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Topic Options
#870045 - 03/30/03 12:07 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
The common man is not capable of having rational thoughts. The, in your words educated, people that are protesting capitol punishment which is acknowledged by the bible are the same ones that are proponents of abortion, which is prohibited by the bible. Are these rational thinking moral people?
[/b]
Why do you argue that the common man is not capable of rational thought? I assume you feel you are capable of it. Do you feel that you are intellectually superior to the common man? Or are you arguing that those who do not agree with your view of morality can only come to another view because their thinking processes are impaired?

To me, those who are opposed to abortion but so defiantly in favor of the death penalty and war are just as incongruent in their thinking as the examples you give above. But I would not say these people are incapable of rational thought or have impaired thinking processes. I may disagree with them, but they, themselves, are capable of justifying what seems to me to be contradictions in thinking. Thus I accept their views, while disagreeing with them, as valid for them.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#870046 - 03/30/03 12:19 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
I cannot believe what I just read (posted by lb).


I did not know that you still had that kind of integrist in the western world.

And George Bush is one of them ?

I am an atheist or rather an agnostic.

I have been in spiritual path for 35 years and I do think the Human Rights are the only moral law mankind needs.

But if you do not believe in the Bible, you do not have moral sense ?

What an insult to the intelligence and sensitivity of man !

What a lack of confidence in one's own ability to think and judge what one thinks/feels is right or wrong !

There is deep worry to have is this kind of fanatics has the right to buy guns and start wars.

You mean one just started a war ?

I didn't know.

Come on man, where have you been ?

You won't believe it : I have spend all the time I did not work on the most amusing and friendly of forums.

\:D

Sorry lb, but I really think you should have brain surgery before it's too late.
I hate to see such selfrighteous unintelligent insulting opinions in a place where people are trying to improve their judgement and understanding.

You think I am pretty intolerant myself ?

That's right. When I stifle, I have to kick in all directions. It is such a horrible feeling.
Those same people who wanted Christ dead and asked the Americans (sorry, the Romans) to do the job shared your certainties and moral selfrighteousness.
Your words are a crucifixion of the mind and spirit of man.
Amen.
\:D
_________________________
Benedict

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#870047 - 03/30/03 12:28 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
Lazy pianist,
? Or are you arguing that those who do not agree with your view of morality can only come to another view because their thinking processes are impaired?[/b]

What are you on, LP ?
Can I have some ?
lb does not have a view : his is a parrot in disguise.

If you go to church, you do not need a thinking process. It's all in the book.

Who said so ?

lb said so.
He as been saying it since thousands of years.

You mean it started before our Lord Jesus Akhbar died for us and rose the third day ?

Way before that.
Before man used his reason, he used tradition as a crutch.

I see.

LP : stop being a traitor ,rejoin the team of those who are searching, let go of the team of those who have found.
Do not be the other side of lb, LP.
\:D

lb : it is not personal. But religion is doing enough harm now. Just keep it for what it is : the enrichment of the human spirit or/and soul.
Moral is for men to create and take good care of. That's what democracy is about.
Moral is a process : a very difficult and painful one.
But how would you know ?
Sorry, lb, I did it again.

Jodi, I want to start this brain tai chi chuan on April 7th. Please ask your instructor.
;\) :rolleyes:
_________________________
Benedict

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#870048 - 03/30/03 12:57 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:
What are you on, LP ?
Can I have some ?
lb does not have a view : his is a parrot in disguise.

If you go to church, you do not need a thinking process. It's all in the book.

Who said so ?

lb said so.[/b]
Benedict

I do not have any trouble with those who go to Church. I do not even have trouble with those, like lb, who build their entire morality based on a strict interpretation of the Scriptures they adhere to.

The problem I have is that so many seem to become intolerant of iothger viewpoints and feel morally superior to those who do not believe as they do.

I keep trying to understand why they do this; what makes them decide their morality is somehow superior to that of others. And I keep trying to understand why so many feel they are not only capable of judging others but seem to feel it is mandatory they do.

