Founding Fathers apply to your membership committee. (or better, that they BE the membership committee.) ;\)

Top
#868787 - 06/25/03 02:34 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
gryphon Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/09/01
Posts: 11678
Loc: Okemos, MI
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
Actually, Jefferson talked about the need for "a wall of separation between church and state"[/b]
But it was in a letter, wasn't it? Not in any founding document of our country. But I think the real debate is "what does that mean?"
_________________________
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
MSU - the university of Michigan!
Wheels

Top
#868788 - 06/25/03 02:44 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by gryphon:
 Quote:
Originally posted by shantinik:
Actually, Jefferson talked about the need for "a wall of separation between church and state"[/b]
But it was in a letter, wasn't it? Not in any founding document of our country. But I think the real debate is "what does that mean?"[/b]
I have cited the letter above. The documents in the Cogan book make it clear that Jefferson was correct about the intent, and the very structure of the 1st amendment, in two clauses, shows the two purposes: 1) Freedom FROM Religion; and 2) Freedom OF Religion. You can say what you like, but the founders, who saw that they had not gone far enough in simply leaving God and Jesus out of the Constitution, were extremely clear in their intent.

Top
#868789 - 06/25/03 02:46 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
The words "separation of church and state" do not appear that I know of, in any founding documents. I believe the first use was in a 1947 ACLU case.

Americans of the pre-1900 era, would probably chortle with laughter at this discussion.

In 1774, the first meeting of what would be known as the Continental Congress was opened by prayer, from an Episcopalian minister (of course, some may not consider the Episcopalians Christians, but I stiil do).

As I said, in my view, and that of many others, the U.S. was founded on Christian principles, as a Christian nation, by Founding Fathers who were predominately Christian.[/b]
For the sake of discussion, Jolly, let us assume you are right.

What specific implications do you see this having today? What would be different in the way we do things in this country? What would you like to see or believe should be different in the way we do things in this country because of this "Christian" bent of the Founding Fathers?
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#868790 - 06/25/03 02:49 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
 Quote:
Quoting Renauda. Could it be that that is one of the many reasons why the Federal G'ovt is so determined to take charge of education?
Renauda, it's not the Federal Government, it's Bush and the ultra-conservative right wingers who are running the Republican party. If Bush had his way, every child would be forced to say the pledge (with God in it), the Lord's Prayer, and praise George three times, before starting school each day. :rolleyes:

I'm a Christian, who fiercely believes in TOTAL seperation of church and state. I believe this was the founding father's intent, and that they were absolutely brilliant in doing so. What their own religious beliefs were, is irrelevant. You can talk about religious "freedom of" or "freedom from" or "freedom to", from now til doomsday, but it still has no place in government.

The right-wingers and moral-majorityites, have done this country a great dis-service by pushing their religious and moral agendas into the political arena where they don't belong. Now Bush, is trying to make even more headway with his so-called "faith based initiative", which is nothing more than government meddling in religion. Bush would also like to take away a woman's right of choice on abortion, sneak religion into public schools, reduce or eliminate basic human services for those who need them most like the indigent, children, and the elderly and on and on ...

Anyone still not believe me when I say that it is Bush and the Republicans who are taking away Americans civil and individual rights? When you really think about it, it's scary. I'm afraid we may wake up one day and find our country has lost much of what we once thought guaranteed by our Constitution and Bill of Rights. We also may wake up and realize that we let big business put them there, and they could very well keep them there.

Top
#868791 - 06/25/03 03:04 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
instead of referring to it tangentially, let us consider the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nowhere that I can read in the amendment, does it say anything about separation of Church and State, especially when Church is defined in its' looser terms, as meaning the assembly and practice of religion.

To consider the background, most of the Founding Fathers were from colonies that had State sponsored religions (11 of 13, I believe?). The amendment means what it says, there will be no state sponsored religion, nor a nationally preferred religion, as in England, at that time.

Americans are free to practice whatever religion they choose (as long as they break no civil laws such as murder), or are free to practice no religion at all. What the amendment does not say, and it could have been added if so desired, is separation of Church and State.

