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I just posted this link embedded in an esoteric talk with Renauda (mostly) about Christian heresies. Then I thunk about it and decided it might make for some interesting discussion among a wider audience.

So, comments all you red-blooded, hairy-chest-thumpin' Right-Wing Christian Scriptural and Constitutional Fundamentalists?

The Founding Fathers Weren\'t Christian

By the way, read my posts and check out the links on Mithraism in Jolly's "To heck With the Rich!" Thread (whatever) if you REALLY dare to have your most cherished beliefs challenged. Next December 25th, be sure to wish each other a "Merry Mithrasday"! Good thing for me, there's no cyber-witch burning, huh? :p Of course in Europe now, I might have to post links to Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson to reply...

*looks around for a 10-foot pole*

Twelve of the thirteen colonies original constitutions speak of God.

The most indelible thought of Valley Forge, is the sight of Washington praying alone in the snow.

As Franklin said, "He who shall introduce into the public affairs the principles of a primitive Christianity, will change the face of the world." Or perhaps this one, "Except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it", uttered at the 1787 Consitutional Convention.

Or maybe, "The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ, and His Apostles" - Noah Webster

"The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed" - Patrick Henry

"The reason that Christianity is the best friend of Government is because Christianity is the only religion that changes the heart." - Thomas Jefferson

"If we make religion our business, God will make it our blessedness." - John Adams

"The highest story of the American Revolution is this: it connected in one dissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - President John Adams

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers. And it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - Chief Justice John Jay

"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson

I'd go on, but y'all wouldn't believe it anyway. Some folks can see truth easily, others have to be hit between the eyes with a 2x4, and still others will deny truth forever, if it doesn't fit their pre-concieved notions. I could post another page of quotes, but I figure your mind is already closed.

It would be just as silly to say that Israel was not a Jewish state.

David Burton posted a much better essay on this board, on this very topic, than I could ever write. I suggest all find it and read it - it is well worth it.

Jolly,

Religious or "spiritual" is one thing, Christian is another - especially as it's so narrowly defined by many (all caps) CHRISTIANS today - ie. those who have truly achieved Grace (and thence Salvation) by Faith and Scriptural literalism.

To be "culturally Christian" - yes, that's how it all started here (but the demographics are changing). In terms of the private beliefs of these intensely individualistic, creative, free-thinking men...seems to me, it doesn't jibe.

And a hundred out-of-context quotes from a handy "Refute a Non-Believer" reference guide, don't change that...

Here's my proposal on this...

Why doesn't the Congress introduce a bill that would essentially say that America IS a Christian nation, established, maintained, etc.?

Let it come to a vote. Do you think it would pass? If not, why not? If so, why?

Nina

Actually, there is one good source on this argument. The U.S. Constitution -- the first Constitution in the history of the world to leave God out of it. (and the only reference to religion is a negative one.)

The founding fathers knew precisely what they were doing it. They talked about it at length. And when they submitted it to the would-be states, the states discussed it (after all, as Jolly correctly points out, virtually all their early charters DID have God or Jesus in them.) One of the "founding fathers" Patrick Henry, urged rejection of the Constitution explicitly on the grounds that God and Jesus were left out.

But there was absolutely overwhelming consensus, in every state, with not a single exception, to ratify the Constitution put together by the Founding Fathers which left God and Jesus out of it.

But, wait, if that wasn't enough, there were members of the Constitutional Convention still concerned that the government might enjoin a particular form of worship or belief, specifically Christianity, the only belief system in colonial America that they had to fear. So the first, the very first words of the very first Amendment to the Constitution:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion".

The ONLY religion with enough sway in America to be of concern to them was Christianity, (and hence the only one they had cause to address), and they took explicit steps to ensure that it did not become enshrined in American government. Again, adopted by overwhelming consensus, and ratified by the states.

Nina,

It would have to be a Constitutional amendment.

Probably have to repeal the 1st Amendment, too.