I would really like to hear from lb to see if he does believe what it sounds like he says he believes. If he does, I will not be able to agree with him, but at least I will have a better understanding of where he is coming from and who he is as a human being.

To me, understanding others is a good thing.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870049 - 03/30/03 01:03 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
To me, understanding others is a good thing.[/b]

I can't believe what I am reading.

Why don't you do something really useful, like asking insistantly that all the troops go home now before it is too late and SHAME is on you for eternity.

While you work on understanding others, we feel hopeful that indeed a person is not necessarily doomed to repeat the same thing over and over.

Please go on understanding.
Once you have understood, please explain it to us.

I like joking with you because you are so peaceful.
I hope you do not feel hurt by my heavy bombing.
\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#870050 - 03/30/03 01:13 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by benedict:

I hope you do not feel hurt by my heavy bombing.
[/b]
Not at all. Indeed, I don't even mind those who call me a communist, a traitor or whatever else I have been called in the past few weeks.

What frustrates me most are those whose minds are closed. To me, this is a tragedy because the human mind and human heart have such a large capacity for greatness when they are open.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870051 - 03/30/03 01:42 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
To me, this is a tragedy because the human mind and human heart have such a large capacity for greatness when they are open.[/b]

When do you start opening your mind and heart ?
We are all waiting.
\:D

If you succeed, we'll give it a try.

Beware of germs when there open though. Life can be a messy process.
\:\)
_________________________
Benedict

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#870052 - 03/30/03 02:07 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
benedict

You have exceeded my expectations of you!!!

Did I touch a nerve?

lb

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#870053 - 03/30/03 02:52 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
LP

Is there no earthly reason at all that no matter how heinous that you could justify any war or capitol punishment?

lb

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#870054 - 03/30/03 04:04 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
LP

Is there no earthly reason at all that no matter how heinous that you could justify any war or capitol punishment?

lb[/b]
lb

A couple of weeks ago I was asked to explain what it would take for me to justify a war -- and I did so. Feel free to check the archives.

I was told that my criteria would make almost all wars impossible. This is true. War should always be the VERY last resort, used only when nothing else can work. Mankind is better than a bunch of savages who have to solve problems through violence, death and destruction. I want war to be the VERY last solution, used ONLY after any and all other alternatives have been tried and found not working.

As far as the death penalty is concerned.. no, I cannot justify it. The death penalty has, it seems to me, three primary purposes.

1) To keep society safe from those who would harm others.

One need not kill a person to achieve this.

2) To punish a person severely for the crime they have done.

Again, one need not kill them to punish them severely. Indeed, there are those on this Board, Jolly being one I believe, who argue the death penalty is more humane than life in prison.

3) To seek revenge for the victims and/or society. While I understand the victims wanting revenge, I reject it as a motive worthy of a civilized society.

Now that I have answered your questions, lb, let's go back to mine based on your response to Steve Miller:

 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:


The common man is not capable of having rational thoughts. The, in your words educated, people that are protesting capitol punishment which is acknowledged by the bible are the same ones that are proponents of abortion, which is prohibited by the bible. Are these rational thinking moral people?[/b]
Why do you argue that the common man is not capable of rational thought? I assume you feel you are capable of it. Do you feel that you are intellectually superior to the common man? Or are you arguing that those who do not agree with your view of morality can only come to another view because their thinking processes are impaired?
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870055 - 03/30/03 04:43 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
The problem I have is that so many seem to become intolerant of iothger viewpoints and feel morally superior to those who do not believe as they do.
You seem to have done a pretty fair job of demonstrating this yourself.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#870056 - 03/30/03 04:59 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
A couple of weeks ago I was asked to explain what it would take for me to justify a war -- and I did so. Feel free to check the archives.

I was told that my criteria would make almost all wars impossible. This is true. War should always be the VERY last resort, used only when nothing else can work. Mankind is better than a bunch of savages who have to solve problems through violence, death and destruction. I want war to be the VERY last solution, used ONLY after any and all other alternatives have been tried and found not working.
The trouble with this is that, for you, there never seems to be a point at which all other options have been tried and found wanting. There never is a point at which talking, stalling and delaying has gone on long enough. In the current situation, when pressed to provide alternatives to war, you have no alternative beyond a continuation of what hasn't worked for twelve years.