The writers of the Constitution went to great lengths to write in the separation of powers in the original document. If they were so inclined to agree on that principle of separation in the amendments, does not one think they would have written it in, if they wished to make that point clear?
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#868792 - 06/25/03 03:36 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
instead of referring to it tangentially, let us consider the First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nowhere that I can read in the amendment, does it say anything about separation of Church and State, especially when Church is defined in its' looser terms, as meaning the assembly and practice of religion.

To consider the background, most of the Founding Fathers were from colonies that had State sponsored religions (11 of 13, I believe?). The amendment means what it says, there will be no state sponsored religion, nor a nationally preferred religion, as in England, at that time.

Americans are free to practice whatever religion they choose (as long as they break no civil laws such as murder), or are free to practice no religion at all. What the amendment does not say, and it could have been added if so desired, is separation of Church and State.

The writers of the Constitution went to great lengths to write in the separation of powers in the original document. If they were so inclined to agree on that principle of separation in the amendments, does not one think they would have written it in, if they wished to make that point clear?[/b]
But Jolly,

What do see see as the implications of this? What do you think we should be doing differently based on your interpretation of all of this? What SPECIFICALLY do you feel needs to be changed in this society to reflect your view of what the Founding Fathers intended this society to be?

Or are things the way you think they should be and all of this discussion is just for intellectual fun?
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#868793 - 06/25/03 04:00 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
jodi Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 6959
Loc: The Evergreen State (WA)
Well said, bcarey.

Jodi

Top
#868794 - 06/25/03 04:03 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
kluurs Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/24/02
Posts: 3739
Loc: Chicago
I see no purpose in more closely linking Christianity and our nation's government.

Jesus noted that his kingdom was not of this earth.

His communication was to individuals, asking them to take up his message - of worshiping God and of loving others, especially one's enemies and those less fortunate than one's self.

Of course, were our Government based on the principles of Jesus, one would expect that the wealthy would tithe more for the welfare of the poor, the sick and the elderly, assuring that no one would go without food, shelter or medical care. And because we love all people, we would want to assure that educational opportunities afforded to children would be universal and not based on income. There's more, but I doubt if the GOP would go for it.

Would never work. Let's keep things separate.

Ken

Top
#868795 - 06/25/03 04:17 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Renauda Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 5066
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:


....What the amendment does not say, and it could have been added if so desired, is separation of Church and State.

The writers of the Constitution went to great lengths to write in the separation of powers in the original document. If they were so inclined to agree on that principle of separation in the amendments, does not one think they would have written it in, if they wished to make that point clear?[/b]
All right, then if they deliberately left it out you are saying that they did not recognize the separation of church and state. Correct? And if they did not recognize the separation of church and state what role would the church(es) have played in the political life of the country? Here in Canada the British North America Act of 1867 was very specific in this regard and clearly stated that Church and public education would go hand in hand. In English Canada the role of the Church of England (although in practice the Presbyterian and Methodist Churches also maintained public schools)was to educate English speaking Protestant children, in Quebec the Roman Catholic church would provide education for French speaking Catholics.
_________________________
"The older the fiddle, the sweeter the music"~ Augustus McCrae

Top
#868796 - 06/25/03 04:21 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
shantinik Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/23/01
Posts: 4271
Loc: Olympia, WA
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Nowhere that I can read in the amendment, does it say anything about separation of Church and State, especially when Church is defined in its' looser terms, as meaning the assembly and practice of religion.[/b]
So I have a choice: I can believe Jolly and his tortured reasonings as to the purpose and intent of the amendment, or I can believe Thomas Jefferson, who both played a hand in its intent, lived through the period, writing 11 years after the event and knowing ALL the players, and acting in his official capacity as President; (and can read the notes of the authors, as included in the volume already cited.)

Sounds like an interesting contest.

Jolly, I don't intend to convince you. Your mind is already made up, and to change it for the one in your back pocket might be a little scary (having done so on occasion myself.) But, fortunately, in this case, there are such wonderful primary sources of information, that is fun to allow ourselves (including anyone else on this board) to have a feast.