In early May this very question was raised in the thread I described above. I tend toward the view that while some of the founding fathers may have had some serious reservations about organized religion they were were still fundamentally Christian. Certainly all would have in one way or another been heavily influenced cy Calvinism and the Church England. And as someone pointed in the other thread Freemasonry may have also played a role. In fact I suspect that it was because of latter's- and the Roman Catholic Church for that matter- association with the Absolutist monarchism that references in the Constitution were deliberately left out. A brief look at the context of the times seems to lend credence to this notion. This from my post on May 9:

"The Enlightenment was an era of reaction against organized religion. It also witnessed the Agricultural Revolution and the early development of the Industrial Revolution particularly after 1760 when Watt patented the steam engine. It is also considered the Age of Reason giving rise to rationalists such Descartes and Kant. It also brought idealist and empirciist philosophers such as Berkely, Locke, Hume and Diderot. For the first time also atheism was openly discussed by the philospher Bayle. These Philosophers and many in the intelligentsia of the times embraced deism of Rousseau and pantheism of Spinoza rather than embracing established religious dogmas. Beethoven, a product of the Enlightenment, had little use for any organized religion but remained a highly spiritual person all his life. Following Hobbes in the 17th Century, Voltaire and Rousseau both wrote extensively on the issue of a social contract between ruler and ruled. If there were any principles among such people it was the principles of republicanism and constitutionalism. I would argue that both owe more to Hellenistic antiquity than to either the Old or New Testaments. Even the legal system can be traced to Platonic and Aristotlean ethics- although English Common Law and Christian tradition also play a significant role in the process of law. Historically it also gave rise to the political aspirations of the bourgeoisie, or middle class- it was after all they who owned the means of production. Hence the American War of Independence and the French Revolution. Both sought to overthrow the old semi-feudal absolutist system and replace it with a representative form of government that took into account the needs of the growing propertied middle class.

Perhaps it was actually the principles of a social contract between government and the people that was the prime mover behind the nation's founding...."

I therefore do not want to dismiss entirely the position of Jolly. I will put my money that in one way or another Calvinism had a pretty great influence on the emergence of republicanism. Even if we look at Rousseau the writer of the republican tract The Social Contract, we find that in his early years he spent a considerable amount of time in Calvinist Geneva as a young apprentice.

Details, details! You're right, of course.

Well, they WERE Christian, in the main. They (as a whole) rejected the Trinity, the Resurrection, the miracles, the special divinity of Jesus. Many of them rejected original sin and the remission of sin. We know this because they wrote (some of them copiously) to that effect. Jefferson, the Christian, even wrote his own Bible -- taking all of these out. So they were Christians (but would likely find counterparts only among modern day Quakers, or a few Christian Unitarians.)

The only one who would be welcomed in a modern evangelical church would be Patrick Henry and, since he opposed the Constitution, one might be hardpressed to call him a "Founding Father".

Religious discourse in America changed markedly after the two religious revivals of 1805 and 1820.

or Christian Scientists.

I don't really care of they were Christian or not, or if they were, what type. Nor do I think it was relevant then nor relevant today.

The United States of America, that country established on the American Constitution, is NOT a Christian country. True enough, it grew out of European political thought of the day which was heavily influenced by 1600 years of Christian thought. And true enough, the Founding Fathers undoubtedly had ideas that grew out of the same place.

BUT....

They wrote a Constitution and added a Bill of Rights which not only did not mention God, in general, but certainly made no reference to any specific religious belief. Indeed, the Bill of Rights specifically prohibited the government from establishing any specific religion as the "state" religion and denies any religion the right to impose itself on the country.

It seems just as silly to me to argue that Christianity did not influence the political thought of the day that brought about this country as it is to argue the Judaism did not influence Christian thought. Clearly in both cases, the influences are clear.

But simply because both influences are clear does not make Christianity simply Judaism with a twist any more than it makes the United States a Christian country.

LP:

Point taken. If anything the founding fathers believed in the total separation of church and state in keeping with prevalent views of social and political thought of the times. Indeed they would have viewed mixing religion with affairs of state as Absolutist thinking. I have no problem with that....but as Shantinik indicated something changed first in 1805 and then again in 1820.

The Founding Fathers did not believe in total seperation of chuch and state, as evidenced in some of their letters of the time.

They believed in freedom of religion, they believed there should be no state church, but they did not believe in freedom from religion.

As for latter day interpretation of the Constitution most will point to the 1892 ruling - which I'm sure Shant knows by heart (this is familiar ground).

Furthermore, in a more practical vein, considering this is a case of too many piano nuts with too much time on their hands:

Quit thinking like pointy-headed intellectuals, and get out and talk to a few ordinary folks. Ask them what they think, without coercion.

I think a majority would easily agree that America is essentially a Christian country, even those who aren't Christian.

Perception is reality.

Neither does our current government. They pray before sessions of Congress. Heck, even West Point makes their cadets go to Christian chapel.

They DO????

Pretty much mandatory.

Dear Jolly,

If what you say is true, "perception is reality," then Steinway is the piano against which all others are measured.

You rail about situational ethics or whatever it is you call non-concrete thinking, and then you say something like this!!!!!!!!

I'm amazed even you would say something this incongruent.

With amusement,
Tony