War is a horrible thing and something I believe should be a last resort as well but, at some point, you have to come to the realization that all other options have been tried and continuing them is only delaying the inevitable. Delay that can mean worsening that inevitable conflict by a scale of magnitude. To say that you believe war should be the last result (as if we honestly don't) while meaning that it should never be an option is to evade the responsibility of making the truly hard choices.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#870057 - 03/30/03 05:35 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
LP

The term common was not meant in a derogatory manner. It was not my choice of words but to the post I was replying to. Would average or most have been less offensive to you?

You have expressed strong convictions towards war and capitol punishment, I don't necessarily agree with you, but I do agree it would be great if they didn't exist. To eliminate them though is going to take a different approach than what we are presently doing.

I have equally strong feelings concerning abortion. Think of it 5000 every day just in the U.S., doesn't that number even raise the slightest inkling in you? If it doesn't I am wasting my time.

I am not judging or damming the abortionist or the person that gets one, that goes against my grain, and that judging and damming should be left to a higher power. What does bother me is the moral character that is evolving that something like this is occurring and it has become socially acceptable.

I am very involved in the pro-life movement. The big thing with the pro-life movement is to protest at abortion clinics. I expressed my opinions about the war protestors and these opinions apply to the pro-life movement also. I will not allow anyone I am involved with participate in any protest on public property. Public protest for any reason should be abolished. In most cases in a public protest some fanatic gets carried away and someone innocent is harmed or their rights are violated. We do hold public discussion and informational meetings. These meetings are held behind closed doors off of public property, but no one wanting to attend is excluded.

While the casually throwing away of 5000 lives per day is in my opinion abominable, I have deeper concerns. As a Christian I was raised to believe that a man has a soul and upon his death this soul, if he is baptized, goes to heaven. I believe that this soul is present at conception when the life of that person starts. My concern for these souls is far greater than judging the abortionist or the person getting the abortion.

In acts of war or capitol punishment, someone is guilty of an extreme offence; whether the action is justifiable is debatable. In the case of an abortion an innocent is condemned body and soul and it is socially acceptable. Is this rational?

lb

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#870058 - 03/30/03 05:39 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
lb Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 1731
Loc: Indiana
LP

I hope that your gray matter hasn't been polluted with poor wine and bad cheese like some others. \:D \:D \:D

lb

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#870059 - 03/30/03 06:36 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
The trouble with this is that, for you, there never seems to be a point at which all other options have been tried and found wanting. There never is a point at which talking, stalling and delaying has gone on long enough. In the current situation, when pressed to provide alternatives to war, you have no alternative beyond a continuation of what hasn't worked for twelve years.
[/b]
This is simply does not represent what I have said. At one point, someone (Larry I think ) asked me what I thought of the US involvement in Kosovo and I stated I supported our involvement, the way we got involved and the shared responsibility we have there.

It is true that I believe this war to be unjust and immoral. I am certainly not alone in this assessment. I do not think we had tried all that could have been tried before this war began. I still do not. I believe we have been lied to about this war -- its reason and its purpose --and I believe we have been played for fools by the Bush Administration. I do not believe we need to be in this war to ensure the security of the United States. Indeed, I believe this war makes us less secure. I also believe the cost up until this point in terms of our diplomatic relations has been too much. I believe the money that is being and will be spent in long term costs is far to great -- and that we will have acheived very little in terms of US security.

Clearly, others have seen the same information I have seen and read it differently. So be it.

At the same time, I pray that all of you are right -- that the war will be short and there will be little long term effects. That the troops will be home soon and there be as few casualities on either side as possible. That Mr. Bush will come through with his promise to force a solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That Iraq will be a democracy and will lead the way to other democracies being established in the Middle East. That the peoples of the Middle East will see that what we did was justified and will come to view us at least with respect, if not affection. That Saddam Hussein will be gone and the Iraqi people will live in freedom. That Anti-American terrorism will be dealt a major, if not fatal blow, and will at least be crippled.

But I do not believe most of this will really occur -- because I don't believe any of this is the real reason we have gone in there -- with the exception of the removal of Saddam Hussein.

You and I will disagree about this. I hope you are right.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870060 - 03/30/03 06:56 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by lb:
LP

The term common was not meant in a derogatory manner. It was not my choice of words but to the post I was replying to. Would average or most have been less offensive to you?[/b]
Actually, it was not the adjective I was wondering about. It was the concept that people -- be they common, average or whatever -- are not capable of rational thought, implying (I believe) what they think and the values they act on in their life are not rationally developed.

I simply reject what seems to me to be a very elitist attitude. Perhaps it is not elitist, but it sure sounds like it.

 Quote:

In acts of war or capitol punishment, someone is guilty of an extreme offence; whether the action is justifiable is debatable. In the case of an abortion an innocent is condemned body and soul and it is socially acceptable. Is this rational?
[/b]
You might be surprised, lb, but while I am pro choice I agree with you about abortion. I simply do not see it as something the government should be regulating because there are, legitimately, different views of whether or not the child has a soul upon conception. I liked Bill Clinton's statement in his campaign in 1992 -- abortion should remain legal, safe and rare.

The concept of man having a soul -- which I agree with you we have -- is a matter of faith, not knowledge. The point at which God creates and melds the soul with the body is a further axiom of faith, not knowledge. Indeed, until the 1920's even the Catholic Church taught the soul was infused in the body at the end of the first trimester. To me, then, those who do not have the same beliefs as your faith brings you to, or who consider themselves under attack by the fetus (child if you will), can be considered quite rational in deciding on an abortion.

Would I support every abortion? No. Most I would not. Am I concerned about the souls of those being aborted, assuming they have souls? No, I trust in the compassionate love of God to deal with this.

You and I will likely not agree on the validity of abortion at times. But I would strongly disagree with you that most women who have abortions are acting irrationally.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870061 - 03/30/03 07:17 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
This is simply does not represent what I have said. At one point, someone (Larry I think ) asked me what I thought of the US involvement in Kosovo and I stated I supported our involvement, the way we got involved and the shared responsibility we have there. [/b]
I remember when Larry asked you this in "The Bush Doctrine Applied" thread and this is how you responded:

 Quote:


quote:

Originally posted by Larry:
Lazy Pianist, what is your opinion of the war in Kosovo?

The war in Kosovo was an immoral act of barbarism -- even though the warring parties justified their waging war because they saw their enemy as being a direct threat to them.

I was proud of the US's involvement with other countries in forcing a diplomatically brokered agreement to end that war, and I am pleased that US troops, through NATO, became part of the peace keeping force there after the war had ended. I am also pleased that the US has supported the International Court which is trying the war criminals and is working closely with that court to convict them.
Excuse me if I don't interpret this as unambiguous support for military action in Kosovo.

 Quote:
It is true that I believe this war to be unjust and immoral. I am certainly not alone in this assessment. I do not think we had tried all that could have been tried before this war began. I still do not. I believe we have been lied to about this war -- its reason and its purpose --and I believe we have been played for fools by the Bush Administration. I do not believe we need to be in this war to ensure the security of the United States. Indeed, I believe this war makes us less secure. I also believe the cost up until this point in terms of our diplomatic relations has been too much. I believe the money that is being and will be spent in long term costs is far to great -- and that we will have acheived very little in terms of US security.[/b]
I have to wonder if your abiding mistrust of GWB is not clouding your judgment somewhat here.

 Quote:
Clearly, others have seen the same information I have seen and read it differently. So be it.

At the same time, I pray that all of you are right -- that the war will be short and there will be little long term effects. That the troops will be home soon and there be as few casualities on either side as possible. That Mr. Bush will come through with his promise to force a solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. That Iraq will be a democracy and will lead the way to other democracies being established in the Middle East. That the peoples of the Middle East will see that what we did was justified and will come to view us at least with respect, if not affection. That Saddam Hussein will be gone and the Iraqi people will live in freedom. That Anti-American terrorism will be dealt a major, if not fatal blow, and will at least be crippled.

But I do not believe most of this will really occur -- because I don't believe any of this is the real reason we have gone in there -- with the exception of the removal of Saddam Hussein.

You and I will disagree about this. I hope you are right.[/b]
So do I.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#870062 - 03/30/03 07:28 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
I remember when Larry asked you this in "The Bush Doctrine Applied" thread and this is how you responded:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry:
Lazy Pianist, what is your opinion of the war in Kosovo?

The war in Kosovo was an immoral act of barbarism -- even though the warring parties justified their waging war because they saw their enemy as being a direct threat to them.

I was proud of the US's involvement with other countries in forcing a diplomatically brokered agreement to end that war, and I am pleased that US troops, through NATO, became part of the peace keeping force there after the war had ended. I am also pleased that the US has supported the International Court which is trying the war criminals and is working closely with that court to convict them.
Excuse me if I don't interpret this as unambiguous support for military action in Kosovo.[/b][/QUOTE]

I don't see why not?

The war that the ethnic groups were waging on each other was an act of barbarism -- and the barbarism was not limited to the ethnic cleansing that was going on. You would disagree with me on this?

I also don't see how what I said of my support of the United States and NATO countries who entered in to put an end to that war could be construed as anything but support.

As to my distrust of Mr. Bush coloring my view of the war -- well, of course it does. Mr. Bush and his Administration are the ones who have wanted, pushed for and finally decided to start this war. The fact I deeply distrust this Administration is gong to have an impact on my view of the justification for this war.

But leaving that aside, assuming I thought Mr. Bush was a saint -- I still would find this war to be unjust and immoral. I believe a preemptive war when there is no immediate and direct threat to the country carrying it out is, by my definition, immoral.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870063 - 03/30/03 07:32 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
Like in Kosovo.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

Top
#870064 - 03/30/03 11:28 PM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Like in Kosovo.[/b]
Are you implying that our limited involvement in Kosovo is even close to being the same as the full scale invasion and occupation of Iraq?

Remember, part of the just war theory is that the action needs to be proportional to the threat. In Kosovo it was. Here it is far from proportional to the threat.

A limited military action done in concert with our main military alliance partners is VERY different from what Mr. Bush and his cohorts have done here.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870065 - 03/31/03 01:33 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Tony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 151
Loc: Houston
Doing the work of three men?

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#870066 - 03/31/03 04:09 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
lb
Is this rational?[/b]

No. What you write is not rational.
Psychologist call it "rationalization" : it is a defence mechanism that will make you talk in a pseudo rational to prevent you from feeling pain from repressed material.

You seem to be a victim of a huge SuperEgo (introjection of parental obligations and interdictions): you just repeat like a parrot what you have been taught over years to believe.

Or maybe you were "born again" and underlying pain is overwhelming and forces you to inflict your extravagant religious creeds to the face of everybody.

You write you are prolife : how would you know, if you do not use your own judgement and just repeat what you were told.

I am not nice and courteous ?
Well, I promise you I do make great efforts. But probably we will reach an understanding before Decembre 31,2003.
\:D
_________________________
Benedict

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#870067 - 03/31/03 04:24 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
David_J Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/07/02
Posts: 175
Loc: Australia
Gardener and JByran
I'll deal with this last piece of idiocy

This backs up what I'm talking about. Lower tax brackets actually have more take home pay then some in the higher tax bracket. In your scenario I wouldn't WANT a raise! So I'd better start slacking off on the job![/b]

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
*ahem*

That's why it's called a Tiered rate!
If you remember what the folks in grade 3 used to teach:
Tiered means multi layered!!!

Which means!
If I earn 50k I'll pay no tax for my first 20k, and 30% for the next 30k!!!!

If I earn 51k I'll pay no tax for my first 20k, 30% for the next 30k, and 40% for the extra 1k!!!!

Oh jolly good show. It's not rocket science.
If you can tell me how earning less is beneficial please do... I can't wait to graduate and tell my boss... oh don't worry 'bout renumeration... or bonuses... I'd rather do without them... they'll tax me over 100% for them...

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#870068 - 03/31/03 06:30 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Lazy Pianist:
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
Like in Kosovo.[/b]
Are you implying that our limited involvement in Kosovo is even close to being the same as the full scale invasion and occupation of Iraq?

Remember, part of the just war theory is that the action needs to be proportional to the threat. In Kosovo it was. Here it is far from proportional to the threat.

A limited military action done in concert with our main military alliance partners is VERY different from what Mr. Bush and his cohorts have done here.[/b]
We still have not heard anything like a rational alternative to war in this case from you beyond vague references to "...all things that could have been tried before this war" and, once again, things that have yielded nada for tweleve years. Only carping.

Surely you are not suggesting that some "limited military action" is called for here. I would be interested to hear what "limited military action" would relieve a brutal thug like Saddam Hussein of his terror toys.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870069 - 03/31/03 08:08 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
JBryan Offline
9000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/02
Posts: 9798
Loc: Oklahoma City
 Quote:
Originally posted by David_J:
Gardener and JByran
I'll deal with this last piece of idiocy

This backs up what I'm talking about. Lower tax brackets actually have more take home pay then some in the higher tax bracket. In your scenario I wouldn't WANT a raise! So I'd better start slacking off on the job![/b]

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol
*ahem*

That's why it's called a Tiered rate!
If you remember what the folks in grade 3 used to teach:
Tiered means multi layered!!!

Which means!
If I earn 50k I'll pay no tax for my first 20k, and 30% for the next 30k!!!!

If I earn 51k I'll pay no tax for my first 20k, 30% for the next 30k, and 40% for the extra 1k!!!!

Oh jolly good show. It's not rocket science.
If you can tell me how earning less is beneficial please do... I can't wait to graduate and tell my boss... oh don't worry 'bout renumeration... or bonuses... I'd rather do without them... they'll tax me over 100% for them...[/b]
I think I can assume that you were referring to me when you mentioned this "JByran" person. Anyway, what you are describing is, indeed, not rocket science and is precisely how our current tax rates work. That is why they are called "marginal" rates. I was not the one suggesting that I would make less when I get a raise. I am suggesting that your rates are too high. 40 and 50% marginal rates are, in my view, confiscatory. Especially when you factor in the 15.3% FICA that comes right off the top. There is no rational reason that the government should lay claim to that much of someone's earnings. That is, of course, unless your only aim is to punish those who produce wealth.
_________________________
Better to light one small candle than to curse the %&#$@#! darkness.

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#870070 - 03/31/03 09:32 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
That is, of course, unless your only aim is to punish those who produce wealth.[/b]
Why would anyone punish the employees who produce the wealth?
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

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#870071 - 03/31/03 09:48 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
Lazy - you asked "Why punish the employees that produce the wealth? It's not that simple. The employees produce only a fraction of the wealth. If our company pays someone 1862.19 we must deposit 3168.29 into our payroll account Where does the extra 1306.00 go? Do you know what employers pay over and above the amount that the employee gets to take home added to the deductions for Federal and State Withholding, FICA Medicare and Medicare matching, FUTA and SUI? Any idea? Do you know how much Workman' Comp costs per employee? or liability insurance? Have you ever hired anyone or complied with state and federal regulating agencies or paid the money to do so?
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, ├Ľun (apple in Estonian)

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#870072 - 03/31/03 10:28 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by apple:
Lazy - you asked "Why punish the employees that produce the wealth? It's not that simple. The employees produce only a fraction of the wealth. If our company pays someone 1862.19 we must deposit 3168.29 into our payroll account Where does the extra 1306.00 go? Do you know what employers pay over and above the amount that the employee gets to take home added to the deductions for Federal and State Withholding, FICA Medicare and Medicare matching, FUTA and SUI? Any idea? Do you know how much Workman' Comp costs per employee? or liability insurance? Have you ever hired anyone or complied with state and federal regulating agencies or paid the money to do so?[/b]
Actually, yes I have and yes I do hire people and comply with state and federal regulatory agencies.

If the workers are only creating a small percentage of the wealth, then you really need to get rid of them. But you won't. Why? Because without them, no money flows and the business is gone.

Unless you are self employed or not working at all, whatever you do is getting done by the workers. Whatever money your company is bringing in, is coming in because of employees. Even if you consider money flowing into a company because of the capital markets, both the debt and equity markets will fund you only to the extent that the employees are creating adequate wealth for the company to either repay its debt or to make it a sound investment.

The wealth of any company comes only because of its employees. The Board of Directors can have as many meetings as it wants, but if the employees are not producing, the company fails.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870073 - 03/31/03 10:44 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
Lazy Pianist Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/03
Posts: 973
 Quote:
Originally posted by JBryan:
We still have not heard anything like a rational alternative to war in this case from you beyond vague references to "...all things that could have been tried before this war" and, once again, things that have yielded nada for tweleve years. Only carping.[/b]
Actually, JBryan, you have heard many ideas from me on this whole thing. You, however, are more interested in winning the argument than in listening.

Perhaps had Mr. Bush started his Administration -- way back when he first thumbed his nose at the world over Kyoto -- with what he said in his campaign, that America will be respected if it wields its power and influence with humility, we would have found that we would not be in a full scale war right now -- acting alone and without support of our primary allies, with massive demonstrations against us throughout the world and governments who want to support us walking tight ropes between their desire to be with us and placating their citizens.

Perhaps, had Mr. Bush listened to the French, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese and most of the nations at the United Nations and enhanced the inspection process, we would finished destroying the missles that are now being fired into Kuwait. Perhaps had he continued to push for stronger and more aggressive inspections, we would be now be setting the stage for the rest of the world putting so much pressure on Hussein and providing enough incentive to the Iraqi's that they, themselves, would be closer to toppling that regime -- perhaps even with just a few well placed bullets.

But we will never know. What we will know, though, is the cost of war, the cost of occupation, the cost of thumbing our noses at the other powers in the world, the cost of further inflaming hatred of the United States as our forces become sitting targets in the middle of the most volatile region in the world -- further destabilized by our actions.

Diplomacy was working. Hussein was in a box. He was not in a position to threaten us or anyone else. The inspectors could have continued for a long time -- years in fact -- and all that time, Hussein would have remained in the box, a threat to no one.

And we would not have lost what we have lost at the UN, in our international relations, the soldiers who will not come home, the good will that had been ours after 9/11, the respect of the world. We would have lost none of that -- and now we have lost all of it.

Yep, JBryan, there were many other options than war. Not as efficient, I suppose. But certainly as effective and far less costly.
_________________________
WMD = W[/b]ords of M[/b]ass D[/b]istortion
----------------------
Seek those who seek the truth.
Avoid those who have found it.

Top
#870074 - 03/31/03 10:59 AM Re: Jolly, Jbryan, and Larry
benedict Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/21/02
Posts: 2519
Loc: European Union
LP
Perhaps, had Mr. Bush listened to the French, the Germans, the Russians, the Chinese and most of the nations at the United Nations and enhanced the inspection process, we would finished destroying the missles that are now being fired into Kuwait. Perhaps had he continued to push for stronger and more aggressive inspections, we would be now be setting the stage for the rest of the world putting so much pressure on Hussein and providing enough incentive to the Iraqi's that they, themselves, would be closer to toppling that regime -- perhaps even with just a few well placed bullets.[/b]

1░ You could not ask the US Army to put pressure on the Iraki regime for months and months
2░ The 1441 asked that Saddam shows how he had destroyed WMD, not play hide and seek
3░ The Iraki summer was approaching. Maybe you should go and help your Iraki friends
4░ The US Army and the British Army have great problems. Saddam and his friends have killed hundreds of thousands of Kurds, Shiits, sons in-law and you can say **** like that.
5░ Stop being a traitor and a fool and don't try and make us look somewhere else : Saddam will go and you'll apologize for being a traitor AND a fool
6░ I started respecting you. Here we go : you start again and try take us all for suckers.
Why don't you go NOW and ask if it is too late for the human shields program.
7░ Stop being a traitor and a fool. Stop taking us for suckers.

_________________________
Benedict

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