But you are in fact correct about one thing: the Founding Fathers were NOT concerned about the assembly and practice of religion. No -- they didn't worry about Islam or Confucianism or Taoism or Jainism. They were concerned about the assembly and practice of CHRISTIANITY, the only religion about which they feared establishment.

Top
#868797 - 06/25/03 04:54 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
bcarey Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 3378
Loc: North Carolina
Think I'll place my bet on Thomas Jefferson! \:D

Top
#868798 - 06/25/03 05:14 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
When one is swimming in water, do you make constant comments about the water, or do you just swim?

At the time we are speaking of, Christianity, or a form of it, was omnipresent in the colonies. If a colonist had walked into the Continental Congress, and seen a Bible laying upon a desk, it would not have even elicited a comment.

The ubiquitous never does.

Now as to the form that religion takes, or the varying degrees of worship, or the application of the religion itself, the Founding Fathers were like men of any other day, or time. There was always the search for meaning.
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#868799 - 06/25/03 05:15 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
Of course, many consider Jefferson to be among the worst Presidents the U.S. has ever had. :p
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#868800 - 06/25/03 05:27 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14051
Loc: Louisiana
_________________________
www.coffee-room.com

Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

Top
#868801 - 06/25/03 05:39 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
.rvaga* Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 2046
Loc: Portland, Oregon
 Quote:
Shant's quote:
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions. . .[/b]
Wow, things really have changed!! Certainly Jefferson's perspective was reflecting the freshness of a new, small federal government, which was trying to prove legitimacy by deliberately staying out of influencing people's "opinions." Back then, if the federal government fixed potholes, I'll bet my street would be smoooooth as glass.

 Quote:
bcarey:
Renauda, it's not the Federal Government, it's Bush and the ultra-conservative right wingers who are running the Republican party. If Bush had his way, every child would be forced to say the pledge (with God in it), the Lord's Prayer, and praise George three times, before starting school each day. . .

. . .The right-wingers and moral-majorityites, have done this country a great dis-service by pushing their religious and moral agendas into the political arena where they don't belong.
Wow. What state are you in. . . or are you always this filled with rage?
===========

 Quote:
Renauda:
Here in Canada the British North America Act of 1867 was very specific in this regard and clearly stated that Church and public education would go hand in hand.
Renauda, in the links you suggested on the education thread, I noticed that in Canada private/religious schools are under the same federal funding umbrella as public schools. Interesting difference between Canada and the U.S. Or is this called "ironic?"

Top
#868802 - 06/25/03 05:42 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
 Quote:
Originally posted by piqu:

i feel just as strongly that religion is about one of the worst inventions ever by humankind, [/b]
You know what's neat about religion pique?

You can play the piano at church - some of the most glorious music - in front of 100s of people.
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

Top
#868803 - 06/25/03 05:48 PM Re: The Founding Fathers Weren't Christian
justme Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/11/03
Posts: 4418
Loc: Englewood, FL
 Quote:
Originally posted by Jolly:
Of course, many consider Jefferson to be among the worst Presidents the U.S. has ever had. :p [/b]
It's amazing what good press Jefferson got and is still getting.

Thank you for the link. I found it extremely interesting.
Peggy
_________________________
justme

http://toosad4words.blogspot.com/

Top
Page 3 of 14 < 1 2 3 4 5 ... 13 14 >

What's Hot!!
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
ad (Casio)
Celviano by Casio Rebate
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Interview with Leon Fleisher
by vlhorowitz
10/01/14 04:27 AM
Interview with Leon Fleisher
by vlhorowitz
10/01/14 04:26 AM
Interview with Leon Fleisher
by vlhorowitz
10/01/14 04:26 AM
First sonata
by amt976
10/01/14 03:38 AM
Is it necessary a classic base to play virtuosic jazz ?
by Nahum
10/01/14 03:18 AM
Who's Online
63 registered (amt976, beeboss, AZ_Astro, alexbergauer, Barly, 15 invisible), 1043 Guests and 12 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
76384 Members
42 Forums
157911 Topics
2319103 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission